$10 matchplay+$10; player gets a BJ; payoff?
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32 members have voted
December 29th, 2010 at 2:21:55 PM
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Had a rather interesting question come up: A friend was playing some $10 matchplays at blackjack, and he got a blackjack (the dealer didn't have one). The dealer paid him $20, and he went through the roof. His argument was that the matchplay made his bet effectively $20, so he should have gotten paid $30. The dealer countered that the matchplay said "even money bets only". The floorman backed her up. I then intervened, and said that while there was some justification for only paying the COUPON $10, the original bet should have been paid 3:2, thus, a payoff of $25. This seemed to placate everyone to some degree, and he got paid that $25, and walked out, not feeling very thrilled about the whole thing. The upshot for the casino is that the entire game was held up for several minutes while they tried to figure out a way to screw my friend out of $5/$10.
I actually think it's a scummy, nickel-and-dime tactic to not treat the bet as a $20 bet, and pay it accordingly, and I'm sure that the casino saves, oh, $300 or so a year in return for pissing off dozens of customers, a brilliant business tactic that exemplifies what is currently wrong with the casino industry. I can actually see some rationale for paying the bet "only" $25, but $20?? Come ON. But that's what the dealer AND the floorman tried to do (and if they had insisted, I would have called Gaming right there and then, and REALLY made things fun for them).
What do you think? Does anyone have a definitive answer (such as a Gaming ruling) on what SHOULD be the policy here?
I actually think it's a scummy, nickel-and-dime tactic to not treat the bet as a $20 bet, and pay it accordingly, and I'm sure that the casino saves, oh, $300 or so a year in return for pissing off dozens of customers, a brilliant business tactic that exemplifies what is currently wrong with the casino industry. I can actually see some rationale for paying the bet "only" $25, but $20?? Come ON. But that's what the dealer AND the floorman tried to do (and if they had insisted, I would have called Gaming right there and then, and REALLY made things fun for them).
What do you think? Does anyone have a definitive answer (such as a Gaming ruling) on what SHOULD be the policy here?
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
December 29th, 2010 at 2:34:08 PM
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I completely understand them not paying the 3:2 on the coupon but they should on the cash. Then again, it would be weird treating them differently. Strictly from a customer service POV, I'd say they should pay $30. If they want, they can tell their dealers/pits to warn players about this situation (if match play is used, BJ pays even money) and if they forget to warn a player and it happens they pay full 3:2.
Here's an additional question: If BJ pays even money with a match play, should you still play blackjack or is black/red on roulette better?
Here's an additional question: If BJ pays even money with a match play, should you still play blackjack or is black/red on roulette better?
Its - Possessive; It's - "It is" / "It has"; There - Location; Their - Possessive; They're - "They are"
December 29th, 2010 at 2:52:11 PM
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I've had it paid all three ways. I'm pretty sure there's no Gaming Commission ruling covering this, other than the fact that they have to pay you if you win.
The Wiz would have a better idea on this, but blackjack isn't the best game to use with a matchplay - even with generous rules. You're better off playing craps or baccarat. Roulette is close. BJ just has the advantage of having the most available tables.
Quote: ahiromuHere's an additional question: If BJ pays even money with a match play, should you still play blackjack or is black/red on roulette better?
The Wiz would have a better idea on this, but blackjack isn't the best game to use with a matchplay - even with generous rules. You're better off playing craps or baccarat. Roulette is close. BJ just has the advantage of having the most available tables.
December 29th, 2010 at 2:55:27 PM
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Quote: ahiromuI completely understand them not paying the 3:2 on the coupon but they should on the cash.
Recently I played a match play $100 coupon at the mohegan sun. I had a bj and was paid 3/2 on the $100 cash , and even on the coupon. It seems petty, how much are they really saving?
IF YOU PLAY "PLAY TO WIN"
December 29th, 2010 at 2:58:56 PM
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I forgot that I could check this out myself: The average (good) BJ game has a HA of .5% and a 1:1 pay increases it to ~2.8%. Therefore, double-zero roulette is still much worse - almost double.
Its - Possessive; It's - "It is" / "It has"; There - Location; Their - Possessive; They're - "They are"
December 29th, 2010 at 3:02:31 PM
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Quote: only1choiceRecently I played a match play $100 coupon at the mohegan sun. I had a bj and was paid 3/2 on the $100 cash , and
even on the coupon. It seems petty, how much are they really saving?
They saved exactly $50 just on you. Wizard says even money costs 2.27%, so craps don't pass would have higher EV. They normally won't let you double the coupon either.
December 29th, 2010 at 3:02:49 PM
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We'd have to read the fine print on the coupon before saying what is the right thing.
It may say "Valid for even money bets only." In that case, the BJ should have paid $20.
If usually says "Valid for BlackJack; Baccarat; Craps Pass, Come or Field; Roulette Red or Even" etc. In that case, it should have paid $30. Or at least $25.
What happens if you use it at a BlackJack table, and you get a Double Down or Split situation?
It may say "Valid for even money bets only." In that case, the BJ should have paid $20.
If usually says "Valid for BlackJack; Baccarat; Craps Pass, Come or Field; Roulette Red or Even" etc. In that case, it should have paid $30. Or at least $25.
What happens if you use it at a BlackJack table, and you get a Double Down or Split situation?
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ —————————————————————————————————————
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
December 29th, 2010 at 3:20:25 PM
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Actually,
Many pay 3:2 on the blackjack as a courtesy, because these places want their customers to be fully happy, just as they would have been paid 3:2 on a cash $20 value. Many Even money bets have slight bonuses, like 3:2 blackjack. On games where the the even-money bet has larger bonuses, like three card poker's ANTE bet, the player is asked to play it on the PLAY bet, which is fully even-money, but gets the coupon back if the hand pushes (although some KEEP the coupon on a push as a "cheap manouever").
The casino manager's goal is to NOT get the customer to say, "Boy, is the place CHEAP or WHAT??!!"
So as long as the player is paid "up to even money face value," the house can decide to be chintzy or generous.
Some houses ALSO forgive the commission where it applies, so if you play a commission-based Pai Gow game or bet the 4 opr 10 in craps, you are also forgiven the commission.
These match plays and free plays show the class of the casino.
Many pay 3:2 on the blackjack as a courtesy, because these places want their customers to be fully happy, just as they would have been paid 3:2 on a cash $20 value. Many Even money bets have slight bonuses, like 3:2 blackjack. On games where the the even-money bet has larger bonuses, like three card poker's ANTE bet, the player is asked to play it on the PLAY bet, which is fully even-money, but gets the coupon back if the hand pushes (although some KEEP the coupon on a push as a "cheap manouever").
The casino manager's goal is to NOT get the customer to say, "Boy, is the place CHEAP or WHAT??!!"
So as long as the player is paid "up to even money face value," the house can decide to be chintzy or generous.
Some houses ALSO forgive the commission where it applies, so if you play a commission-based Pai Gow game or bet the 4 opr 10 in craps, you are also forgiven the commission.
These match plays and free plays show the class of the casino.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
December 29th, 2010 at 3:27:43 PM
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I believe people who have this ongoing need to use cheap coupons and think they were printed just to hand over casino money, ought to be thankful for whatever they're given on a win and leave it at that. I see the same problem at the slot clubs all the time. Players always think they were suppose to get more than they've earned so they whine like big babies and hold up the line for stupid reasons.
December 29th, 2010 at 4:01:13 PM
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Beats me. However they did say "even money bets" ... not even money payouts. So as with just about every bet in the entire casino and certainly the bets at blackjack... the amount is determined when the bet is made and cards start to be dealt. You can't add to it after that and you can't snatch some of it back either. So I don't see why the casino is trying to do pretty much the same thing as a cheating player.
Even Money Bets means that if you go to a roulette table ... you can't use their coupon on a Straight Up bet or even a Dozens bet.
Even Money Bets means that at Craps you can do a Line Bet, not a center bet or a place bet. Query as to a Field Bet though?
What I do know is that this question has arisen in that casino before and it is the fault of the casino if any questions STILL remain about it. Either change the wording on the coupon or educate the dealers or whatever, but get the problem solved. The casino created it and any annoyance and delay about it is the fault of the casino.
Here they are telling the dealers we don't care about your aching hands, deal faster and faster ... yet all of a sudden, play halts and arguments ensue. So who is at fault here? Who provided the text and selected the typeface and size on that coupon? Who has heard complaints about this issue over and over and not done anything about it?
>Depends on the wording on the coupon?
Depnds on the wording on the coupon that is in large bold type and is easily seen and easily understood by a fanny-pack toting tourist who is half in the bag.
Even Money Bets means that if you go to a roulette table ... you can't use their coupon on a Straight Up bet or even a Dozens bet.
Even Money Bets means that at Craps you can do a Line Bet, not a center bet or a place bet. Query as to a Field Bet though?
What I do know is that this question has arisen in that casino before and it is the fault of the casino if any questions STILL remain about it. Either change the wording on the coupon or educate the dealers or whatever, but get the problem solved. The casino created it and any annoyance and delay about it is the fault of the casino.
Here they are telling the dealers we don't care about your aching hands, deal faster and faster ... yet all of a sudden, play halts and arguments ensue. So who is at fault here? Who provided the text and selected the typeface and size on that coupon? Who has heard complaints about this issue over and over and not done anything about it?
>Depends on the wording on the coupon?
Depnds on the wording on the coupon that is in large bold type and is easily seen and easily understood by a fanny-pack toting tourist who is half in the bag.
December 29th, 2010 at 4:25:56 PM
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Quote: ahiromuHere's an additional question: If BJ pays even money with a match play, should you still play blackjack or is black/red on roulette better?
If the red/black is on a single-zero wheel, play roulette. BJ with 1-1 payouts on naturals is about a 2.8-3% game (depending on rules), slightly more than single-zero roulette. If the single-zero game has partage, it's nowhere close.
But better still, play craps or baccarat.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice."
-- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
December 29th, 2010 at 4:31:09 PM
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Quote: DJTeddyBearWe'd have to read the fine print on the coupon before saying what is the right thing.
It may say "Valid for even money bets only." In that case, the BJ should have paid $20.
If usually says "Valid for BlackJack; Baccarat; Craps Pass, Come or Field; Roulette Red or Even" etc. In that case, it should have paid $30. Or at least $25.
What happens if you use it at a BlackJack table, and you get a Double Down or Split situation?
In the event of a double down or split most casinos will allow you to use another coupon. In the absence of an additional coupon, they'll usually allow the player to use chips.
December 29th, 2010 at 6:32:07 PM
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The only match play coupons I happen to have around the place right now are from Grand Biloxi. The smallest print is still something I can read with my bifocals. It states quite clearly that, "Blackjack pays even money on coupon wager." No question about it on these coupons, but others might not be so clear cut. I am pretty certain I have been paid 3:2 on some coupons in the past, but the occasion doesn't arise very often -- not many match play coupons and not many blackjacks when I use them. Usually I just use a match play coupon on a pass line bet.
December 29th, 2010 at 8:43:21 PM
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Okay. That settles it as far as the Grand Biloxi ... and probably others. I assume you play Blackjack with your bifocals on.Quote: DocGrand Biloxi. The smallest print is still something I can read with my bifocals. It states quite clearly that, "Blackjack pays even money on coupon wager."
I still blame the casinos for all the confusion and discord. Correct answer: His cash bet gets paid at 3:2, his Coupon Wager gets paid 1:1.
Is it really worth it for the casino to print those lousy coupons. It probably caused alot of confusion: Dealer, Floor, Pit... other players. Annoyed players, Delayed Players.
Why on earth do casinos do such things. Its not Rocket Science. "Matchplay Coupon: If you are dealt a blackjack and win, this coupon gets paid at even money, otherwise this coupon gets paid at 3:2." Simple, straight forward.
I forget what the answers were but I've heard this argument at three casinos including my local Indian Casino which can't ever do anything right.
December 29th, 2010 at 8:48:34 PM
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Quote: JerryLoganI believe people who have this ongoing need to use cheap coupons and think they were printed just to hand over casino money, ought to be thankful for whatever they're given on a win and leave it at that. I see the same problem at the slot clubs all the time.
Boy, do I agree with this, - it's very true. It's a freebie, and if they win, it's free money - AND they want more?
Quote: JerryLoganPlayers always think they were suppose to get more than they've earned so they whine like big babies and hold up the line for stupid reasons.
But this is precisely the way the general public thinks. And the casino manager has to worry about that. So, an act of generosity "looks like" being a cheapskate if a "free" BJ pays even money instead of 3:2. Since the casino wants the public to think nice about them, it's just best to pay 3:2, or forgive a vig, just to make sure the freebie "works" as a promotion. For the casino, a win is a loan...
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
December 29th, 2010 at 11:41:34 PM
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Quote: PaigowdanBoy, do I agree with this, - it's very true. It's a freebie, and if they win, it's free money - AND they want more?
But this is precisely the way the general public thinks. And the casino manager has to worry about that. So, an act of generosity "looks like" being a cheapskate if a "free" BJ pays even money instead of 3:2. Since the casino wants the public to think nice about them, it's just best to pay 3:2, or forgive a vig, just to make sure the freebie "works" as a promotion. For the casino, a win is a loan...
You agree with Jerry's wording, as well? The coupons WERE, in fact, as Jerry says, "printed to hand over casino money". That's their PURPOSE. It's not a matter of people "think they were suppose (sic) to get more than they've earned". It's a matter of, if you make a bet, you expect to get paid the appropriate amount when you win.
The best way to think of the coupon is as an add-on, so the cash part of the wager should DEFINITELY be paid the same amount it would have been paid without the coupon--then the coupon should be paid even money (if that's what it says on the coupon). The situation I described, where the casino tried to underpay the original wager, was just plain wrong.
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
December 30th, 2010 at 2:07:41 AM
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MKL,
Well, yes, actually I do agree with Jerry: casinos are handing back some money to their customers, so it should act like money with the players thankful for it, in the forms of table play coupons (both free play and mach play), free slot play, even loss rebates, simply to re-prime the customer pump, and they are doing it pretty well, but less than perfectly.
And I agree with you on the fact that this free or match play money ought to be paid out at "face value" if so stated, BUT (and here's the qualm about it)....
....as true "money in action," it should act as money in action if won (e.g., PAY the 3:2 blackjack, or double the field - or forgive the vig), even as an add-on - lest the casino look chintzy, or having strings attached to that "money."
Casinos can and will do whatever they want, but they partially defeat the purpose of looking like the good guy if they don't come off completely magnanimous in giving a gift - like one hand is taking back something when the other is giving a gift. The fact that some gamblers are griping about it here at this board kind of substantiates this. It really looks like one hand is taking back while the other is giving. And it matters how it looks, and how customers are made to feel.
If I were a casino exec, I'd be taking notes on this thread, in the sense that if you give a customer any reason to complain, or to look askance at anything that is done, then it is done imprfectly (I mean imperfectly), from a casino marketing point-of-view.
Well, yes, actually I do agree with Jerry: casinos are handing back some money to their customers, so it should act like money with the players thankful for it, in the forms of table play coupons (both free play and mach play), free slot play, even loss rebates, simply to re-prime the customer pump, and they are doing it pretty well, but less than perfectly.
And I agree with you on the fact that this free or match play money ought to be paid out at "face value" if so stated, BUT (and here's the qualm about it)....
....as true "money in action," it should act as money in action if won (e.g., PAY the 3:2 blackjack, or double the field - or forgive the vig), even as an add-on - lest the casino look chintzy, or having strings attached to that "money."
Casinos can and will do whatever they want, but they partially defeat the purpose of looking like the good guy if they don't come off completely magnanimous in giving a gift - like one hand is taking back something when the other is giving a gift. The fact that some gamblers are griping about it here at this board kind of substantiates this. It really looks like one hand is taking back while the other is giving. And it matters how it looks, and how customers are made to feel.
If I were a casino exec, I'd be taking notes on this thread, in the sense that if you give a customer any reason to complain, or to look askance at anything that is done, then it is done imprfectly (I mean imperfectly), from a casino marketing point-of-view.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
December 30th, 2010 at 4:34:00 AM
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Quote: PaigowdanMKL,
Well, yes, actually I do agree with Jerry: casinos are handing back some money to their customers, so it should act like money with the players thankful for it, in the forms of table play coupons (both free play and mach play), free slot play, even loss rebates, simply to re-prime the customer pump, and they are doing it pretty well, but less than perfectly.
So, are you saying that if they refused to pay at all, it would still be ok?
Imagine this situation. You make a bet with a coupon, win, and they tell you "well, you should be thankful we let you play at all", and just refuse to pay your winnings.
By your logic, that should be fine, because, it is a freebie.
Quote:
If I were a casino exec, I'd be taking notes on this thread, in the sense that if you give a customer any reason to complain, or to look askance at anything that is done, then it is done imprfectly (I mean imperfectly), from a casino marketing point-of-view.
If you were an exec (doesn't have to be casino), you would not need any notes. It is marketing 101, you want to SPEND MONEY to make the customer happy and want to come back, not kill yourself over five bucks on a principle.
"When two people always agree one of them is unnecessary"
December 30th, 2010 at 4:58:11 AM
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I voted for $30. To me the "even money bets only" rule is a general guideline about what games you can use the coupon for. However, it is not a hard and fast rule. For example, you can generally allow such coupons in pai gow poker and the banker bet in baccarat, although those bets pay 19 to 20. In my opinion, if they accept the coupon for use in blackjack then they should pay the full way on a blackjack. However, if this happened to me, and they paid the coupon even money, I wouldn't fight it very hard. I would not let them pay the actual wager even money as well without a huge fight.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
December 30th, 2010 at 5:23:20 AM
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Here's a question for ya:
Would the payout have been different if the player was a well known high-roller using a $1,000 match play coupon?
It's no longer just a couple bucks for some random player.
It's a more significant payout difference, as well as a more significant customer.
Isn't the casino constantly bending over backwards to keep those kinds of players happy? Wouldn't they pay that player 3:2 on both?
Whatever decision is made, should also apply to the player with the $10 coupon too.
Would the payout have been different if the player was a well known high-roller using a $1,000 match play coupon?
It's no longer just a couple bucks for some random player.
It's a more significant payout difference, as well as a more significant customer.
Isn't the casino constantly bending over backwards to keep those kinds of players happy? Wouldn't they pay that player 3:2 on both?
Whatever decision is made, should also apply to the player with the $10 coupon too.
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ —————————————————————————————————————
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
December 30th, 2010 at 6:29:01 AM
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Quote: weaselmanSo, are you saying that if they refused to pay at all, it would still be ok?
Imagine this situation. You make a bet with a coupon, win, and they tell you "well, you should be thankful we let you play at all", and just refuse to pay your winnings. By your logic, that should be fine, because, it is a freebie.
No, never said that, you completely missed it. The thread of the discussion was that if a playing voucher (free play OR match play) didn't pay the additional bonus part when it occurs on a player win (that is, the casino paying even money or 1:1 instead of 3:2 on Blackjacks, even money instead of 2:1 on aces rolling on a field bet, or charging you a vig on a commission-based game instead of forgiving the commission) then:
1. Players should be thankful for the even money win, instead of also receiving the bonus part, which would also be paid if the voucher were treated as "money in action," which is how real money is treated. But players are complaining about being "shorted" on what was a gift with monetary value. (Indeed, there are methods to guarantee the 50% face value in cash on the free play bets; if requested, I'll tell ya all exactly what players do to get this, as a dealer who sees this crap.)
2. By skimping on the bonus part, even by paying even money on the win, the casino creates preceived bad will - and players and forum members are mentioning that.
Quote: weaselmanIf you were an exec (doesn't have to be casino), you would not need any notes. It is marketing 101, you want to SPEND MONEY to make the customer happy and want to come back, not kill yourself over five bucks on a principle.
No, notes are clearly needed because a LOT of casino executives miss a LOT of things. This is why this voucher problem is a problem both in the casino pit as well as a discussion item here on this forum. Countless amounts of casino floor confusion and player bad will occurs from it, all of it avoidable if it weren't rushed out - or at least thought out better.
If it weren't a problem, then it would not have existed to be mentioned as a problem here - or in countless casino pits, chewing up time and money and generating player bad will. This is a problem.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
December 30th, 2010 at 6:50:19 AM
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Quote: DJTeddyBearHere's a question for ya:
Would the payout have been different if the player was a well known high-roller using a $1,000 match play coupon?
Good point. A Big action player (a $1,000 coupon!) = treat him with kit gloves! They will [or be crazy not to!] forgive a commission, or pay 3:2, - or risk losing that lucrative player to another fancy joint. Looking cheap and pissing of a Big Player is VERY risky in this business.
Quote: DJTeddyBearIt's no longer just a couple bucks for some random player.
It's a more significant payout difference, as well as a more significant customer.
Isn't the casino constantly bending over backwards to keep those kinds of players happy? Wouldn't they pay that player 3:2 on both?
Whatever decision is made, should also apply to the player with the $10 coupon too.
They should...but casinos do make a distinction between high-rollers, and players who are viewed as fleas. Someone who buys in for $20 and bets $3 blackjack is pretty much left alone, unless he causes trouble, and is not particularly catered to. Bet $3 a hand for a short while, and ask for a comp to the steak house, and the floorman will say, "Sorry sir, you play doesn't warrant it," - just like that [snap]. I've heard it a thousand times. Granted, "all customers are guests," and all players are valuable, but some guests are bigger (more valuable) than others, and that's just the way it works.
Technically, ALL vouchers are "equal in performance" - but the players aren't! To the casino, players are valued in the computer accounting system according to their bet size and length of play; that's why some players get the $1,000 vouchers - because they bet that size!
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
December 30th, 2010 at 7:19:24 AM
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Players are not the same so offers are not the same. That's understood and expected.Quote: PaigowdanTechnically, ALL vouchers are "equal in performance" - but the players aren't! To the casino, players are valued in the computer accounting system according to their bet size and length of play; that's why some players get the $1,000 vouchers - because they bet that size!
It does not bother me that when I get the mail, there are identical casino postcards for me and my wife - identical except for the dollar amount of the offer - and the wife gets the better offers!
But while the dollar amount may be different, the offers should be handled the same way. After all, that $1,000 voucher player may have a spouse or friend with the $10 voucher. If the $10 player is shortchanged and the $1,000 is not, what do you think the $1,000 player's reaction will be when he hears about it? Will it be much different than if he himself had been shortchanged?
That's a completely different situation. I've been told that myself. While it's disappointing, frankly, it's totally acceptable. When asking, there is hope and desire, but no real expectation.Quote: Paigowdan...ask for a comp to the steak house, and the floorman will say, "Sorry sir, you play doesn't warrant it," - just like that [snap].
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ —————————————————————————————————————
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
December 30th, 2010 at 7:29:13 AM
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deleted
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
December 30th, 2010 at 3:34:10 PM
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Sorry, kind of late replying to this, but I think a $25 payout is warranted. It should be left to the discretion of the pit boss. Let's face it, coupon users (myself included) are a scuzzy bunch. We walk into a two-bit casino like Silver Nugget with a fistful of coupons, sit down at 21, buy in for $40, play our coupons, and then leave without tipping the dealer. We leave a lot of pride on the table. It's one reason why I hardly do matchplays anymore, even though they are a superior play. It's just too stressful.
I've never been to a casino that pays the full 3:2 on the matchplay as well as the flat bet. It's always 3:2 on the flat, and 1:1 on the match. I suppose an argument could be made for 3:2 on the whole bet, but are you really going to convince the pit boss on that? (They are not usually open to reason). I'm just happy I got my snapper and got out of there with some money.
Some casinos are better than others with coupons. The Golden Gate was extremely accommodating with my 2:1 natural coupon. The pit boss also invited me back for their football party on Sunday, although I was leaving town by then. Can't recommend them highly enough. They gotta lose those goofy hats, though :).
I've never been to a casino that pays the full 3:2 on the matchplay as well as the flat bet. It's always 3:2 on the flat, and 1:1 on the match. I suppose an argument could be made for 3:2 on the whole bet, but are you really going to convince the pit boss on that? (They are not usually open to reason). I'm just happy I got my snapper and got out of there with some money.
Some casinos are better than others with coupons. The Golden Gate was extremely accommodating with my 2:1 natural coupon. The pit boss also invited me back for their football party on Sunday, although I was leaving town by then. Can't recommend them highly enough. They gotta lose those goofy hats, though :).
"Dice, verily, are armed with goads and driving-hooks, deceiving and tormenting, causing grievous woe." -Rig Veda 10.34.4
December 30th, 2010 at 3:43:37 PM
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Quote: teddysI suppose an argument could be made for 3:2 on the whole bet, but are you really going to convince the pit boss on that? (They are not usually open to reason).
hmm. Vegas Law under consideration: no pit boss has ever gotten in trouble for short-changing a player.
Discuss.
Coupons in business are small discounts. In gambling too, I expect, aside from the usual acompanying complications of gaming. Which brings to mind Nareed's First Law of Hollywood: Nothing is so simple that it can't be FUBAR (which means Fouled Up Beyond All Recognition, of course). That can also be Nareed's First Law of Vegas Coupons...
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
December 30th, 2010 at 6:21:09 PM
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Quote: teddysI suppose an argument could be made for 3:2 on the whole bet, but are you really going to convince the pit boss on that? (They are not usually open to reason). I'm just happy I got my snapper and got out of there with some money.
LOL! And yes, some places pay the full 3:2 as a courtesy on free plays and match plays! :)
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
December 30th, 2010 at 7:09:48 PM
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Quote: PaigowdanLOL! And yes, some places pay the full 3:2 as a courtesy on free plays and match plays! :)
It's trivial to compute the additional EV in marketing dollars that this rule would add, and I'd wager that the goodwill it engenders (or the hostility it avoids) is worth far more than the dollar cost.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice."
-- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
December 30th, 2010 at 11:06:16 PM
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Things may have changed (probably have) since very late 2009.
The Plaza I did collect 3-2 on matchplay for a total of $30.00. Also was allowed to double for $20.00 more when using matchplay, and was allowed to split and add $20.00 to the second & third hand. The pit was watching, the dealer showing a 6, I had 9's, and caught a 2 on one to double for another $20. Won 'em all. (I had a fistful of Plaza matchplays and used them daily on different shifts, etc.
Also the Vegas club had the same "rules".
Forget what the other downtown casinos did.
HTH
The Plaza I did collect 3-2 on matchplay for a total of $30.00. Also was allowed to double for $20.00 more when using matchplay, and was allowed to split and add $20.00 to the second & third hand. The pit was watching, the dealer showing a 6, I had 9's, and caught a 2 on one to double for another $20. Won 'em all. (I had a fistful of Plaza matchplays and used them daily on different shifts, etc.
Also the Vegas club had the same "rules".
Forget what the other downtown casinos did.
HTH
December 31st, 2010 at 12:22:05 AM
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So let's extend this to a craps question. Let's say there's a match play coupon of 10 dollars and 10 dollars worth of chips on the pass line and the table offers 345 odds. So does that mean you can bet 30 dollars odds if the point is a 4?
December 31st, 2010 at 1:32:58 AM
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You would be able to bet $30 odds regardless the coupon, as the $10 in chips allows those odds. If the coupon is counted generously, you should be able to bet up to $60 in odds.
Again, some places it's no.
There just too much inconsistency and "needless cheapness" with some casinos, and I say this because of how customers view the overly strict limits on the coupons, so the good will of the coupons backfire, destroying "the promotion of the promotion," so to speak.
I do not say this as opinion, I say this as customer irritation and complaints are always bad business for casinos, as a statement of fact.
These people go elsewhere if teed off.
Again, some places it's no.
There just too much inconsistency and "needless cheapness" with some casinos, and I say this because of how customers view the overly strict limits on the coupons, so the good will of the coupons backfire, destroying "the promotion of the promotion," so to speak.
I do not say this as opinion, I say this as customer irritation and complaints are always bad business for casinos, as a statement of fact.
These people go elsewhere if teed off.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
December 31st, 2010 at 2:09:29 AM
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Quote: PaigowdanYou would be able to bet $30 odds regardless the coupon, as the $10 in chips allows those odds. If the coupon is counted generously, you should be able to bet up to $60 in odds.
345 odds - 10 dollar line bet in chips with 10 match play coupon on pass line and the point is 4 - how you figure 30 regardless of the coupon?
December 31st, 2010 at 6:22:49 AM
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Perhaps we need our resident English teacher to help with both comprehension and grammar?Quote: focd345 odds - 10 dollar line bet in chips with 10 match play coupon on pass line and the point is 4 - how you figure 30 regardless of the coupon?
Anyway, I thought it was clear that Dan's "$30 regardless of the coupon" meant that you could bet $30 in odds whether the coupon was there or not -- that would be 3x the cash. He went on to explain that in a casino with a generous interpretation of the coupon, you could wager up to $60 behind the line; i.e., up to 3x the cash plus coupon.
December 31st, 2010 at 8:11:29 AM
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Quote: DocPerhaps we need our resident English teacher to help with both comprehension and grammar?
Anyway, I thought it was clear that Dan's "$30 regardless of the coupon" meant that you could bet $30 in odds whether the coupon was there or not -- that would be 3x the cash. He went on to explain that in a casino with a generous interpretation of the coupon, you could wager up to $60 behind the line; i.e., up to 3x the cash plus coupon.
Huge sorry to Dan. This is what happens when you haven't played for a month. I kept thinking it was a $5 line bet since I always think of $10 match play tickets as something with a $5 cash value since they take the coupon away from you. It was also early in the morning. Once again, huge apology. Dan's explanation was clear. So my question should be if casinos usually allow putting 60 odds in the example I gave. Also, on a side note, I really don't think I have too serious of a grammar issue. Sometimes when I ask a quick question, I just type it not as a sentence but more of a note. As long as I get the point across, I don't see how this is a problem.
December 31st, 2010 at 8:17:42 AM
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Quote: DocPerhaps we need our resident English teacher to help with both comprehension and grammar?
Just also a personal note - I felt this is somewhat condescending and rude
a lot of people make simple calculation/grammatical mistakes all the time
December 31st, 2010 at 8:46:41 AM
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Then my apology is to you. I meant that as my gentle jab at our friend mkl, who often points our our confusion on such matters.Quote: focdJust also a personal note - I felt this is somewhat condescending and rude
a lot of people make simple calculation/grammatical mistakes all the time
Edit: Perhaps I have indeed gotten a bit rude lately, though I don't think that has habitually been my style. Recently there was a thread in which multiple posters made formatting errors that attributed statements to me that I had never made. Then one of our fellow members basically called me a liar several times straight so that I had to search up evidence that what I was saying was valid. Maybe I built up a little irritation and failed to maintain proper decorum in my posts. I apologize to you again, focd, for my transgression.
December 31st, 2010 at 8:57:32 AM
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We should be somewhat forgiving of typos and grammar, if it is not gibberish, and the point comes across.
This is minor in light of some of the stuff that goes on at forums. And sometimes we confuse a payout or bet amount, etc.
Sometimes I wonder, "Did I write that? I came off as illiterate/ a moron..." and edit it out of necessity and face-saving.
We are often our own worst editors.
This is minor in light of some of the stuff that goes on at forums. And sometimes we confuse a payout or bet amount, etc.
Sometimes I wonder, "Did I write that? I came off as illiterate/ a moron..." and edit it out of necessity and face-saving.
We are often our own worst editors.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
December 31st, 2010 at 11:37:55 AM
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Grosjean's Beyond Coupons has expected return figures for being paid the full 3:2 on a natural (or not) and being allowed to double for the full bet amount (or not). So some places do it differently. Plaza and Vegas Club are some of the most liberal if RT is correct. I haven't had good experiences there lately, however.
"Dice, verily, are armed with goads and driving-hooks, deceiving and tormenting, causing grievous woe." -Rig Veda 10.34.4
December 31st, 2010 at 12:20:58 PM
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Quote: teddysGrosjean's Beyond Coupons has expected return figures for being paid the full 3:2 on a natural (or not) and being allowed to double for the full bet amount (or not). So some places do it differently. Plaza and Vegas Club are some of the most liberal if RT is correct. I haven't had good experiences there lately, however.
In 2009 I made 5-6 Vegas visits, specifically because I had hundreds of match play coupons and the +EV paid all my expenses and small profit.
By the end of 2009, I had used about 1,000 coupons. I bought, traded, begged, socially engineered, every tactic I could think of to acquire them. Simple forum requests for unused match play coupons netted me literally hundreds and hundreds.
I stayed downtown, and Yes, I "abused" the intended use of coupons, did quick hit & runs, double dipped (and more), revisited on each shift, etc. It became a "part time job", spending many hours per day on "coupon runs". I often would play 6 coupons per visit in some places moving pit to pit, avoiding supervisors, etc in the larger places. I did not loiter, and was in & out quickly. Even "disguised" my appearance, shaved my beard, cut my hair, and very rarely got "denied" my coupon play by astute pit supervisors.
Yes, I was surprised by the Plaza & Vegas Club and their liberal coupon rules. And very happy when a dealer or floor person told me I needed $20.00 to double, or split, etc. Shucks, why not. And as a reward, on the last day of my trips, I'd usually "gamble" a percentage of my profit. And I did that at those joints.
Oh well, 2009 is history, and so are those lucrative match play opportunities that paid for my travel and accommodations from SE Florida to Las Vegas.
I miss that "easy money" and free trips. Spent a total of 55 days in Vegas.
Did trip reports on another site detailing those visits.
And, I used public transportation for everything! Visited maybe 21 casinos one day, but I was often in, played, and out within 10 minutes or less. Walking and using the buses was possibly faster than driving a car and parking. But my feet were tired. :)
December 31st, 2010 at 12:41:19 PM
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Quote: DocThen my apology is to you. I meant that as my gentle jab at our friend mkl, who often points our our confusion on such matters.
Edit: Perhaps I have indeed gotten a bit rude lately, though I don't think that has habitually been my style. Recently there was a thread in which multiple posters made formatting errors that attributed statements to me that I had never made. Then one of our fellow members basically called me a liar several times straight so that I had to search up evidence that what I was saying was valid. Maybe I built up a little irritation and failed to maintain proper decorum in my posts. I apologize to you again, focd, for my transgression.
Actually it's good that we have reasonable and understanding members on this forum like you. On a side note, it's really weird because what's happening to you is happening to me. I've had encounters with rude dealers and recently all I could think of was all these rude dealers I have run into in the past. This makes me think of gaming in such a negative manner that I really don't have interest to play. I'm also starting to think that dealers are all rude and you need to be aggressive to get your point across to them which isn't the right way to interact with people. It will just makes the dealers fire back at you in a rude way and sort of forms this negative cycle. But anyway, I think they don't want to pay that 3:2 BJ for the coupon is also because a 10 dollar match play ticket really has cash value of 5 bucks. So they won't pay you 15 for a 5 dollar chip. I think it's just a way they try to make tickets look bigger when they really are half of their stated value.
December 31st, 2010 at 1:49:00 PM
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So very much of Las Vegas is indeed hype.
Yet what would happen if ALL the hype disappeared? Take away the flashing lights, the beautiful women, the signs proclaiming Loose Slots and what do you have? Casinos that are indistinguishable and rather boring as well.
I don't oppose the coupon. I oppose the casino's greed and stupidity in making the coupon so tiny and misleadingly worded. I oppose the stupidity of the casino in having the same issues arise over and over again to the delay and annoyance of the players.
So the Nominal Ten Bucks coupon which is actually worth Five Bucks but is not redeemable for cash seems to often be redeemable only for confusion and delay. Confusion and delay often intensify players feelings about the dealers and any underlying animosity surfaces. Dealers sometimes have rough days and players often have been drinking. Coupons can be great merchandising gimmicks, but mis-understood coupons can be great detonators as well.
Yet what would happen if ALL the hype disappeared? Take away the flashing lights, the beautiful women, the signs proclaiming Loose Slots and what do you have? Casinos that are indistinguishable and rather boring as well.
I don't oppose the coupon. I oppose the casino's greed and stupidity in making the coupon so tiny and misleadingly worded. I oppose the stupidity of the casino in having the same issues arise over and over again to the delay and annoyance of the players.
So the Nominal Ten Bucks coupon which is actually worth Five Bucks but is not redeemable for cash seems to often be redeemable only for confusion and delay. Confusion and delay often intensify players feelings about the dealers and any underlying animosity surfaces. Dealers sometimes have rough days and players often have been drinking. Coupons can be great merchandising gimmicks, but mis-understood coupons can be great detonators as well.
December 31st, 2010 at 2:02:32 PM
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Unless specifically stated otherwise on the coupon, the answer should be $30. If the coupon is to 'match' the original bet, then it should act the exact same as the initial bet. I use my match play coupons at pai gow. Just for kicks, I waited until I was banker and asked if I could use my coupon while banking. (At Seneca Niagara). The dealer asked for advice from the pit boss, who politely said I would have to wait until I was not banking. (Totally reasonable). Of note, I am basically a $25 pai gow player there, and they send me a weekly $50 match play coupon. I noticed a $50 player who had a $100 match play coupon. It appears that they intentionally bump you up to encourage higher per hand gambling, although my sample size (two) is a tad small. I would say that the match play coupon is a successful marketing tool when it comes to me. It does seem to draw me back.
December 31st, 2010 at 5:43:05 PM
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That is the ordinary meaning of the word and most players think that way. This is one reason the question keeps arising at various casinos.Quote: SOOPOOIf the coupon is to 'match' the original bet, then it should act the exact same as the initial bet.
>I am basically a $25 pai gow player there, and they send me a weekly $50 match play coupon.
>It appears that they intentionally bump you up to encourage higher per hand gambling ...
Yes. Their psychology is to get you over any sort of psychological hump. If they can force you to stretch a bit via a match play coupon, they hope you will continue at the higher bet rate. On-Edit: I think the only casino that offers a five dollar match play is the Silver Nugget and its largely a Slots Parlor with a couple of Black Jack Tables thrown in.
>I would say that the match play coupon is a successful marketing tool when it comes to me. It does seem to draw me back.
Yes, even if they don't get you to up your average betting amount, they at least get you back in that door ... and that is half their battle.
January 1st, 2011 at 6:39:34 AM
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At Seneca Niagara, getting you back is indeed more than 1/2 the battle. I like their strategy. Get you to bet twice as much as you normally do and hope that you stay on that level.
I see many match play coupons used in Pai Gow. Perhaps it's because of the tie rule and it could last for many hands.
I see many match play coupons used in Pai Gow. Perhaps it's because of the tie rule and it could last for many hands.
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