wizardofass
wizardofass
Joined: Sep 19, 2023
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September 25th, 2023 at 10:17:38 AM permalink
Does spinning the cards around face down on the table and shuffling them a couple times guarantee as much randomization as a number generator? If the shuffle isn't very good the house edge is higher because the dealer wont bust as frequently
Zcore13
Zcore13
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September 25th, 2023 at 11:04:28 AM permalink
Quote: wizardofass

Does spinning the cards around face down on the table and shuffling them a couple times guarantee as much randomization as a number generator? If the shuffle isn't very good the house edge is higher because the dealer wont bust as frequently
link to original post



How do you know the dealer won't bust as frequently? Random cards, with random number of players, with random number of hands, with random ways of playing, cause random events.


ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
OnceDear
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September 25th, 2023 at 11:06:12 AM permalink
Quote: wizardofass

Does spinning the cards around face down on the table and shuffling them a couple times guarantee as much randomization as a number generator? If the shuffle isn't very good the house edge is higher because the dealer wont bust as frequently
link to original post

I'd say not as random. I don't see why the house edge would be higher. Are you assuming the cards start out unsorted?
Psalm 25:16 Turn to me and be gracious to me, for I am lonely and afflicted. Proverbs 18:2 A fool finds no satisfaction in trying to understand, for he would rather express his own opinion.
DJTeddyBear
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September 25th, 2023 at 11:25:27 AM permalink
Quote: wizardofass

Does spinning the cards around face down on the table and shuffling them a couple times guarantee as much randomization as a number generator?

I often think that the mere act of dealing the cards, and having them returned from players in different sequences each time, is sufficient. One riffle should be plenty. Of course, I keep that thought to myself.


Quote: wizardofass

If the shuffle isn't very good the house edge is higher because the dealer wont bust as frequently
link to original post

How do you come to that conclusion?
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ 覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧 Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
Dieter
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September 25th, 2023 at 12:14:58 PM permalink
Quote: wizardofass

Does spinning the cards around face down on the table and shuffling them a couple times guarantee as much randomization as a number generator? If the shuffle isn't very good the house edge is higher because the dealer wont bust as frequently
link to original post



In blackjack, I believe the shuffle would have to be "not very good" in some fairly specific ways to meaningfully affect the house edge.

The "wash" procedure - scrambling the cards face down on the table, with all cards spending some time on the felt - is a fairly good randomizer, if done correctly. Subsequent riffles intermix various parts of the (mostly) random deck.

As I understand, the "wash" is common only starting from a sorted deck order; either after a deck change, or at a casino that sorts & spreads the decks in play on a dead game. Subsequent shuffles start from a discard sweep + slug order.
May the cards fall in your favor.
ChumpChange
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September 25th, 2023 at 12:42:10 PM permalink
RNG didn't like my winning ways last weekend and came up with 4 Black Jacks in a row against me. What's that 1/20.7 ^ 4? 1 in 183.6K?
One time last century a real dealer started off the shoe at a full table I was at and won 5 Black Jacks in a row. What's that 1/20.7 ^ 5? 1 in 3.8 million?
SOOPOO
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September 25th, 2023 at 12:55:12 PM permalink
Quote: ChumpChange

RNG didn't like my winning ways last weekend and came up with 4 Black Jacks in a row against me. What's that 1/20.7 ^ 4? 1 in 183.6K?
One time last century a real dealer started off the shoe at a full table I was at and won 5 Black Jacks in a row. What's that 1/20.7 ^ 5? 1 in 3.8 million?
link to original post



error. Deleted
AxelWolf
AxelWolf
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September 25th, 2023 at 1:01:59 PM permalink
Quote: wizardofass

Does spinning the cards around face down on the table and shuffling them a couple times guarantee as much randomization as a number generator? If the shuffle isn't very good the house edge is higher because the dealer wont bust as frequently
link to original post

I don't know, it seems like it could help you as much as it could hurt you.

Anyways, this might be of some interest related to the subject.

"Mathematicians have figured out that seven proper riffle shuffles will result in a randomly distributed deck of cards. The overhand shuffle is when clumps of cards are pulled from the deck and thrown back in randomly. Don稚 trust this shuffle. It takes 10,000 overhand shuffles to properly randomize a deck of cards."


https://easternshorepost.com/2022/01/07/random-facts-about-the-randomness-of-a-shuffled-deck/#:~:text=Mathematicians%20have%20figured%20out%20that,randomize%20a%20deck%20of%20cards.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
TigerWu
TigerWu
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September 25th, 2023 at 1:17:51 PM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf



"Mathematicians have figured out that seven proper riffle shuffles will result in a randomly distributed deck of cards. The overhand shuffle is when clumps of cards are pulled from the deck and thrown back in randomly. Don稚 trust this shuffle. It takes 10,000 overhand shuffles to properly randomize a deck of cards."
https://easternshorepost.com/2022/01/07/random-facts-about-the-randomness-of-a-shuffled-deck/#:~:text=Mathematicians%20have%20figured%20out%20that,randomize%20a%20deck%20of%20cards.
link to original post



I'm assuming they mean "randomized" from new deck order? No way you would need 10,000 overhand shuffles to randomize a deck that's already randomized....
heatmap
heatmap
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September 25th, 2023 at 3:28:35 PM permalink
Quote: TigerWu

Quote: AxelWolf



"Mathematicians have figured out that seven proper riffle shuffles will result in a randomly distributed deck of cards. The overhand shuffle is when clumps of cards are pulled from the deck and thrown back in randomly. Don稚 trust this shuffle. It takes 10,000 overhand shuffles to properly randomize a deck of cards."
https://easternshorepost.com/2022/01/07/random-facts-about-the-randomness-of-a-shuffled-deck/#:~:text=Mathematicians%20have%20figured%20out%20that,randomize%20a%20deck%20of%20cards.
link to original post



I'm assuming they mean "randomized" from new deck order? No way you would need 10,000 overhand shuffles to randomize a deck that's already randomized....
link to original post



Lets see if anyone here can come up with a solid definition of random because it took me years to actually understand what it actually means in relation to casino games
Dieter
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AxelWolf
September 25th, 2023 at 3:35:44 PM permalink
Quote: heatmap

Quote: TigerWu

Quote: AxelWolf



"Mathematicians have figured out that seven proper riffle shuffles will result in a randomly distributed deck of cards. The overhand shuffle is when clumps of cards are pulled from the deck and thrown back in randomly. Don稚 trust this shuffle. It takes 10,000 overhand shuffles to properly randomize a deck of cards."
https://easternshorepost.com/2022/01/07/random-facts-about-the-randomness-of-a-shuffled-deck/#:~:text=Mathematicians%20have%20figured%20out%20that,randomize%20a%20deck%20of%20cards.
link to original post



I'm assuming they mean "randomized" from new deck order? No way you would need 10,000 overhand shuffles to randomize a deck that's already randomized....
link to original post



Lets see if anyone here can come up with a solid definition of random because it took me years to actually understand what it actually means in relation to casino games
link to original post



For a shuffle, random means that every card in the source deck has an equal chance of being in every position in the shuffled deck.

Most hand shuffles aren't quite there, but are unpredictable enough to maintain game integrity.
May the cards fall in your favor.
unJon
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September 25th, 2023 at 3:50:10 PM permalink
Quote: TigerWu

Quote: AxelWolf



"Mathematicians have figured out that seven proper riffle shuffles will result in a randomly distributed deck of cards. The overhand shuffle is when clumps of cards are pulled from the deck and thrown back in randomly. Don稚 trust this shuffle. It takes 10,000 overhand shuffles to properly randomize a deck of cards."
https://easternshorepost.com/2022/01/07/random-facts-about-the-randomness-of-a-shuffled-deck/#:~:text=Mathematicians%20have%20figured%20out%20that,randomize%20a%20deck%20of%20cards.
link to original post



I'm assuming they mean "randomized" from new deck order? No way you would need 10,000 overhand shuffles to randomize a deck that's already randomized....
link to original post



Randomized from a known deck order. Doesn稚 have to be a new deck order.
The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong; but that is the way to bet.
heatmap
heatmap
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September 25th, 2023 at 4:42:55 PM permalink
Quote: Dieter

Quote: heatmap

Quote: TigerWu

Quote: AxelWolf



"Mathematicians have figured out that seven proper riffle shuffles will result in a randomly distributed deck of cards. The overhand shuffle is when clumps of cards are pulled from the deck and thrown back in randomly. Don稚 trust this shuffle. It takes 10,000 overhand shuffles to properly randomize a deck of cards."
https://easternshorepost.com/2022/01/07/random-facts-about-the-randomness-of-a-shuffled-deck/#:~:text=Mathematicians%20have%20figured%20out%20that,randomize%20a%20deck%20of%20cards.
link to original post



I'm assuming they mean "randomized" from new deck order? No way you would need 10,000 overhand shuffles to randomize a deck that's already randomized....
link to original post



Lets see if anyone here can come up with a solid definition of random because it took me years to actually understand what it actually means in relation to casino games
link to original post



For a shuffle, random means that every card in the source deck has an equal chance of being in every position in the shuffled deck.

Most hand shuffles aren't quite there, but are unpredictable enough to maintain game integrity.
link to original post



From what i think i know you only needed one of those words you said
heatmap
heatmap
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September 25th, 2023 at 4:46:00 PM permalink
Quote: unJon

Quote: TigerWu

Quote: AxelWolf



"Mathematicians have figured out that seven proper riffle shuffles will result in a randomly distributed deck of cards. The overhand shuffle is when clumps of cards are pulled from the deck and thrown back in randomly. Don稚 trust this shuffle. It takes 10,000 overhand shuffles to properly randomize a deck of cards."
https://easternshorepost.com/2022/01/07/random-facts-about-the-randomness-of-a-shuffled-deck/#:~:text=Mathematicians%20have%20figured%20out%20that,randomize%20a%20deck%20of%20cards.
link to original post





I'm assuming they mean "randomized" from new deck order? No way you would need 10,000 overhand shuffles to randomize a deck that's already randomized....
link to original post



Randomized from a known deck order. Doesn稚 have to be a new deck order.
link to original post



If all shuffles have been seen before which idk if i could say they have then every shuffle is not new
Dieter
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Dieter
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September 25th, 2023 at 5:02:39 PM permalink
Quote: heatmap

Quote: Dieter

Quote: heatmap

Quote: TigerWu

Quote: AxelWolf



"Mathematicians have figured out that seven proper riffle shuffles will result in a randomly distributed deck of cards. The overhand shuffle is when clumps of cards are pulled from the deck and thrown back in randomly. Don稚 trust this shuffle. It takes 10,000 overhand shuffles to properly randomize a deck of cards."
https://easternshorepost.com/2022/01/07/random-facts-about-the-randomness-of-a-shuffled-deck/#:~:text=Mathematicians%20have%20figured%20out%20that,randomize%20a%20deck%20of%20cards.
link to original post



I'm assuming they mean "randomized" from new deck order? No way you would need 10,000 overhand shuffles to randomize a deck that's already randomized....
link to original post



Lets see if anyone here can come up with a solid definition of random because it took me years to actually understand what it actually means in relation to casino games
link to original post



For a shuffle, random means that every card in the source deck has an equal chance of being in every position in the shuffled deck.

Most hand shuffles aren't quite there, but are unpredictable enough to maintain game integrity.
link to original post



From what i think i know you only needed one of those words you said
link to original post



Maybe see the Persi Diaconis lectures on the subject.
I'm skipping over a lot.

As I recall, most of those lectures focus on a 52 card deck when determining how random is random, and our purposes likely need to consider a 312 card deck.
May the cards fall in your favor.
heatmap
heatmap
Joined: Feb 12, 2018
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September 25th, 2023 at 6:00:30 PM permalink
Quote: Dieter

Quote: heatmap

Quote: Dieter

Quote: heatmap

Quote: TigerWu

Quote: AxelWolf



"Mathematicians have figured out that seven proper riffle shuffles will result in a randomly distributed deck of cards. The overhand shuffle is when clumps of cards are pulled from the deck and thrown back in randomly. Don稚 trust this shuffle. It takes 10,000 overhand shuffles to properly randomize a deck of cards."
https://easternshorepost.com/2022/01/07/random-facts-about-the-randomness-of-a-shuffled-deck/#:~:text=Mathematicians%20have%20figured%20out%20that,randomize%20a%20deck%20of%20cards.
link to original post



I'm assuming they mean "randomized" from new deck order? No way you would need 10,000 overhand shuffles to randomize a deck that's already randomized....
link to original post



Lets see if anyone here can come up with a solid definition of random because it took me years to actually understand what it actually means in relation to casino games
link to original post



For a shuffle, random means that every card in the source deck has an equal chance of being in every position in the shuffled deck.

Most hand shuffles aren't quite there, but are unpredictable enough to maintain game integrity.
link to original post



From what i think i know you only needed one of those words you said
link to original post



Maybe see the Persi Diaconis lectures on the subject.
I'm skipping over a lot.

As I recall, most of those lectures focus on a 52 card deck when determining how random is random, and our purposes likely need to consider a 312 card deck.
link to original post



i can tell you ive skimmed over alot of his stuff but do not have the mathematical abilities to understand what hes saying.

i know he said that the algorithm that shuffle master was using was predictable to him in a statistical manner. i forget if he said they utilized his suggestions to mitigate what he suggested.

what i do believe as of this point is that casinos have moved on to AI for RNG.

RANDOM === UNPREDICTABLE
Dieter
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Dieter
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heatmap
September 25th, 2023 at 7:10:48 PM permalink
Quote: heatmap

Quote: Dieter

Quote: heatmap

Quote: Dieter

Quote: heatmap

Quote: TigerWu

Quote: AxelWolf



"Mathematicians have figured out that seven proper riffle shuffles will result in a randomly distributed deck of cards. The overhand shuffle is when clumps of cards are pulled from the deck and thrown back in randomly. Don稚 trust this shuffle. It takes 10,000 overhand shuffles to properly randomize a deck of cards."
https://easternshorepost.com/2022/01/07/random-facts-about-the-randomness-of-a-shuffled-deck/#:~:text=Mathematicians%20have%20figured%20out%20that,randomize%20a%20deck%20of%20cards.
link to original post



I'm assuming they mean "randomized" from new deck order? No way you would need 10,000 overhand shuffles to randomize a deck that's already randomized....
link to original post



Lets see if anyone here can come up with a solid definition of random because it took me years to actually understand what it actually means in relation to casino games
link to original post



For a shuffle, random means that every card in the source deck has an equal chance of being in every position in the shuffled deck.

Most hand shuffles aren't quite there, but are unpredictable enough to maintain game integrity.
link to original post



From what i think i know you only needed one of those words you said
link to original post



Maybe see the Persi Diaconis lectures on the subject.
I'm skipping over a lot.

As I recall, most of those lectures focus on a 52 card deck when determining how random is random, and our purposes likely need to consider a 312 card deck.
link to original post



i can tell you ive skimmed over alot of his stuff but do not have the mathematical abilities to understand what hes saying.

i know he said that the algorithm that shuffle master was using was predictable to him in a statistical manner. i forget if he said they utilized his suggestions to mitigate what he suggested.

what i do believe as of this point is that casinos have moved on to AI for RNG.

RANDOM === UNPREDICTABLE
link to original post



I probably need to sit on a warm rock for a while, meditating on the relation between random and unpredictable. (I do not know that they are equivalent.)


I believe what you're thinking of was a carousel shuffler with a non-prime number of platforms. I believe the suggestion was to disable enough platforms in software so that a prime number of platforms would be in use.
This is done, as far as I know.

This is not the same style shuffler as the MD2, MD3, and MDX. These are 'elevator' rather than 'carousel', and use a different shuffling method.
May the cards fall in your favor.
heatmap
heatmap
Joined: Feb 12, 2018
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September 25th, 2023 at 8:24:25 PM permalink
Quote: Dieter

Quote: heatmap

Quote: TigerWu

Quote: AxelWolf



"Mathematicians have figured out that seven proper riffle shuffles will result in a randomly distributed deck of cards. The overhand shuffle is when clumps of cards are pulled from the deck and thrown back in randomly. Don稚 trust this shuffle. It takes 10,000 overhand shuffles to properly randomize a deck of cards."
https://easternshorepost.com/2022/01/07/random-facts-about-the-randomness-of-a-shuffled-deck/#:~:text=Mathematicians%20have%20figured%20out%20that,randomize%20a%20deck%20of%20cards.
link to original post



I'm assuming they mean "randomized" from new deck order? No way you would need 10,000 overhand shuffles to randomize a deck that's already randomized....
link to original post



Lets see if anyone here can come up with a solid definition of random because it took me years to actually understand what it actually means in relation to casino games
link to original post



For a shuffle, random means that every card in the source deck has an equal chance of being in every position in the shuffled deck.

Most hand shuffles aren't quite there, but are unpredictable enough to maintain game integrity.
link to original post



i going to go with your definition...

lets say we already know of a way to generate every single permutation of a shuffle...

well that fulfils your "every card in every postion" definition

cool

well since we know thats a guaranty then we need to assume that its possible to somewhat "predict" a single shuffle ... after all a broken clock is right twice a day we can get lucky so to say...

well we dont want the person to get lucky on their own terms we want them to get lucky at a random time

we need the shuffle to be unpredictable
AxelWolf
AxelWolf
Joined: Oct 10, 2012
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September 26th, 2023 at 12:10:14 AM permalink
Quote: Dieter

Quote: heatmap

Quote: Dieter

Quote: heatmap

Quote: TigerWu

Quote: AxelWolf



"Mathematicians have figured out that seven proper riffle shuffles will result in a randomly distributed deck of cards. The overhand shuffle is when clumps of cards are pulled from the deck and thrown back in randomly. Don稚 trust this shuffle. It takes 10,000 overhand shuffles to properly randomize a deck of cards."
https://easternshorepost.com/2022/01/07/random-facts-about-the-randomness-of-a-shuffled-deck/#:~:text=Mathematicians%20have%20figured%20out%20that,randomize%20a%20deck%20of%20cards.
link to original post



I'm assuming they mean "randomized" from new deck order? No way you would need 10,000 overhand shuffles to randomize a deck that's already randomized....
link to original post



Lets see if anyone here can come up with a solid definition of random because it took me years to actually understand what it actually means in relation to casino games
link to original post



For a shuffle, random means that every card in the source deck has an equal chance of being in every position in the shuffled deck.

Most hand shuffles aren't quite there, but are unpredictable enough to maintain game integrity.
link to original post



From what i think i know you only needed one of those words you said
link to original post



Maybe see the Persi Diaconis lectures on the subject.
I'm skipping over a lot.

As I recall, most of those lectures focus on a 52 card deck when determining how random is random, and our purposes likely need to consider a 312 card deck.
link to original post

Very good point, I didn't think about that. Obviously, this is why shuffle tracking is a thing. I don't know enough about what it takes to have a random shuffle to really give any insight. I just remember reading that article and found it interesting.

I just know I get pissed off at home poker games when the dealer spends so much time shuffling. I'm like.. "dude seriously, 2 riffs and deal the damn cards, it's fine.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
AxelWolf
AxelWolf
Joined: Oct 10, 2012
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September 26th, 2023 at 12:15:28 AM permalink
Quote: Dieter

Quote: heatmap

Quote: Dieter

Quote: heatmap

Quote: Dieter

Quote: heatmap

Quote: TigerWu

Quote: AxelWolf



"Mathematicians have figured out that seven proper riffle shuffles will result in a randomly distributed deck of cards. The overhand shuffle is when clumps of cards are pulled from the deck and thrown back in randomly. Don稚 trust this shuffle. It takes 10,000 overhand shuffles to properly randomize a deck of cards."
https://easternshorepost.com/2022/01/07/random-facts-about-the-randomness-of-a-shuffled-deck/#:~:text=Mathematicians%20have%20figured%20out%20that,randomize%20a%20deck%20of%20cards.
link to original post



I'm assuming they mean "randomized" from new deck order? No way you would need 10,000 overhand shuffles to randomize a deck that's already randomized....
link to original post



Lets see if anyone here can come up with a solid definition of random because it took me years to actually understand what it actually means in relation to casino games
link to original post



For a shuffle, random means that every card in the source deck has an equal chance of being in every position in the shuffled deck.

Most hand shuffles aren't quite there, but are unpredictable enough to maintain game integrity.
link to original post



From what i think i know you only needed one of those words you said
link to original post



Maybe see the Persi Diaconis lectures on the subject.
I'm skipping over a lot.

As I recall, most of those lectures focus on a 52 card deck when determining how random is random, and our purposes likely need to consider a 312 card deck.
link to original post



i can tell you ive skimmed over alot of his stuff but do not have the mathematical abilities to understand what hes saying.

i know he said that the algorithm that shuffle master was using was predictable to him in a statistical manner. i forget if he said they utilized his suggestions to mitigate what he suggested.

what i do believe as of this point is that casinos have moved on to AI for RNG.

RANDOM === UNPREDICTABLE
link to original post



I probably need to sit on a warm rock for a while, meditating on the relation between random and unpredictable. (I do not know that they are equivalent.)


I believe what you're thinking of was a carousel shuffler with a non-prime number of platforms. I believe the suggestion was to disable enough platforms in software so that a prime number of platforms would be in use.
This is done, as far as I know.

This is not the same style shuffler as the MD2, MD3, and MDX. These are 'elevator' rather than 'carousel', and use a different shuffling method.

link to original post

I assume that means it is not 100% random, but good luck being able to predict anything. Let alone, enough to gain an advantage.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
AxelWolf
AxelWolf
Joined: Oct 10, 2012
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September 26th, 2023 at 12:17:21 AM permalink
Quote: Dieter

Quote: heatmap

Quote: TigerWu

Quote: AxelWolf



"Mathematicians have figured out that seven proper riffle shuffles will result in a randomly distributed deck of cards. The overhand shuffle is when clumps of cards are pulled from the deck and thrown back in randomly. Don稚 trust this shuffle. It takes 10,000 overhand shuffles to properly randomize a deck of cards."
https://easternshorepost.com/2022/01/07/random-facts-about-the-randomness-of-a-shuffled-deck/#:~:text=Mathematicians%20have%20figured%20out%20that,randomize%20a%20deck%20of%20cards.
link to original post



I'm assuming they mean "randomized" from new deck order? No way you would need 10,000 overhand shuffles to randomize a deck that's already randomized....
link to original post



Lets see if anyone here can come up with a solid definition of random because it took me years to actually understand what it actually means in relation to casino games
link to original post



For a shuffle, random means that every card in the source deck has an equal chance of being in every position in the shuffled deck.

Most hand shuffles aren't quite there, but are unpredictable enough to maintain game integrity.
link to original post

This.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
Dieter
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Dieter
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September 26th, 2023 at 4:05:00 AM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf


I just know I get pissed off at home poker games when the dealer spends so much time shuffling. I'm like.. "dude seriously, 2 riffs and deal the damn cards, it's fine.
link to original post



Rotating deal, or dedicated dealer?
May the cards fall in your favor.
AxelWolf
AxelWolf
Joined: Oct 10, 2012
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September 26th, 2023 at 4:49:58 AM permalink
Quote: Dieter

Quote: AxelWolf


I just know I get pissed off at home poker games when the dealer spends so much time shuffling. I'm like.. "dude seriously, 2 riffs and deal the damn cards, it's fine.
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Rotating deal, or dedicated dealer?
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Had both situations, but usually a dedicated one with a stand-in or 2. Some people haven't a clue how to deal
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
Dieter
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Dieter
Joined: Jul 23, 2014
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September 26th, 2023 at 4:58:11 AM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: Dieter

Quote: AxelWolf


I just know I get pissed off at home poker games when the dealer spends so much time shuffling. I'm like.. "dude seriously, 2 riffs and deal the damn cards, it's fine.
link to original post



Rotating deal, or dedicated dealer?
link to original post

Had both situations, but usually a dedicated one with a stand-in or 2. Some people haven't a clue how to deal
link to original post



Wash, riffle, riffle, 5 packet running strip, riffle, offer the cut.

You can say that that's how they do it on the fancy TV games, and your friends want to feel fancy tonight.

DJ probably knows what the current guidelines are.

edit: you're out of luck with a rotating deal.
May the cards fall in your favor.
AxelWolf
AxelWolf
Joined: Oct 10, 2012
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September 26th, 2023 at 5:27:12 AM permalink
Quote: Dieter

Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: Dieter

Quote: AxelWolf


I just know I get pissed off at home poker games when the dealer spends so much time shuffling. I'm like.. "dude seriously, 2 riffs and deal the damn cards, it's fine.
link to original post



Rotating deal, or dedicated dealer?
link to original post

Had both situations, but usually a dedicated one with a stand-in or 2. Some people haven't a clue how to deal
link to original post



Wash, riffle, riffle, 5 packet running strip, riffle, offer the cut.

You can say that that's how they do it on the fancy TV games, and your friends want to feel fancy tonight.

DJ probably knows what the current guidelines are.

edit: you're out of luck with a rotating deal.
link to original post

Just grab the cards, 2 riffs, and deal, or my tips are going from 0 to -0 along with some harassment. And stop flashing the cards. you just dealt Dan an Ace.
DJ, "BS"
* Dan peeks... "WTF?"
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
Dieter
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Dieter
Joined: Jul 23, 2014
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September 26th, 2023 at 5:34:07 AM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: Dieter

Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: Dieter

Quote: AxelWolf


I just know I get pissed off at home poker games when the dealer spends so much time shuffling. I'm like.. "dude seriously, 2 riffs and deal the damn cards, it's fine.
link to original post



Rotating deal, or dedicated dealer?
link to original post

Had both situations, but usually a dedicated one with a stand-in or 2. Some people haven't a clue how to deal
link to original post



Wash, riffle, riffle, 5 packet running strip, riffle, offer the cut.

You can say that that's how they do it on the fancy TV games, and your friends want to feel fancy tonight.

DJ probably knows what the current guidelines are.

edit: you're out of luck with a rotating deal.
link to original post

Just grab the cards, 2 riffs, and deal, or my tips are going from 0 to -0 along with some harassment. And stop flashing the cards. you just dealt Dan an Ace.
DJ, "BS"
* Dan peeks... "WTF?"
link to original post



Without getting into in-shuffles and out-shuffles, that's going to tend to keep the cards at the top of the deck near the top of the deck, and the cards near the bottom towards the bottom.

That running strip cut does something.
May the cards fall in your favor.
Dieter
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Dieter
Joined: Jul 23, 2014
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September 26th, 2023 at 6:16:20 AM permalink


Without particularly trying, this is what can happen with "just two riffles".

I put two jokers on the top, riffled twice, and spread the deck.

Then I riffled twice, and spread the deck.



Then again...



I'm neither good at controlling a shuffle, nor particularly trying.

That extra nonsense helps demonstrate that the dealer isn't controlling the shuffle and isn't grossly incompetent at shuffling. Keep your shorts on and let the cards get mixed up.
May the cards fall in your favor.
unJon
unJon
Joined: Jul 1, 2018
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September 26th, 2023 at 8:34:49 AM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: Dieter

Quote: heatmap

Quote: Dieter

Quote: heatmap

Quote: TigerWu

Quote: AxelWolf



"Mathematicians have figured out that seven proper riffle shuffles will result in a randomly distributed deck of cards. The overhand shuffle is when clumps of cards are pulled from the deck and thrown back in randomly. Don稚 trust this shuffle. It takes 10,000 overhand shuffles to properly randomize a deck of cards."
https://easternshorepost.com/2022/01/07/random-facts-about-the-randomness-of-a-shuffled-deck/#:~:text=Mathematicians%20have%20figured%20out%20that,randomize%20a%20deck%20of%20cards.
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I'm assuming they mean "randomized" from new deck order? No way you would need 10,000 overhand shuffles to randomize a deck that's already randomized....
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Lets see if anyone here can come up with a solid definition of random because it took me years to actually understand what it actually means in relation to casino games
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For a shuffle, random means that every card in the source deck has an equal chance of being in every position in the shuffled deck.

Most hand shuffles aren't quite there, but are unpredictable enough to maintain game integrity.
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From what i think i know you only needed one of those words you said
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Maybe see the Persi Diaconis lectures on the subject.
I'm skipping over a lot.

As I recall, most of those lectures focus on a 52 card deck when determining how random is random, and our purposes likely need to consider a 312 card deck.
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Very good point, I didn't think about that. Obviously, this is why shuffle tracking is a thing. I don't know enough about what it takes to have a random shuffle to really give any insight. I just remember reading that article and found it interesting.

I just know I get pissed off at home poker games when the dealer spends so much time shuffling. I'm like.. "dude seriously, 2 riffs and deal the damn cards, it's fine.
link to original post



This is why we have two decks of cards at our home game. Shuffle after you deal then pass the cards to the the next dealer (two to your left), all while the person to your left deals the next hand. Can have a third person cut if someone is paranoid.
The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong; but that is the way to bet.
ChumpChange
ChumpChange
Joined: Jun 15, 2018
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September 26th, 2023 at 9:23:11 AM permalink
Cheating at Poker: How to Deal Your Opponent the Second Best Hand
CardMagicByJason
155K subscribers
riridarana1234
riridarana1234
Joined: Oct 8, 2023
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October 9th, 2023 at 5:33:11 PM permalink
Quote: wizardofass

Does spinning the cards around face down on the table and shuffling them a couple times guarantee as much randomization as a number generator? If the shuffle isn't very good the house edge is higher because the dealer wont bust as frequently
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Shuffling cards manually could add some degree of randomness but is unlikely to be on the level of a sufficiently-programmed RNG used in electronic casino games. Manual shuffling creates randomness but the degree of randomness might not be as great as that provided by an RNG employed in the electronic gaming. Nevertheless, the main factors that influence the house edge of casino games are apart from the shuffle, including game rules and player strategy. To minimize these risks, casinos implement various measures in ensuring fairness to both player and themselves. In this case, rather than solely contemplating on the shuffle quality to have an upper hand, a player ought to familiarize with the rules ad policies that govern betting
Zcore13
Zcore13
Joined: Nov 30, 2009
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October 9th, 2023 at 5:40:45 PM permalink
Is AI taking over the forum???


ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.

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