convincing ploppies to let you bankroll their splits/doubles. What could I have done better?

I’ve found that often, a good source of EV is ploppies allowing you to sponsor their double or split. This usually goes smoothly for obvious doubles and splits, such as 11 v 6.

However I want to take some advice on how to improve my “ploppy persuasion skills” for hands that are not so obvious.

Quick question first: I really hate it when the ploppy asks to “borrow some chips” from me instead of letting me double for them. They’ll say like “if I lose this I’ll go to the ATM and pay you back.” Anyone got good ideas how to turn it into a win win situation without upsetting the ploppy?


Back to the main story.

Usually I’m the one bankrolling the ploppys when they are reluctant to double (even if they can afford it). This time however, I found myself in a situation where the ploppy is high rolling 10x my bet size.

This ploppy without a players card joined the table with $2k. He was on a hot streak and increased his bet size as his bankroll got bigger. He was at a point starting to bet full stack of blacks and getting paid in oranges. He eventually walked away with $16k

My situation occurred during his hottest streak. He was winning as his bet size went up and the TC also going up. I assure you his bet size going up as TC went up in that shoe is mere coincidence, and he is not a card counter. Trust me, his mistakes are real mistakes and not possible to be “cover”.

I was down a lot and only had $1k left on the table and $5k in my wallet. The TC was +5~+6 ish and the plop was dealt 99 and dealer had 5. He had bet a full stack of black, $2k.

He was thinking. But he quickly started showing body language of wanting to stand on his 99. I started freaking out internally when I saw that.

For reference, 99v5 is a great split to begin with. At neutral shoe it yields +20% EV compared to stand. At TC 6 holy shit it’s +37% EV compared to stand. With a $2k bet he is basically giving up $740 by not splitting. Damn it.


So right before he was about to wave it off, I said “waittttt let’s think about this one”. I said “you’ve split 99 on a dealer 3 earlier, so why not on a dealer 5.” And he said “well yeah that was because I had $300 on that one and this one is $2000”. I said “would you do it if you had $300 out?” He said “oh yeah” and then I said “so we agree it’s a good split by default?” He said “yeah I get what you’re saying but this is way too much out to be splitting and then doubling afterwards”. I gave up and said “I see… alright”

A bunch of 10s came out and the dealer busted. The ploppy was happy with his $2k win and said “yeah woulda won either way”.

It may have been easier if I were the one 10x’ing his bet (but not possible bec table max is $5k) but I was the “short stack” per se, so even though I could bankroll his split, it’d be incredibly awkward when he has $12k on the table and I have to pull $1-5k from my wallet to bankroll him.

In an ideal world, I would just say “I’ll buy this off you for EV +5% bonus commission” or something like that. But I’d imagine theoretically if I said “I’ll buy this hand off you, how much do you want”, he’ll ask for $4k because he seems confident he can win the 18 vs 5. In reality, it’s worth $2520 if he stands and $3260 if he splits.

I don’t think poppies can correctly estimate EV anyway. They think their 20 should always beat a dealer 2, when the actual win chance is only 75%.

I feel like I tried my best. What would you do in this scenario?

I'd stop calling them ploppies for a start. You don't sound like a likeable player.

Maybe if you were less high and mighty your deal-making skills would improve.

Ploppy brains work differently lol

https://youtu.be/xWkoX_TbLYA?t=102

Quote: AlanMendelson

I'd stop calling them ploppies for a start. You don't sound like a likeable player.

Maybe if you were less high and mighty your deal-making skills would improve.
link to original post

I mostly agree I'm not generally likable. There are people who do like me, but percentage wise it's not high.

But I'm willing to fake it for $740 EV

Quote: AlanMendelson

I'd stop calling them ploppies for a start. You don't sound like a likeable player.

Maybe if you were less high and mighty your deal-making skills would improve.
link to original post

Note to admins: No need to punish him for "personal insult". I actually appreciate his honesty. I'm serious.

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't get a scared player to split 8's and 9's!

I've found that you can never win this battle to convince ignorant people they will profit by following sound advice. Math means nothing to them and they will always think their way is best, even if you prove to them why it isn't.

This is my experience from seeing people refuse to split Aces because they "always get Fives!" , Double Hard 15 vs dealer 5 and someone Surrender on 11!!!

To them it's not about the money, it is them not wanting to be told what to do and venting their anger towards a person in their lives who constantly berates them and bosses them around. It's best just leave them be and move to another table.

What's worse is if they take your advice and lose they will blame you for a bad decision, not understanding variance and the correct method to play.

Or if they ignore your advice and win they will throw in your face how they knew better.

I agree, just ignore the ploppies.

And yes Alan, they deserve to be called ploppies!

im the player sitting at the table - i allow you to sponsor my splits and double - thats MY money if i win and your going to have a hell of a time trying to convince the casino to make me give you my winning back lol

Quote: heatmap

im the player sitting at the table - i allow you to sponsor my splits and double - thats MY money if i win and your going to have a hell of a time trying to convince the casino to make me give you my winning back lol
link to original post

Is this theft???????????

Are there other players at the table? I don't pay any attention.

Quote: IWannaBeAP

Quote: heatmap

im the player sitting at the table - i allow you to sponsor my splits and double - thats MY money if i win and your going to have a hell of a time trying to convince the casino to make me give you my winning back lol
link to original post

Is this theft???????????
link to original post

technically in the real world yes - but ive already talked about this subject a long time ago and have been warned that its possible that the player i sponsored could "steal" my money

When I played Mississippi Stud it was common to lend other players money on winning hands.

But then, we never called another player a ploppie so there was never a problem getting repaid. It was an honorable game.

Quote: AlanMendelson

But then, we never called another player a ploppie so there was never a problem getting repaid. It was an honorable game.
link to original post

Let it go dude. It's not even an offensive word. If someone said it to them, they probably have no idea what it even means.

I have no clue what the origin of the word "Ploppy" comes from. But when I hear it, I think of puppy and poppy. So a puppy high af and floating on cloud 9.

Quote: IWannaBeAP

Quote: AlanMendelson

But then, we never called another player a ploppie so there was never a problem getting repaid. It was an honorable game.
link to original post

Let it go dude. It's not even an offensive word. If someone said it to them, they probably have no idea what it even means.

I have no clue what the origin of the word "Ploppy" comes from. But when I hear it, I think of puppy and poppy. So a puppy high af and floating on cloud 9.
link to original post

Ploppie is an offensive word and I believe it was created by Frank Scoblete in describing unskilled blackjack players.

Quote: IWannaBeAP

Quote: heatmap

im the player sitting at the table - i allow you to sponsor my splits and double - thats MY money if i win and your going to have a hell of a time trying to convince the casino to make me give you my winning back lol
link to original post

Is this theft???????????
link to original post

You came to gamble and put your money on the table.

Them grabbing chips off your stack is different than you handing them chips to play.

Quote: ViennaPizza

I’ve found that often, a good source of EV is ploppies allowing you to sponsor their double or split. This usually goes smoothly for obvious doubles and splits, such as 11 v 6.
(snip)
What would you do in this scenario?
link to original post

A good compromise is to attempt to do what you said above, but just for "obvious doubles" (10 or 11 vs 4-6).

I can explain a bit further if you like, but I think you will understand, going by what you wrote in the OP.

Also, I know you lose out on EV (only trying to do it on the "obvious double" types of hands) but it generally makes for a happier table, IMO.

Quote: AlanMendelson

Ploppie is an offensive word and I believe it was created by Frank Scoblete in describing unskilled blackjack players.

Interesting, I never considered ploppie to be offensive. To me it is just a casual typical player, like 98% of all casino patrons.

Quote: DRich

Quote: AlanMendelson

Ploppie is an offensive word and I believe it was created by Frank Scoblete in describing unskilled blackjack players.

Interesting, I never considered ploppie to be offensive. To me it is just a casual typical player, like 98% of all casino patrons.
link to original post

Then why not call them casual players?

From the Urban Dictionary:

Semi-derogatory term used by professional gamblers to describe just another sucker at the casino. While professional gamblers are at a blackjack table counting cards, the "ploppies" are the players at the table who the casino loves because they play the game at an average level (or below) and just don't know any better. Sometimes ploppies can get in the way of the professional players.

Quote: AlanMendelson

Quote: DRich

Quote: AlanMendelson

Ploppie is an offensive word and I believe it was created by Frank Scoblete in describing unskilled blackjack players.

Interesting, I never considered ploppie to be offensive. To me it is just a casual typical player, like 98% of all casino patrons.
link to original post

Then why not call them casual players?

From the Urban Dictionary:

Semi-derogatory term used by professional gamblers to describe just another sucker at the casino. While professional gamblers are at a blackjack table counting cards, the "ploppies" are the players at the table who the casino loves because they play the game at an average level (or below) and just don't know any better. Sometimes ploppies can get in the way of the professional players.
link to original post

It doesn't really matter because any word can be made an insult if the intended purpose is to insult.

"You think you're SMART?". "He's a SMART aleck".

See, now are we to not use the word smart?

"WISE guy". Using wise is insulting, correct?

If you wish we can stop calling them Ploppies. How about we call them "Money". It's a term for people who are usually so rich everyone uses them for cash. "Yo, what's up, Money?".

And after all that's what collectively the Ploppies are for. Losing cash to keep the Casinos and AP's in business.

Oh, now we can't call people Money?

Quote: darkoz

Oh, now we can't call people Money?
link to original post

I was called Money for years...

https://youtu.be/luyfSceEuDA

Quote: Dieter

Quote: IWannaBeAP

Quote: heatmap

im the player sitting at the table - i allow you to sponsor my splits and double - thats MY money if i win and your going to have a hell of a time trying to convince the casino to make me give you my winning back lol
link to original post

Is this theft???????????
link to original post

you handing them chips to play.
link to original post

and im pretty sure this is why they are my chips now ... two people cant be at one seat and so on

I used to do a bit of scavenger BJ, but decided it wasn't worth it. Inevitably, it conflicts with the player you are doing it with and just brings un-needed heat. Yes, you lose some EV by not filling in ploppies doubles for less and occasionally will get someone who will let you double down for them, not realizing how dumb it is, but my first rule is not to call attention to myself and the second rule is not to harm a ploppie in the course of my game. Your mileage may vary, but if I need to take advantage of people who don't know any better to beat the game, I'd rather not play.

I always wondered if "plop" referred to the sound of a turd hitting the toilet water. I've always avoided using the word "ploppies" for that reason.

Quote: gordonm888

I always wondered if "plop" referred to the sound of a turd hitting the toilet water. I've always avoided using the word "ploppies" for that reason.
link to original post

I don't like the term, but have not found a better one to describe some players. Not every new player is a ploppie to me. It's a distinction one must earn, and it is not a term of endearment. I'd say it refers to someone who thinks they know more than they do, but isn't that almost all of us? I heard an explanation of the origin years ago but forget it.
Two players could play side by side. Both make the same mistakes. One bitches and moans about every hand the dealer makes, tries to tell others how to play, and revels the table with his tale of a unbelievable run of cards last time out. He is a ploppie. The other player is a seat-filler.

My understanding is that the term comes from players who "plop" themselves on the first open chair they find and start playing without worrying about what game it is or how to play.

These are the type of.people who shout "hit me!" at a Mississippi Stud table.

Quote: DRich

Quote: AlanMendelson

Ploppie is an offensive word and I believe it was created by Frank Scoblete in describing unskilled blackjack players.

Interesting, I never considered ploppie to be offensive. To me it is just a casual typical player, like 98% of all casino patrons.
link to original post

I agree with DRich's definition. Anyone who hasn't mastered perfect basic strategy is a ploppy.

I haven't found a published definition that says ploppie isn't derogatory.

ploppy (plural ploppies)

(slang, derogatory) An unskilled gambler.

But I must admit this forum likes to make up it's own rules and it's own definitions.

If you convince someone to let you double his 11vs 7( as an example), you are screwing him. If the hand draws a ten, you make some money and he gets nothing. If it draws an Ace, you've screwed him because he is stuck with the 12. Had you not doubled, he'd be free to hit.

If you convince someone to let you double his 11vs 7( as an example), you are screwing him. If the hand draws a ten, you make some money and he gets nothing. If it draws an Ace, you've screwed him because he is stuck with the 12. Had you not doubled, he'd be free to hit.

If you convince someone to let you double his 11vs 7( as an example), you are screwing him. If the hand draws a ten, you make some money and he gets nothing. If it draws an Ace, you've screwed him because he is stuck with the 12. Had you not doubled, he'd be free to hit.

Why would you even meddle with another blackjack player's hand?

I thought I once read that what one player does has no bearing on your own hand. Did I remember this incorrectly?

Quote: AlanMendelson

Why would you even meddle with another blackjack player's hand?

I thought I once read that what one player does has no bearing on your own hand. Did I remember this incorrectly?
link to original post

You aren’t attempting to affect your own hand. You are wagering money on the other person’s hand.

Quote: unJon

Quote: AlanMendelson

Why would you even meddle with another blackjack player's hand?

I thought I once read that what one player does has no bearing on your own hand. Did I remember this incorrectly?
link to original post

You aren’t attempting to affect your own hand. You are wagering money on the other person’s hand.
link to original post

Okay... so what about minding your own business?

If the other player wanted to double, he'd double. If he didn't know what a double was, why get involved?

You have no idea what the reaction would be? What if the other player slugged you?

Quote: AlanMendelson

Quote: unJon

Quote: AlanMendelson

Why would you even meddle with another blackjack player's hand?

I thought I once read that what one player does has no bearing on your own hand. Did I remember this incorrectly?
link to original post

You aren’t attempting to affect your own hand. You are wagering money on the other person’s hand.
link to original post

Okay... so what about minding your own business?

If the other player wanted to double, he'd double. If he didn't know what a double was, why get involved?

You have no idea what the reaction would be? What if the other player slugged you?
link to original post

I dunno. I’ve never even considered doing it. Address your questions to someone else.

Quote: AlanMendelson

Why would you even meddle with another blackjack player's hand?

I thought I once read that what one player does has no bearing on your own hand. Did I remember this incorrectly?
link to original post

In the long run, other players have no effect, but short term it is very different. Third base hits 13 vs 6 and busts with a ten. The dealer turns over a ten and draws a 5. My win becomes a loss because of the player drawing a card.
In the long run, it will even out, but the short term is a different story.

But that is a whole other bundle of fish.
What is being discussed is filling in a bet when a player doubles for less. Sometimes a player bets scared and is reluctant to double for the full amount, or may not have the money. I've seen guys on a tilt jump bets from $5 to $50 and then hesitate to double an 11vs 10.
If he doubles for $70, you can fill in the remaining $30.

Quote: AlanMendelson

Quote: unJon

Quote: AlanMendelson

Why would you even meddle with another blackjack player's hand?

I thought I once read that what one player does has no bearing on your own hand. Did I remember this incorrectly?
link to original post

You aren’t attempting to affect your own hand. You are wagering money on the other person’s hand.
link to original post

Okay... so what about minding your own business?

If the other player wanted to double, he'd double. If he didn't know what a double was, why get involved?

You have no idea what the reaction would be? What if the other player slugged you?
link to original post

Once again you are not thinking like an advantage Player.

There is an advantage to suggesting the player doubles if he isn't AND if he will allow you to put up the money for the double.

That's the whole purpose. To take advantage of the given situation such that in most likelihood you will turn a profit.

At any rate it's just a suggestion so why would a player slug you for a request? Most people don't get violent in Casinos because that's the last appearance they will be making in that Casino.

Quote: AlanMendelson

Why would you even meddle with another blackjack player's hand?

I thought I once read that what one player does has no bearing on your own hand. Did I remember this incorrectly?
link to original post

You indeed remembered incorrectly. Me, a card counter, hitting 12s against dealer 6s helps end the negative shoe quicker. Reducing everyone's exposure to the -EV shoe. Saving everyone money.

Me, a card counter, standing on 15s against dealer 9s on a positive shoe prolongs the shoe and makes the positive count last longer (more hands). Increasing everyone's exposure to the +EV shoe.

I don't split 10s.

The vast majority of negative count deviations are hits instead of stands. (Drags out more cards and ends the negative shoe quicker). E.G. hit 12 vs 6

The vast majority of positive count deviations are either stands instead of hits (Saving precious high cards). E.G stand 15 vs 10

or Double instead of hits, which causes the effect of only 1 extra card being taken instead of potentially more. For example, 9 doubling on 7, 10 doubling on A. Basic strategy might end up with 3 extra cards whereas the double will draw only 1 more card. When the count is high, every card is precious. 1 saved hit might mean 1 extra round of hands dealt when the TC is through the roof.

So ploppies, please thank your local card counters for ending negative shoes quickly for you, and prolonging positive shoes for you. You're welcome. Just don't yell at me for hitting that 12 v 6 when I'm trying to help you.

I think advantage players should mind their own business and I say that because I've seen some nasty reactions from players when someone else tells them what to do.

In fact one time at Caesars there was a dealer from a midwest casino telling other players at the table how to bet. She was preaching full odds to players getting single odds, and telling players not to bet hardways and telling players to press...

And she was at a table of regulars.

Now, her advice was sound but the regular players were aggravated and they withheld their anger because she was a woman.... but one by one the regulars moved to other tables or just left.

The boxman was well aware that his regular customers were aggravated by her constant lectures and he politely asked her to stop.

When she DIDN'T stop, he said "no more bets from you." And then told her to leave the pit.

So tell me... do you tell VP players they're on a machine with a bad paytable?

Do you tell VP players to bet 5 coins instead of 3?

Quote: ViennaPizza

Quote: AlanMendelson

Why would you even meddle with another blackjack player's hand?

I thought I once read that what one player does has no bearing on your own hand. Did I remember this incorrectly?
link to original post

You indeed remembered incorrectly. Me, a card counter, hitting 12s against dealer 6s helps end the negative shoe quicker. Reducing everyone's exposure to the -EV shoe. Saving everyone money.

Me, a card counter, standing on 15s against dealer 9s on a positive shoe prolongs the shoe and makes the positive count last longer (more hands). Increasing everyone's exposure to the +EV shoe.

I don't split 10s.

The vast majority of negative count deviations are hits instead of stands. (Drags out more cards and ends the negative shoe quicker). E.G. hit 12 vs 6

The vast majority of positive count deviations are either stands instead of hits (Saving precious high cards). E.G stand 15 vs 10

or Double instead of hits, which causes the effect of only 1 extra card being taken instead of potentially more. For example, 9 doubling on 7, 10 doubling on A. Basic strategy might end up with 3 extra cards whereas the double will draw only 1 more card. When the count is high, every card is precious. 1 saved hit might mean 1 extra round of hands dealt when the TC is through the roof.

So ploppies, please thank your local card counters for ending negative shoes quickly for you, and prolonging positive shoes for you. You're welcome. Just don't yell at me for hitting that 12 v 6 when I'm trying to help you.
link to original post

You're playing your own hand... not someone else's.

Quote: darkoz

Once again you are not thinking like an advantage Player.

There is an advantage to suggesting the player doubles if he isn't AND if he will allow you to put up the money for the double.

That's the whole purpose. To take advantage of the given situation such that in most likelihood you will turn a profit.

At any rate it's just a suggestion so why would a player slug you for a request? Most people don't get violent in Casinos because that's the last appearance they will be making in that Casino.
link to original post

Darkoz is right. I've been thanked many times by ploppies who are out of money to bankroll their obvious splits and doubles. Many, many times. Especially splits, where if they can't afford the full amount, they can't split.

Once a ploppy had went all in with his last $45 and got dealt AA. I sponsored his AA split and not only did we win, but also on top of the $45 I won from the house, he gave me $5 from his own pile and thanked me hard!

Quote: darkoz

Most people don't get violent in Casinos because that's the last appearance they will be making in that Casino.
link to original post

You're correct, most people don't get violent. But you've never seen a fight?

One fight can ruin your day.

Quote: AlanMendelson

Quote: ViennaPizza

Quote: AlanMendelson

Why would you even meddle with another blackjack player's hand?

I thought I once read that what one player does has no bearing on your own hand. Did I remember this incorrectly?
link to original post

You indeed remembered incorrectly. Me, a card counter, hitting 12s against dealer 6s helps end the negative shoe quicker. Reducing everyone's exposure to the -EV shoe. Saving everyone money.

Me, a card counter, standing on 15s against dealer 9s on a positive shoe prolongs the shoe and makes the positive count last longer (more hands). Increasing everyone's exposure to the +EV shoe.

I don't split 10s.

The vast majority of negative count deviations are hits instead of stands. (Drags out more cards and ends the negative shoe quicker). E.G. hit 12 vs 6

The vast majority of positive count deviations are either stands instead of hits (Saving precious high cards). E.G stand 15 vs 10

or Double instead of hits, which causes the effect of only 1 extra card being taken instead of potentially more. For example, 9 doubling on 7, 10 doubling on A. Basic strategy might end up with 3 extra cards whereas the double will draw only 1 more card. When the count is high, every card is precious. 1 saved hit might mean 1 extra round of hands dealt when the TC is through the roof.

So ploppies, please thank your local card counters for ending negative shoes quickly for you, and prolonging positive shoes for you. You're welcome. Just don't yell at me for hitting that 12 v 6 when I'm trying to help you.
link to original post

You're playing your own hand... not someone else's.
link to original post

I was merely discrediting your claim "I thought I once read that what one player does has no bearing on your own hand. Did I remember this incorrectly?"

I'm claiming that Deviations by TC favors favors ending bad shoes quicker and prolonging good shoes. Thus making the game slightly more +EV than if no deviation play were used.

Feel free to show the math to prove me wrong. But I stand by confidently one player's decisions DOES impact the EV of the whole table and I just explained why.

I saw a fight almost happen when the don't pass player rolled a 7...

I was almost in a fight at the Resorts casino in the early 1990's. I was playing BJ and it was very busy and people were back betting. I think the minimum et was $10 back then and a drunk obnoxious guy was back betting on me. He was annoying so I decided to lose a few hand on purpose y hitting until I busted. It probably cost me $50 or so but the guy behind me was betting around $200 a hand. He was not happy that I cost him close to $1000. Security ended up taking him away. In retrospect it was probably very foolish of me because he looked like a guy I shouldn't have aggravated.

A good BJ game has several, if not most, of the players conversing and having a good time. It's not like you are standing around, rushing up to strangers and offering to double. With a couple of friendly ploopies getting involved, it can be EV, and it also slows the game to a crawl. It helps if you are the alpha male at the table, but it's something a decent pitboss can pick up fairly easily.

Quote: AlanMendelson

Quote: darkoz

Most people don't get violent in Casinos because that's the last appearance they will be making in that Casino.
link to original post

You're correct, most people don't get violent. But you've never seen a fight?

One fight can ruin your day.
link to original post

I once asked a bus driver for information on a bus route and he started screaming that he always gets asked questions all day. I mean, screaming in a violent manner such that I wasn't certain he was going to slug me.

That doesn't mean I now refrain from asking directions if I need some.

If one goes through life afraid to ask a question because they might cause a fight one will end up unhappy and living their life in their candle-lit apartment fantasizing about how they beat Roulette and spending all day posting 25,000 posts about nonsense on gambling sites!

i had the biggest dude threaten me because when i sat down he started to lose he said he was part of the KKK and told me to leave the table or else - i didnt because im just dumb and you cant teach dumb people lessons

duplicate click happy post

Quote: Dieter

My understanding is that the term comes from players who "plop" themselves on the first open chair they find and start playing without worrying about what game it is or how to play.


link to original post

This is exactly what it stands for.

Quote: DRich

I was almost in a fight at the Resorts casino in the early 1990's. I was playing BJ and it was very busy and people were back betting. I think the minimum et was $10 back then and a drunk obnoxious guy was back betting on me. He was annoying so I decided to lose a few hand on purpose y hitting until I busted. It probably cost me $50 or so but the guy behind me was betting around $200 a hand. He was not happy that I cost him close to $1000. Security ended up taking him away. In retrospect it was probably very foolish of me because he looked like a guy I shouldn't have aggravated.
link to original post

"... some men just want to watch the world burn.”