I got heat for trying the double 12v2 trick mentioned on GWAE
August 29th, 2022 at 10:06:42 PM
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New AP here. A few months ago, I heard on GWAE of an idea for cover. It is to double for less 12v2, 12v3, to make yourself look like an absolute idiot. Since the EV is around -20% for the double bet, but you could bet just $1, you're basically buying a cover for $0.20. You would have to hit and take one and only one card anyway. Or at least that was the idea.
Well I tried that and it didn't go well.
Dealer yelled "Doubling down on a hard 12". It was double deck, he dealed the double card face up. I had a $100 bet and did the double for less cover for $1. I asked him why he yelled and also why he dealt the card face up. He said "because it's highly unusual and the camera and pit need want to know when someone does that in case they know something they're not supposed to know". (Austin Powers "I like to live dangerously" vibes here). He said this with a very serious face. I got dealt a 9 for a 21, and dealer lost with a 18. Pitboss took a peak at the table and went back to his business.
Great... so instead of being a cover, my "extremely dumbass move that's meant for cover" turned into suspicion that I'm somehow cheating. Got heat, made me nervous to keep card counting. I left shortly after.
No offense to GWAE. I'm sure the advice was with good intentions.
But I thought I'd share this story. Maybe it'll be helpful.
Well I tried that and it didn't go well.
Dealer yelled "Doubling down on a hard 12". It was double deck, he dealed the double card face up. I had a $100 bet and did the double for less cover for $1. I asked him why he yelled and also why he dealt the card face up. He said "because it's highly unusual and the camera and pit need want to know when someone does that in case they know something they're not supposed to know". (Austin Powers "I like to live dangerously" vibes here). He said this with a very serious face. I got dealt a 9 for a 21, and dealer lost with a 18. Pitboss took a peak at the table and went back to his business.
Great... so instead of being a cover, my "extremely dumbass move that's meant for cover" turned into suspicion that I'm somehow cheating. Got heat, made me nervous to keep card counting. I left shortly after.
No offense to GWAE. I'm sure the advice was with good intentions.
But I thought I'd share this story. Maybe it'll be helpful.
August 29th, 2022 at 10:27:49 PM
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LOL, doubling for less with a buck on a $100 hand???
August 29th, 2022 at 10:47:02 PM
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Aren't the double down cards supposed to be dealt face up? I keep seeing them dealt face down on videos. Maybe I'm just too last century and they started dealing them face down since then.
August 30th, 2022 at 1:17:19 AM
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GWAE said that doubling hard 12 was good cover? Pretty much any casino requires their dealers to yell "DOUBLE HARD TWELVE!" any time you do that, and that's exactly why. The top two groups of people who do that are 1) card counters, and 2) intoxicated people.
Casinos are not your friends, they want your money. But so does Disneyland.
And there is no chance in hell that you will go to Disneyland and come back with more money than you went with.
- AxelWolf and Mickeycrimm
August 30th, 2022 at 4:06:46 AM
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They also yell "Hit on Hard 17."Quote: DeucekiesGWAE said that doubling hard 12 was good cover? Pretty much any casino requires their dealers to yell "DOUBLE HARD TWELVE!" any time you do that, and that's exactly why. The top two groups of people who do that are 1) card counters, and 2) intoxicated people.
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No idea how the guy sitting next to me knew it was a +ev move? He got a 3 for 20.
(THis was pre-Covid)
no one came over to check.
i busted out shortly there after and left.
I probably should have bought back in to see how he plays
Craps is paradise (Pair of dice).
Lets hear it for the SpeedCount Mathletes :)
August 30th, 2022 at 4:37:17 AM
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Many years ago, I was at a table with some friends, and we definitely qualified for latter group! It all started when one friend doubled his hard 12 by accident, ignoring the dealer's shout of, "Doubling hard twelve!" He ended up winning the hand, and soon enough, the whole table decided that doubling a hard 12 was a good idea.Quote: DeucekiesGWAE said that doubling hard 12 was good cover? Pretty much any casino requires their dealers to yell "DOUBLE HARD TWELVE!" any time you do that, and that's exactly why. The top two groups of people who do that are 1) card counters, and 2) intoxicated people.
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We were doing it so often that the dealer stopped calling out the play. Well, we would have none of that! We insisted that he call it out to the pit each and every time. Good times!
"Dealer has 'rock'... Pay 'paper!'"
August 30th, 2022 at 4:42:53 AM
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Quote: DeucekiesGWAE said that doubling hard 12 was good cover?
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I believe it was their esteemed guest for that episode, not the GWAE usual hosts.
My fallible recollection was that there was no clear count-betsize correlation, so a skills check wouldn't highlight any obvious hinky business, and that there may have been more going on.
They were not advocating that everyone should go out and double hard 12 whenever possible. Such is not the path to wealth and happiness.
May the cards fall in your favor.
August 30th, 2022 at 5:45:47 AM
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IWannaBeAP,
For context for those who missed the podcast, the GWAE episode from July 15, 2021 featured the Bishop, Arnold Snyder, discussing his latest BJ book, "Radical Blackjack":
https://www.lasvegasadvisor.com/gambling-with-an-edge/podcast-arnold-snyder/
At about 32 minutes in, he mentions the "doubling 12 vs. 2" idea in the context of fooling computer analysis of a card counter's play.
You doubled 12 vs. 2.... so far, so good. Where you erred was in questioning the house procedures at that point. If you are trying to look the part of the happy-go-lucky idiot gambler, you should not be dissecting the house procedures. Instead, as you were putting out the DD wager you should've told everyone at the table that your gut said an 8 or 9 is coming, so "Let's gamble!" When the 9 actually appeared, you should have performed a victory dance while proclaiming how your gut is rarely wrong.
You seem to be confusing "cover" for "anonymity". Any time you make an idiot play, you draw attention to yourself. The idea is to convince the dealer, pit boss, and surveillance that you are an idiot, so they'll quit analyzing your play. This works only if they first notice that you've made an idiot play.
Hope this helps!
Dog Hand
For context for those who missed the podcast, the GWAE episode from July 15, 2021 featured the Bishop, Arnold Snyder, discussing his latest BJ book, "Radical Blackjack":
https://www.lasvegasadvisor.com/gambling-with-an-edge/podcast-arnold-snyder/
At about 32 minutes in, he mentions the "doubling 12 vs. 2" idea in the context of fooling computer analysis of a card counter's play.
You doubled 12 vs. 2.... so far, so good. Where you erred was in questioning the house procedures at that point. If you are trying to look the part of the happy-go-lucky idiot gambler, you should not be dissecting the house procedures. Instead, as you were putting out the DD wager you should've told everyone at the table that your gut said an 8 or 9 is coming, so "Let's gamble!" When the 9 actually appeared, you should have performed a victory dance while proclaiming how your gut is rarely wrong.
You seem to be confusing "cover" for "anonymity". Any time you make an idiot play, you draw attention to yourself. The idea is to convince the dealer, pit boss, and surveillance that you are an idiot, so they'll quit analyzing your play. This works only if they first notice that you've made an idiot play.
Hope this helps!
Dog Hand
August 30th, 2022 at 6:45:08 AM
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Dog is right. First impressions are key.
However, first impressions are only good if they are LASTING impressions.
Doubling on twelve? Idiot.
Doubling for less? 99% less???
That’s someone who is trying to LOOK like an idiot - a giant red flag.
If you’re gonna double on 12, DOUBLE it!
However, first impressions are only good if they are LASTING impressions.
Doubling on twelve? Idiot.
Doubling for less? 99% less???
That’s someone who is trying to LOOK like an idiot - a giant red flag.
If you’re gonna double on 12, DOUBLE it!
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ —————————————————————————————————————
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
August 30th, 2022 at 7:01:55 AM
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Quote: DJTeddyBearDog is right. First impressions are key.
However, first impressions are only good if they are LASTING impressions.
Doubling on twelve? Idiot.
Doubling for less? 99% less???
That’s someone who is trying to LOOK like an idiot - a giant red flag.
If you’re gonna double on 12, DOUBLE it!
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They usually don't let you double for more
May the cards fall in your favor.
August 30th, 2022 at 7:35:14 AM
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Quote: ChumpChangeAren't the double down cards supposed to be dealt face up? I keep seeing them dealt face down on videos. Maybe I'm just too last century and they started dealing them face down since then.
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From what I've seen they're normally dealt face down in most hand-dealt (single- and double-deck) games, but doubling on a stiff may be an exception since there's a possibility of busting (and the casino doesn't want to wait until after the hand is over to resolve it).
August 30th, 2022 at 9:08:39 AM
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Saw some old Dude double on Hard 20! Dealer looked puzzled & asked again. Old dude said "Double!" Dealer didn't even bother calling it out to the floor and just dealt him the bust card.
August 30th, 2022 at 10:55:17 AM
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Thanks for all of your suggestions. I need to clarify 2 things.
1: The dealer is essentially accusing anyone who double downs on a stiff as "Somehow knows the next card out of the shoe". Which is, severe cheating. Even beyond hole carding level cheating.
2: I wanted to draw attention of the pit, not of surveillance. Especially if I'm being accused of "cheating". As in, if this place thinks double down on a stiff is cheating, surveillance would be watching me for peaking at the next card. And I'm afraid in that process of watching me, they find something else instead - me card counting.
And for anyone who is confused about the face up face down thing, DD doubles are dealt face down.
I wanted to portray an image of a dumbass with this 12v2 play, not the image of a cheater. Getting that 9 on my 12 doesn't help with the image of "Knowing something you're not supposed to know".
1: The dealer is essentially accusing anyone who double downs on a stiff as "Somehow knows the next card out of the shoe". Which is, severe cheating. Even beyond hole carding level cheating.
2: I wanted to draw attention of the pit, not of surveillance. Especially if I'm being accused of "cheating". As in, if this place thinks double down on a stiff is cheating, surveillance would be watching me for peaking at the next card. And I'm afraid in that process of watching me, they find something else instead - me card counting.
And for anyone who is confused about the face up face down thing, DD doubles are dealt face down.
I wanted to portray an image of a dumbass with this 12v2 play, not the image of a cheater. Getting that 9 on my 12 doesn't help with the image of "Knowing something you're not supposed to know".
August 30th, 2022 at 11:08:56 AM
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I've always played my best game, and won as much as I could. I got banned for a couple years from Blackjack but at least I won a lot before it happened. Imagine if I had been banned after underplaying or playing badly deliberately such that I had won less or even lost.
I tell you it’s wonderful to be here, man. I don’t give a damn who wins or loses. It’s just wonderful to be here with you people.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/betting-systems/33908-the-adventures-of-mdawg/
August 30th, 2022 at 11:20:44 AM
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Quote: Dieter
They usually don't let you double for more
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As we say in Blighty, 'Chance would be a fine thing'
My UK Bricks and Mortar casinos not only don't permit 'Doubling for less', but neither of the dealers I tried it with had any concept of the possibility. You Double for Double: Them's the rules.
When I double a hard 12, I usually announce. "Time for a cheeky, cheeky double". Never got heat for it. Or if I did, I was too drunk to notice.
Doubling for $1 on a $100 hand is pretty noticeably zany.. Getting the 9 would just make it all the more memorable.
I reckon the guy who doubled a hard 20 probably meant to split the tens.
When I get irritated by a certain dealer who deals quicker than needed and preempts my move, I deliberately annoy him back by trying to double after a hit or having a long, conspicuous think about the most obvious decision. Just to break his flow. It's funny when I say double for a fourth card and he deals me the next card before realising what he's done.
Another stymie for an over zealous dealer is to not put a chip in the circle and take a casual swig from my coffee. When he deals to my empty circle, he has grass himself up to the supervisor and back up the cards, which I can then wager on, or not, as I see fit.
I know.... Discourteous play, but I reserve it for discourteous dealers.
Last edited by: OnceDear on Aug 30, 2022
Psalm 25:16
Turn to me and be gracious to me, for I am lonely and afflicted.
Proverbs 18:2
A fool finds no satisfaction in trying to understand, for he would rather express his own opinion.
August 30th, 2022 at 1:39:24 PM
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Knowing the next card out cuts both ways in my experience. Once had it work for me and another time had it work against me!
First time, dealer pulled a card to 1st base without a hand signal, she yelled she didn't ask for a card and stands on her 15. Card, an 8, was then held, everyone waved it off as it would've busted their 17-19s. Dealer with Ace showing, turns over soft 13 and you know the rest! She tried to capitalize on the situation and it backfired badly.
Second time, dealer on auto pilot shows 4 and 2nd base has hard 15. Dealer gives 2nd base a card accidentally and it's a 7! He obviously objects and they say the card won't get dealt there but goes to the next player, which was me! I have hard 14 and ask "Can I double down", floor says Sure! Which I gleefully do and enjoy my extra profit. Dealer has ten in the hole and I'm a hero all of a sudden! Well, not really just a beneficiary of dumb luck!
First time, dealer pulled a card to 1st base without a hand signal, she yelled she didn't ask for a card and stands on her 15. Card, an 8, was then held, everyone waved it off as it would've busted their 17-19s. Dealer with Ace showing, turns over soft 13 and you know the rest! She tried to capitalize on the situation and it backfired badly.
Second time, dealer on auto pilot shows 4 and 2nd base has hard 15. Dealer gives 2nd base a card accidentally and it's a 7! He obviously objects and they say the card won't get dealt there but goes to the next player, which was me! I have hard 14 and ask "Can I double down", floor says Sure! Which I gleefully do and enjoy my extra profit. Dealer has ten in the hole and I'm a hero all of a sudden! Well, not really just a beneficiary of dumb luck!
August 30th, 2022 at 2:05:13 PM
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Quote: OnceDearWhen I get irritated by a certain dealer who deals quicker than needed and preempts my move, I deliberately annoy him back by trying to double after a hit or having a long, conspicuous think about the most obvious decision.
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You, the player, bought the hand.
If the dealer preemptively assumes your course of play, they are depriving you of much entertainment value.
The player gets to play their hand.
They should be involved in the game, not a mere spectator as the dealer pumps out cards as they see fit.
I'll skip most of my rant.
May the cards fall in your favor.
August 30th, 2022 at 2:44:46 PM
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Quote: DieterQuote: OnceDearWhen I get irritated by a certain dealer who deals quicker than needed and preempts my move, I deliberately annoy him back by trying to double after a hit or having a long, conspicuous think about the most obvious decision.
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You, the player, bought the hand.
If the dealer preemptively assumes your course of play, they are depriving you of much entertainment value.
The player gets to play their hand.
They should be involved in the game, not a mere spectator as the dealer pumps out cards as they see fit.
I'll skip most of my rant.
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My sentiment exactly. There is one dealer that used to do this to players all the time, which I found most disrespectful.
Psalm 25:16
Turn to me and be gracious to me, for I am lonely and afflicted.
Proverbs 18:2
A fool finds no satisfaction in trying to understand, for he would rather express his own opinion.
August 30th, 2022 at 3:25:56 PM
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Quote: 7NeverWinsSaw some old Dude double on Hard 20! Dealer looked puzzled & asked again. Old dude said "Double!" Dealer didn't even bother calling it out to the floor and just dealt him the bust card.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qfX35o7v6XY
