Counting While Using a Players Card

I know, this is a novel subject nobody has talked about before. At least it's not a thread about tipping.

I realize the answer nearly every expert/pro gives to this question is a flat "don't do it". I also realize that every noob desperately wants to use one because "OMG free stuff". Hopefully this thread will have a bit more nuance than both sides shouting the same thing over and over at each other, though I am a dreamer.

To the best of my understanding, the pros advise not to give up your ID because if you are made as a counter, then you can no longer play rated. This has always bothered me, as it basically seems to be backing yourself off (which is another thing most pros advise against). If you don't play rated, then it doesn't matter if you can't play rated or not. It's always struck me as a bit of a disconnect.

The other thing pros mention in regards to ID is getting databased after being backed off. Of course we don't want that to happen! But how much worse is it being databased with your ID as opposed to without it. The casino/database puts your name in there + a picture from your ID. Everything else that goes in would go in anyway during a back-off. So in this case, you're basically back around to not being able to play rated since you played rated, which in practice is almost the same as not playing rated because you don't want to play rated.

Perhaps when pros say "If you play rated and get caught, you won't be able to play rated in the future", they're saying that you want to be able to play rated in the future for something better. The "something better" would (in my limited understanding) be playing as a BP on something beyond counting, or perhaps moving up to purple+ stakes where the game begins to be more about hustling comps such as show-up money, "airfare", loss rebates, and other high-end comps that have some cash value (I'm leaving soft comps out of the discussion).

It would make sense to me if the advice was more "save your ID for when you can really maximize it". But I don't get that impression that that's what the cognoscenti mean when saying "don't play rated". Perhaps I'm mistaken.

RWM is always saying that your ID has value. Arnold Snyder's latest book is full of stories where he was clearly playing rated (in fact, that was some substantial EV for him), so he clearly decided to "cash in" his ID.

How do you decide when to "cash in" on your ID?

When you're cashing out over $10K each night, but the cage may want ID for cashing out over $1K, and the table may ask for ID when you buy-in. If you get a free drink, you may be ID'd. You can't get in the front door of the casino without an ID. Seems they want ID, at some point or another.

Quote: Kanedias

<snip>How do you decide when to "cash in" on your ID?
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Kanedias,

First of all, let me say, "Welcome to the WOV Forum!"

Let me also compliment you on a very good first post.

Here's a story that may help to answer your question. Many years ago, in my red-chipping days, I regularly played rated at Casino X. Over the years of playing there I got numerous free meals from them.

One day I got "the tap" and the old standard, "No more BJ, but any other game..." yada yada yada. A month later, Casino X placed an ad in the daily newspaper offering new cardmembers a one-time match play worth any amount of the player's choosing up to $2500. When word spread through the AP community, AP's teamed up (to share the variance) and flew in from around the country to take advantage of this incredible offer by playing a single hand of BJ. Not only did they get the benefit of the match play, they also received very generous mailers for months afterwards as Casino X tried to lure them to return and play a bit more.

Naturally I was ineligible. Thus, in exchange for some free meals, I missed out on a very lucrative offer worth thousands of dollars.

Hope this helps!

Dog Hand

Dog hand has a compelling story.

There are of course counter stories for every lost new members offer of offers for existing card members only.

For example Resorts World NYC in 2013 was only a year old and wanted to boost their card membership.

Any card member with six months history could take part in the "bring a friend" offer. The friend got $100 Freeplay for signing up and the existing members got $50. Limited to once per week.

Well you better believe I had a new friend every week and that lasted for months. It was invaluable in my early days of expanding my players cards (I use other people's players cards).

It seems once they ID your face, even without a name attached, you are toast so I say play rated. The real skill in BJ AP is to go unnoticed, not undetected. It's okay to let them know who you are, but not what you do

Good luck.

I remember a dealer at a 21+3 Xtreme BJ table paid out nearly $700 to one lucky player and urged her to leave the casino a winner. This was at a $5 table; at a $25 table, that could have been a $3,500 win. Casinos jack up the table minimums so only people buying in for $TooMuch gamble $BigBets and cashout at the $BigCage. Casinos are really bogus going after the small red chippers.

Quote: ChumpChange

When you're cashing out over $10K each night, but the cage may want ID for cashing out over $1K, and the table may ask for ID when you buy-in. If you get a free drink, you may be ID'd. You can't get in the front door of the casino without an ID. Seems they want ID, at some point or another.
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Yeah, I'm familiar with when casinos ask for ID. I don't imagine you'd get by for long without ID trying to cash out $10k profit each night. Or with it, for that matter, lol. In your other examples, I think most APs would just refuse to provide ID.

Quote: DogHand

Quote: Kanedias

<snip>How do you decide when to "cash in" on your ID?
link to original post

Kanedias,

First of all, let me say, "Welcome to the WOV Forum!"

Let me also compliment you on a very good first post.

Here's a story that may help to answer your question. Many years ago, in my red-chipping days, I regularly played rated at Casino X. Over the years of playing there I got numerous free meals from them.

One day I got "the tap" and the old standard, "No more BJ, but any other game..." yada yada yada. A month later, Casino X placed an ad in the daily newspaper offering new cardmembers a one-time match play worth any amount of the player's choosing up to $2500. When word spread through the AP community, AP's teamed up (to share the variance) and flew in from around the country to take advantage of this incredible offer by playing a single hand of BJ. Not only did they get the benefit of the match play, they also received very generous mailers for months afterwards as Casino X tried to lure them to return and play a bit more.

Naturally I was ineligible. Thus, in exchange for some free meals, I missed out on a very lucrative offer worth thousands of dollars.

Hope this helps!

Dog Hand
link to original post

Thank you for the kind words Dog Hand. :)

It seems you're advocating on waiting to give up your ID until there's an excellent reason not to. But how do you decide when a reason is good enough? If you had been a black chip player instead of red, you'd have made far more than $2,500 (or maybe it was worth $1,250?) in comps prior to that promo being implemented.

As an aside, I came to AP by way of exploiting promotions, and it's rare to find one that's worth four figures in EV on one bet (4 figure promos do happen, but they're usually fairly complex). Even more unusual is that it was a BJ only promo. Seems like a pretty rare confluence of events to make you reconsider playing rated. Most casinos will never have anything like this.

I'm not sure how many meals you got, or what their worth was to you, but enough of them (especially considering the time-value of money) may have ended up being worth more than the value of the promo anyway.

Is your current stance to play unrated to save your ID for a rare great promotion?

Quote: darkoz

<snip>

It seems once they ID your face, even without a name attached, you are toast so I say play rated. The real skill in BJ AP is to go unnoticed, not undetected. It's okay to let them know who you are, but not what you do

Good luck.
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I'm coming more and more to believe that this is the true thing to focus on. Snyder seems to echo this sentiment as well, although the concerning thing to me is that basically every single other big-name pro out there seems to disagree.

Quote: Kanedias

I'm coming more and more to believe that this is the true thing to focus on. Snyder seems to echo this sentiment as well, although the concerning thing to me is that basically every single other big-name pro out there seems to disagree.
link to original post

There's always more than one way to approach things, I think most card counters of today with the less liberal rules have adopted the mindset that you need to hit fast and hard, they will eventually bar you right? So might as well go with the most ridiculous bet spread you can and just make out with as much as variance gives (or takes away) before you are barred. Is this wrong? Well as with everything else, it really depends on the person, their goals, the casinos they intend to go to, etc.

If you can afford the travel expenses, don't care about staying at one casino to long, and you don't plan on being back for a long period of time, perhaps burning it swiftly is the right one, if you don't travel and have only 2 or 3 casinos within reach of you? Well, obviously the approach changes (or you don't count at all and look for other opportunities). My opinion, I think playing rated is fine, it doesn't matter if you play unrated/rated spreading 10-200 (just pulling random numbers), they WILL bar you either way, they already got your ID at the door and it's just a matter of "when" you get caught really, even spreading lower numbers in the red chip range I honestly have a hard time believing at least one surveillance person wouldn't know what you're doing, unless you're cutting into your EV with betting camouflage I suppose.

Quote: TheCapitalShip

Quote: Kanedias

I'm coming more and more to believe that this is the true thing to focus on. Snyder seems to echo this sentiment as well, although the concerning thing to me is that basically every single other big-name pro out there seems to disagree.
link to original post

There's always more than one way to approach things, I think most card counters of today with the less liberal rules have adopted the mindset that you need to hit fast and hard, they will eventually bar you right? So might as well go with the most ridiculous bet spread you can and just make out with as much as variance gives (or takes away) before you are barred. Is this wrong? Well as with everything else, it really depends on the person, their goals, the casinos they intend to go to, etc.

If you can afford the travel expenses, don't care about staying at one casino to long, and you don't plan on being back for a long period of time, perhaps burning it swiftly is the right one, if you don't travel and have only 2 or 3 casinos within reach of you? Well, obviously the approach changes (or you don't count at all and look for other opportunities). My opinion, I think playing rated is fine, it doesn't matter if you play unrated/rated spreading 10-200 (just pulling random numbers), they WILL bar you either way, they already got your ID at the door and it's just a matter of "when" you get caught really, even spreading lower numbers in the red chip range I honestly have a hard time believing at least one surveillance person wouldn't know what you're doing, unless you're cutting into your EV with betting camouflage I suppose.
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You've hit on another train of thought I've had. If you only have a couple "local" shops, then you're going to become known at them one way or the other. So may as well play rated. Unless, of course, they contribute to national databases, and you intend to branch out once you exhaust your locals. If you're going to get banned either way, may as well pick up comps along the way. Plus, using the card gets you some longevity to boot. Although I suppose if your camo was excellent, you could hit a stop-win before getting barred, and it's easier to track that when playing rated.

I definitely get the draw to the "burn it to the ground" people spreading 10-200. With a small bankroll, you kind of need to do that to achieve any sort of decent hourly rate. I'm fortunate to be well-rolled enough to be able to play higher stakes with a smaller spread, and still achieve a high hourly. So, for me personally, the temptation to play rated is high, as at those levels, the comps can be substantial, both as a percentage of total win rate, and in absolute terms of total contribution to the bottom line. Compare it to someone betting $10-$200, who probably has a low rated average bet and a short period of play, what are those comps worth? And the risk is still there of getting databased and ruining promotions at who knows how many casinos elsewhere.

I'd like to thank everyone for the conversation so far. It's helpful to talk these things through, and sharpen up my thinking.

Quote: Kanedias

...To the best of my understanding, the pros advise not to give up your ID because if you are made as a counter, then you can no longer play rated....

That is not why pro's don't advise giving up your ID. If you are made as a counter, while you're learning about very very small edges, you won't be able to play in the same casino later when you eventually learn about much, much larger edges. So basically you're shooting your career in the foot on the first month of the job.

That being said if you're someone that never aspires to do more than count, or if you're a low enough level that the bonuses/FP/etc are a huge part of your edge, then each person should assess and do what's right for their situation. I'll say this: When I started out red chipping blackjack, I played rated. Fortunately I was at a couple shops I knew had good tolerance and never even cared about red chippers, so honestly, after a year or two of play (weekends only) I never got backed off. Pretty fortunate to have a place like this, as well as lucky to not cross the wrong person on the wrong day. Playing rated absolutely helped me build my bankroll, but we had other gambits to help with cover (though cover will always run out).

You need to decide for yourself if it's worth it. All I can tell you as someone that turned pro 3+ years ago now, if you think you're ever going to be interested in bigger edges, different games/machines/promotions, then a clean name is a pretty huge thing to have on your resume in this business.

How come nobody mentioned that playing rated is an effective cover. Given most counters don't play rated?

That's a big reason to play rated.

Especially if you rathole hard and casino sees your record as net loss.

Quote: VladPutin

How come nobody mentioned that playing rated is an effective cover...

Because it's not.

Quote: UP84

Quote: VladPutin

How come nobody mentioned that playing rated is an effective cover...

Because it's not.
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Why not? Most counters don't use player card. This should be obvious.

Quote: Romes

You need to decide for yourself if it's worth it. All I can tell you as someone that turned pro 3+ years ago now, if you think you're ever going to be interested in bigger edges, different games/machines/promotions, then a clean name is a pretty huge thing to have on your resume in this business.
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I absolutely agree here. It's why I'm focusing on the thought process behind using a card (or not), as opposed to soliciting advice for my specific situation. That being said, I wouldn't be red or green chipping.

It seems you would actually agree with my thought from the OP that:

"It would make sense to me if the advice was more "save your ID for when you can really maximize it". But I don't get that impression that that's what the cognoscenti mean when saying "don't play rated". Perhaps I'm mistaken."

It really seems like should be the standard offered advice. Play rated while red-chipping and learning the ropes? Bad idea. Playing purple in a shop that doesn't have worthwhile promos or an opportunity to move beyond counting? Could make sense in that environment.

Quote: VladPutin

How come nobody mentioned that playing rated is an effective cover. Given most counters don't play rated?

That's a big reason to play rated.

Especially if you rathole hard and casino sees your record as net loss.
link to original post

I have mentioned this, lol.

Playing rated does grant you some cover, albeit cover that makes things worse for you when it runs out.

Quote: Kanedias

Quote: VladPutin

How come nobody mentioned that playing rated is an effective cover. Given most counters don't play rated?

That's a big reason to play rated.

Especially if you rathole hard and casino sees your record as net loss.
link to original post

I have mentioned this, lol.

Playing rated does grant you some cover, albeit cover that makes things worse for you when it runs out.
link to original post

I've talked to a former pit boss before and asked him about catching card counters. He made a point of checking people's win/loss history if they're playing rated. I asked him if he kicked anyone for card counting if they're at a net loss. And he said, "Seriously? If they're losing we still have the advantage, they just suck at counting. Why would I kick them"

This is why I stress the importance of ratholing on a player card. You shouldn't get kicked if you're a net loser.

Quote: VladPutin

Quote: Kanedias

Quote: VladPutin

How come nobody mentioned that playing rated is an effective cover. Given most counters don't play rated?

That's a big reason to play rated.

Especially if you rathole hard and casino sees your record as net loss.
link to original post

I have mentioned this, lol.

Playing rated does grant you some cover, albeit cover that makes things worse for you when it runs out.
link to original post

I've talked to a former pit boss before and asked him about catching card counters. He made a point of checking people's win/loss history if they're playing rated. I asked him if he kicked anyone for card counting if they're at a net loss. And he said, "Seriously? If they're losing we still have the advantage, they just suck at counting. Why would I kick them"

This is why I stress the importance of ratholing on a player card. You shouldn't get kicked if you're a net loser.
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Lol, bless the little pit critters' hearts.

Another benefit of ratholing is some places comp based on actual win/loss too.

Quote: Kanedias

Another benefit of ratholing is some places comp based on actual win/loss too.
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Correct, I have near solid proof of golden nugget at vegas comping based on win/loss and not on play