BJ - splitting face cards - ethical or a table no-no ???
May 21st, 2022 at 6:20:21 PM
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I've been doing a lot of practicing on the Wizards blackjack trainers I need an ethics opinion on splitting face
cards.
I can split face cards twice (against dealer 5,6 for example) I get 3 hands going with a good shot of
the dealer busting also. Usually two of the 3 hands pay out. Sometimes all 3. Triple bang for the initial bet.
I won't try this at the casino much because I don't like to mess up table chemistry so to say.
But if it is a slow table with only a few people, I will split K-J to see if I can hit two or three high cards
consecutively. Even if I hit and 8 or 9, the odds are still good and I get more into my wager.
Is this frowned upon by the ethics of trying to maximize winnings when I feel the timing is right?
When it works out its great. Of course it can backfire but I would say the odds favor it...
cards.
I can split face cards twice (against dealer 5,6 for example) I get 3 hands going with a good shot of
the dealer busting also. Usually two of the 3 hands pay out. Sometimes all 3. Triple bang for the initial bet.
I won't try this at the casino much because I don't like to mess up table chemistry so to say.
But if it is a slow table with only a few people, I will split K-J to see if I can hit two or three high cards
consecutively. Even if I hit and 8 or 9, the odds are still good and I get more into my wager.
Is this frowned upon by the ethics of trying to maximize winnings when I feel the timing is right?
When it works out its great. Of course it can backfire but I would say the odds favor it...
May 21st, 2022 at 6:24:50 PM
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I've seen too many ways the VBJ machine dealer can pull a 21 out of a low up card. It's frightening. Keep your 20. Splitting 10's at a table is generally a bad idea because that might be something bad players do.
May 21st, 2022 at 6:45:59 PM
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The way I see it its similar to playing multiple hands. When I am up to a healthy roll of house money
and there are only 2 or 3 people at the table, I may opt play 2 or 3 hands. I see splitting face cards as
adding an extra hands worth of cards. Yes, it is breaking up a 20, but if you can get 18, 19, and 20
against a dealer 5 or 6 - then el magico can happen and I triple up...
and there are only 2 or 3 people at the table, I may opt play 2 or 3 hands. I see splitting face cards as
adding an extra hands worth of cards. Yes, it is breaking up a 20, but if you can get 18, 19, and 20
against a dealer 5 or 6 - then el magico can happen and I triple up...
May 21st, 2022 at 6:51:14 PM
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I may try it next time anyways. I'll play a few hours and see how the auto shuffler is behaving after dealer mid cards (4-7). Buff Creek has the automatic shufflers with 8 decks. 'I'll watch a few times I pair em before I test it out. And try and keep an eye on the count as well... Thanks...
May 21st, 2022 at 7:09:41 PM
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If I'm trying to wreck a losing streak on a shoe game, I'd split 10's.
There's a hailstorm on the way and I really should be heading to the casino parking garage to protect my car, but I also should go back to bed after being up all night.
There's a hailstorm on the way and I really should be heading to the casino parking garage to protect my car, but I also should go back to bed after being up all night.
May 21st, 2022 at 7:16:14 PM
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Quote: wizardofbuffalo(snip) I may opt play 2 or 3 hands.(snip)
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IMO, it is probably just "worth*** it" if you "try to split as many 10s against a 6 as possible" (when the max^^^ split is 3 hands or more)
***: Smarter people than me will say things like "never split tens, as a basic strategy player",
^^^: If you do decide to split, it is a "bad play" to stop at 2 hands, if you have the option to split again to 3 or more, against a 6.
May 21st, 2022 at 7:27:31 PM
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thanks. where I play lets me split twice so I can get 3 hands going if the next card is another face card. Chump change disagrees with the move. says if you want mess up a shoe bad players would do it. Then again he'd be blaming other players after leaving broke anyways. If everybody at the table is losing and the tempo needs a quick adjustment on an automatic shuffler? Some wizardly brilliant triple up moves could get the entire table mojo back on track. If your getting pounded anyways by playing by the book, you would be a dumsky not to try something to alter the outcome in your favor. A triple up would buy a 'bad player' as chumpchange states a few inferior moves of a buffer...
May 21st, 2022 at 7:35:00 PM
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Stormy in Buffalo too. Why would you have to protect a car thats in a parking garage. Take a nap in it and get back in there...
May 21st, 2022 at 7:36:19 PM
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If you aren't counting cards, you are costing yourself money by splitting them.
If you are counting cards, splitting them will bring heat and shorten your playing time- costing you money..
Successful gamblers plan for the long term. They don't hope for short-term luck.
If you are counting cards, splitting them will bring heat and shorten your playing time- costing you money..
Successful gamblers plan for the long term. They don't hope for short-term luck.
The older I get, the better I recall things that never happened
May 22nd, 2022 at 4:57:20 AM
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Quote: wizardofbuffaloI've been doing a lot of practicing on the Wizards blackjack trainers I need an ethics opinion on splitting face
cards.
...
I won't try this at the casino much because I don't like to mess up table chemistry so to say.
...
Is this frowned upon by the ethics of trying to maximize winnings when I feel the timing is right?
When it works out its great. Of course it can backfire but I would say the odds favor it...
link to original post
Ethics opinion. Your chips: Your choice. If you want to play a strategy that lets you lose them quicker, then go for it. It's a -EV game anyway unless you are counting.
Who cares what other players think of your bit of fun.
No.... The odds don't favour it. That's just plain wrong. But whatever floats your boat. Hit on hard 20 if it gives you amusement. That'll get a reaction from other players.
Psalm 25:16
Turn to me and be gracious to me, for I am lonely and afflicted.
Proverbs 18:2
A fool finds no satisfaction in trying to understand, for he would rather express his own opinion.
May 22nd, 2022 at 5:41:54 AM
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Theres nothing ethically wrong with it
Financially? Sure. Its a bad play.
However, the entertainment value of the reaction of the other players and dealer may be more than worth it. 👍
Financially? Sure. Its a bad play.
However, the entertainment value of the reaction of the other players and dealer may be more than worth it. 👍
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
May 22nd, 2022 at 9:01:59 AM
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Quote: billryanIf you aren't counting cards, you are costing yourself money by splitting them.
If you are counting cards, splitting them will bring heat and shorten your playing time- costing you money..
Successful gamblers plan for the long term. They don't hope for short-term luck.
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I "thanked" or "liked" this post, but want to acknowledge it even further. It is the best post or at least my favorite that you have made...maybe ever including other forums we were on.. :)
For a card counter not splitting 10's (at the appropriate index) will cost you money short term. And splitting 10's at the appropriate index will cost you even more money in the long run. It is a lose / lose proposition.
A player needs to decide which is more important for him, short term or long term. For most serious card counters, that is a no brainer, or should be.
May 22nd, 2022 at 9:42:52 AM
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May 22nd, 2022 at 10:03:50 AM
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I haven't seen that video before heatmap, but have seen similar videos. That is exactly why most casinos have a re-splitting limit. lol
Now let's look at the math of this round. Let's just assume that the count was +5 or so, which would make this a +EV play, even though it likely wasn't. The rather small gain in EV from splitting and re-splitting 10's vs dealer 6, would be more than offset by the 4+ minutes it took to play out that hand. In those 4 minute a card counter playing a count worthy of splitting 10's could have gotten 4 rounds in, if playing at a full table with even a slow dealer. Maybe as many as 20 rounds playing with fewer players up with a decent dealer. :)
And that before you even get into any discussion about drawing attention and the heat that comes with it, costing longevity and much larger loss of EV.
Now let's look at the math of this round. Let's just assume that the count was +5 or so, which would make this a +EV play, even though it likely wasn't. The rather small gain in EV from splitting and re-splitting 10's vs dealer 6, would be more than offset by the 4+ minutes it took to play out that hand. In those 4 minute a card counter playing a count worthy of splitting 10's could have gotten 4 rounds in, if playing at a full table with even a slow dealer. Maybe as many as 20 rounds playing with fewer players up with a decent dealer. :)
And that before you even get into any discussion about drawing attention and the heat that comes with it, costing longevity and much larger loss of EV.
May 22nd, 2022 at 5:55:50 PM
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I am writing from my phone, so will explain my methodology later.
But I put the ev, chance figures, etc into a spreadsheet and I get somewhere between 2% and 3% improvement to the overall ev for splitting 10s v 6 (when you can split to 3 hands)
Note 1: the above is for infinite deck
Note 2: for 6-deck, I get 0.5% (or higher) as the improvement for splitting over standing.
Update: I now get an EV figure within 0.01% of everyone else (so I think I know what I did wrong).
But I put the ev, chance figures, etc into a spreadsheet and I get somewhere between 2% and 3% improvement to the overall ev for splitting 10s v 6 (when you can split to 3 hands)
Note 1: the above is for infinite deck
Note 2: for 6-deck, I get 0.5% (or higher) as the improvement for splitting over standing.
Update: I now get an EV figure within 0.01% of everyone else (so I think I know what I did wrong).
Last edited by: ksdjdj on May 22, 2022
May 22nd, 2022 at 10:01:11 PM
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Edit: See update in the post above.
Last edited by: ksdjdj on May 22, 2022
May 22nd, 2022 at 10:57:02 PM
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Quote: ksdjdjQuote: wizardofbuffalo
IMO, it is probably just "worth*** it" if you "try to split as many 10s against a 6 as possible" (when the max^^^ split is 3 hands or more)
***: Smarter people than me will say things like "never split tens, as a basic strategy player",
^^^: If you do decide to split, it is a "bad play" to stop at 2 hands, if you have the option to split again to 3 or more, against a 6.
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Looks like there is a reason "smarter people than me" work these things out.
In other words, never splitting tens is the correct play for all "regular BJ style" games.
May 23rd, 2022 at 2:07:07 PM
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Ethics and casino should not be used in the same sentence.
May 23rd, 2022 at 2:45:59 PM
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Go to a $1 blackjack games like in Oyo (formerly known as Hooter's Casino), or Downtown Grand and have a blast splitting 10's. It's a blast. Why stop there? Split your 5's against the dealer's face of ace up card.
