Auto Backed off after Using Casino Hotel wifi on these AP sites

Warning: Don't visit AP sites (such as the math version of this site) while you're on a casino hotel's wifi with your last name and room number registered to the wifi, they can see what sites you're on.

Just got auto back-off'd at Rio. By auto I mean within 10 minutes, while I was losing, while the shoe was negative, while I was on 1-1 spread because the shoe is just damn bad. So obviously something else caused the back-off.

I've been to vegas several times this past year and always done the same thing without problems. Made a bunch of money too. The only thing I did differently this time was I had to use hotel's wifi to browse AP sites this time. I used to tether data off my phone for that, since I have 30GB/mo data. This month for some reason I ran out early, so I used casino hotel's wifi. and BOOM I got backed off later. Everything else I did were the same as my previous many successful vegas trips.

So one or more of these sites I was on must be the suspect - that the casino hotels look for the url. And match it to your name, since their wifi login forces you to give them your last name and room number. Then they flag you as AP and ban you before you even start your BJ session. Damn, shoulda seen that coming.

wizardofodds com
blackjackscience com
blackjackincolor com
bj21 com
blackjackapprenticeship com
blackjackinfo com

(No direct links because apparently I can't post links as a new member, pretend there is a dot before the com)

Quote: WhydIgetBackoff

Warning: Don't visit AP sites (such as the math version of this site) while you're on a casino hotel's wifi with your last name and room number registered to the wifi, they can see what sites you're on.

Just got auto back-off'd at Rio. By auto I mean within 10 minutes, while I was losing, while the shoe was negative, while I was on 1-1 spread because the shoe is just damn bad. So obviously something else caused the back-off.

I've been to vegas several times this past year and always done the same thing without problems. Made a bunch of money too. The only thing I did differently this time was I had to use hotel's wifi to browse AP sites this time. I used to tether data off my phone for that, since I have 30GB/mo data. This month for some reason I ran out early, so I used casino hotel's wifi. and BOOM I got backed off later. Everything else I did were the same as my previous many successful vegas trips.

So one or more of these sites I was on must be the suspect - that the casino hotels look for the url. And match it to your name, since their wifi login forces you to give them your last name and room number. Then they flag you as AP and ban you before you even start your BJ session. Damn, shoulda seen that coming.

wizardofodds com
blackjackscience com
blackjackincolor com
bj21 com
blackjackapprenticeship com
blackjackinfo com

(No direct links because apparently I can't post links as a new member, pretend there is a dot before the com)
link to original post

Fake news. You were backed off for other reasons besides your internet surfing choices.



ZCore13

Can't say for sure which site (or combination of sites) was probably the reason, but after a cursory glance I believe every one except the Wizard of Odds*** (WoO) site could have been a major factor in getting the "auto back off".

***: Unless you looked at a "card-counting" and / or an "AP specific" page on the WoO, one example of this could be the "bj trainer", see link here >>> https://wizardofodds.com/play/blackjack-v2/

---
Edit (after seeing Zcore's post above):

Have you ever tried to be an AP at that casino or related property before?
If yes, it could be (mostly or all) to do with those previous plays(?)

Quote: WhydIgetBackoff

Everything else I did were the same as my previous many successful vegas trips.

So one or more of these sites I was on must be the suspect - that the casino hotels look for the url.
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(quote trimmed)

Correlation is not causation.

I believe there is some old advice about "don't stay where you play".
From the computer side, the advice might go something like "VPN".

It certainly seems more logical that prior history on the gaming floor may have caught up with you than an IT effort to configure a traffic sniffer to issue a security alert and have well groomed staff wearing suits welcome you and invite you to not play cards.

I'm all for paranoia when they are out to get you.

Just because you are paranoid is no reason to think there isn't a balrog in the woodpile.

Quote: billryan

Just because you are paranoid is no reason to think there isn't a balrog in the woodpile.
link to original post

Tru dat, yo.

I still don't think that my paranoia is the reason there is a balrog in the woodpile. No matter; she uses headphones to listen to music and eats the giant spiders, which is convenient.

I rarely find myself in agreement with Zcore13, but I think it is unlikely that your backoff is a result of casino monitoring your online viewing. It would take a lot of effort and manpower to monitor everyone using the casinos wifi.

I have found that when I experience a backoff rather quickly, before I have really gotten into my play, that it is a result of 1 of 2 things.

1) previous play that was evaluated probably after I was gone or they didn't have enough time to take action when that play occurred. This could be the result of a large win on previous play, or just cycling through bet spread and return to small wager at the shuffle a number of times (something I try to avoid). This back off on the next trip type of thing is especially common if you are playing rated. As soon as you give your card they see a message to back you off.

2). the second common possibility is play, like a large win, or cycling through your bet spread that raised suspicion at another property or location. If this occurrence resulted in an entry into one of the databases, that you might not even know about, that entry and information, travels faster than you do to the next location. So a new location that uses that database, your entry, will be front and center (new) and they will take action.

I had this second one occur on a trip back east. I was playing Valley Forge Casino in Pa, before they were owned by Boyd, and I had problems there in the past (backoffs), but it was close to a friends home where I was visiting and she wanted to hit Valley Forge. I though, what the hell, I will play aggressively and if they back me off AGAIN, no big deal, I won't be back for 6 months to a year, if ever.

So the session went about as planned. I forget if I won or lost, but I spread aggressively and was fairly quickly backed off. When I returned home to Vegas a few days later, I was immediately backed off at one of my regular casinos, and then a second backoff a couple days later at another regular joint. Valley Forge had placed an entry with picture in one of the databases, which traveled back to Vegas faster than I did. :/

Quote: kewlj

I rarely find myself in agreement with Zcore13, but I think it is unlikely that your backoff is a result of casino monitoring your online viewing. It would take a lot of effort and manpower to monitor everyone using the casinos wifi.

I have found that when I experience a backoff rather quickly, before I have really gotten into my play, that it is a result of 1 of 2 things.

1) previous play that was evaluated probably after I was gone or they didn't have enough time to take action when that play occurred. This could be the result of a large win on previous play, or just cycling through bet spread and return to small wager at the shuffle a number of times (something I try to avoid). This back off on the next trip type of thing is especially common if you are playing rated. As soon as you give your card they see a message to back you off.

2). the second common possibility is play, like a large win, or cycling through your bet spread that raised suspicion at another property or location. If this occurrence resulted in an entry into one of the databases, that you might not even know about, that entry and information, travels faster than you do to the next location. So a new location that uses that database, your entry, will be front and center (new) and they will take action.

I had this second one occur on a trip back east. I was playing Valley Forge Casino in Pa, before they were owned by Boyd, and I had problems there in the past (backoffs), but it was close to a friends home where I was visiting and she wanted to hit Valley Forge. I though, what the hell, I will play aggressively and if they back me off AGAIN, no big deal, I won't be back for 6 months to a year, if ever.

So the session went about as planned. I forget if I won or lost, but I spread aggressively and was fairly quickly backed off. When I returned home to Vegas a few days later, I was immediately backed off at one of my regular casinos, and then a second backoff a couple days later at another regular joint. Valley Forge had placed an entry with picture in one of the databases, which traveled back to Vegas faster than I did. :/
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KewlJ

Check out my latest entry in my GN AC vs Darkoz thread. You can read about what valley Forge did in my case. I posted the actual documents

WoW! I'm embarassed from all the porn sites they saw me on now.

I skimmed the last pages DarkOz. I don't want to hijack this thread of this particular person's incident, but there are a handful of casinos that are to be avoided by AP at all costs. These casinos have the mentality that they are at war with AP's and will spend $1 to save a nickel in thwarting AP play. Some of the worse offenders in my universe of casinos that I play regularly or played regularly are Valley Forge and Cosmopolitan here in Vegas. South Point just behind them. .

Now understand I am not talking about a casino that sweats action, or is known as sweaty in blackjack circles. I am talking about a mentality that they are at war with AP's, and will spend way more money fighting AP's than they are saving. These casinos always have some sort of bean counter high up that is convinced advantage players are effecting their bottom line much, much more than they are.

However, all that said, I am not aware of Rio being in that category.

So you guys are safe using wizard of odds site while you're in a hotel casino's wifi? No backoffs?

I specify it has to be the kind of wifi where it forces you to give room number and last name. I stayed at Luxor the other day and all it asked was "check here to accept terms and conditions"

Quote: WhydIgetBackoff

So you guys are safe using wizard of odds site while you're in a hotel casino's wifi? No backoffs?

I specify it has to be the kind of wifi where it forces you to give room number and last name. I stayed at Luxor the other day and all it asked was "check here to accept terms and conditions"
link to original post

If you are uncomfortable and really believe using the wifi was the problem, then don't use the wifi. lol.

I'd be interested in the answer to other questions though.

Do you play rated? If yes, what happened last couple of times you played this property rated? Any big wins? Any long sessions, even without a win, that you cycled through your bet spread a couple times?

What about where you played before this? You mentioned Luxor. In recent play at another casino, did you score a big win, or play rated and cycle through bet spread a few times?

Quote: WhydIgetBackoff

So you guys are safe using wizard of odds site while you're in a hotel casino's wifi? No backoffs?

I specify it has to be the kind of wifi where it forces you to give room number and last name. I stayed at Luxor the other day and all it asked was "check here to accept terms and conditions"
link to original post

There are issues of privacy at play here. I don't think a casino would risk having it disclosed that they monitored internet activity and took actions as a result.

What would regular patrons feel if they understood their porn website activities may have been monitored?

Logging into banking information from your hotel website?

I don't think the casinos would risk something like that getting out just to stop some AP play.

Quote: darkoz

Quote: WhydIgetBackoff

So you guys are safe using wizard of odds site while you're in a hotel casino's wifi? No backoffs?

I specify it has to be the kind of wifi where it forces you to give room number and last name. I stayed at Luxor the other day and all it asked was "check here to accept terms and conditions"
link to original post

There are issues of privacy at play here. I don't think a casino would risk having it disclosed that they monitored internet activity and took actions as a result.

What would regular patrons feel if they understood their porn website activities may have been monitored?

Logging into banking information from your hotel website?

I don't think the casinos would risk something like that getting out just to stop some AP play.
link to original post

I was thinking the same too. Every wifi connection should have "Privacy policy" and "Terms and conditions". Did you read rio's T&C in their wifi, and in it, does it allow them to spy on you? If it does, then they probably do spy on you. If it doesn't, then they probably legally can't. If it doesn't say they can spy on you and you're sure they backed you off because you visited WoO, you can probably sue the casino, i think?

Quote: VladPutin

If it doesn't say they can spy on you and you're sure they backed you off because you visited WoO, you can probably sue the casino, i think?
link to original post

I do not think that readers of WoO have been granted status as a protected class. (Yet.)

The closest anything to this has ever come is once my bank contacted me after I used a hotel WiFi and forced me to change my PW, saying that login was insecure and could have been monitored. Somehow the bank detected something about whatever WiFi I had just used. But even then the bank wasn't worried about the hotel itself accessing the WiFi they just meant that identity thieves in house could have broken into that Wifi network. This happened a few years ago, and as I recall, it actually was at a Vegas casino hotel.

Ever since, I always use a VPN when accessing hotel WiFi, but I'm not even sure if that would help as far as if someone were able to access the Wifi from the back end.

Over all though, there is no way anyone working at a casino knows or would care what you use the hotel WiFi for as far as deciding whether or not to ban you from Blackjack play.

Quote: Dieter

Quote: VladPutin

If it doesn't say they can spy on you and you're sure they backed you off because you visited WoO, you can probably sue the casino, i think?
link to original post

I do not think that readers of WoO have been granted status as a protected class. (Yet.)
link to original post

The lawsuit would be for invasion of privacy. Not specifically AP or WOV related.

Quote: MDawg

Ever since, I always use a VPN when accessing hotel WiFi, but I'm not even sure if that would help as far as if someone were able to access the Wifi from the back end.
link to original post

It does.

Interesting.

Quote: kewlj

Quote: WhydIgetBackoff

So you guys are safe using wizard of odds site while you're in a hotel casino's wifi? No backoffs?

I specify it has to be the kind of wifi where it forces you to give room number and last name. I stayed at Luxor the other day and all it asked was "check here to accept terms and conditions"
link to original post

If you are uncomfortable and really believe using the wifi was the problem, then don't use the wifi. lol.

I'd be interested in the answer to other questions though.

Do you play rated? If yes, what happened last couple of times you played this property rated? Any big wins? Any long sessions, even without a win, that you cycled through your bet spread a couple times?

What about where you played before this? You mentioned Luxor. In recent play at another casino, did you score a big win, or play rated and cycle through bet spread a few times?
link to original post

Played at about 6 different strip casinos. Rated. Scored decent but not big wins. Average session is 1.5-2h. Bet spread 1-8, starts at 2, goes down to 1 at -2TC, 8 at 5+TC.

Once again, never had a problem with everything else I did. the only thing different this time is using wifi to access AP sites.

Quote: kewlj

I skimmed the last pages DarkOz. I don't want to hijack this thread of this particular person's incident, but there are a handful of casinos that are to be avoided by AP at all costs. These casinos have the mentality that they are at war with AP's and will spend $1 to save a nickel in thwarting AP play. Some of the worse offenders in my universe of casinos that I play regularly or played regularly are Valley Forge and Cosmopolitan here in Vegas. South Point just behind them. .

Now understand I am not talking about a casino that sweats action, or is known as sweaty in blackjack circles. I am talking about a mentality that they are at war with AP's, and will spend way more money fighting AP's than they are saving. These casinos always have some sort of bean counter high up that is convinced advantage players are effecting their bottom line much, much more than they are.

However, all that said, I am not aware of Rio being in that category.
link to original post

Got more info on where I can find the list of "at war with AP to the point of self harm" Casinos?

Side thought, if they hated APs that much they can just switch to cunt shufflers like entire europe does, right? I don't understand why it's different between USA and europe, not saying one is better than the other, I don't know enough to say. Just weird it's like that.

*ahem*
Keep it polite. Consider this a warning for profanity.

Quote: Dieter

*ahem*
Keep it polite. Consider this a warning for profanity.
link to original post

You might want to explain just what the problem is - assuming it was the choice of word for a CSM.

I just assumed it was an abbreviation of the word "continuous" with a typo. Although maybe OP really does hate those European #!@$^ shufflers! ;)

Quote: ThatDonGuy

Quote: Dieter

*ahem*
Keep it polite. Consider this a warning for profanity.
link to original post

You might want to explain just what the problem is - assuming it was the choice of word for a CSM.
link to original post

I'm assuming it was a benign typo for CSM.

I blame auto-correct. And society, of course.

I am currently at a strip casino. I am on the wifi right now, in my hotel room, on this website.

I’ll let this thread know if I get backed off the blackjack table later.

That did make me chuckle though.

In my former life, I did internet monitoring for the company. It was the early days and the technology was not very sophisticated. Still we put a couple of kiddie porn folks in jail, rescued an employee who had suffered a mental break and was 'lost', lots of stories. By the time I left, the tech was super sophisticated and the following scenario can happen, completely automatically:
1. Gambler checks in, gets a room, player card is associated with that room (either for comps, or reward credits for spending money on the room)
2. Gambler gets on wifi, surfs a lot of sites.
3. Surfing touches on AP sites. Monitoring software recognizes this, generates an alert.
4. Alert either gets a human in the loop, or more likely, just automatically creates a diary entry on the player's card account that says "Possible AP"
5. Takes some time for the pit boss/supervisor to notice the diary entry, or maybe they just wanted to watch gambler for signs of AP.
6. Backoff occurs.

No 'invasion of privacy'--the automation did everything from monitoring to the diary entry. Besides, the casino has a perfectly reasonable excuse to employ monitoring--like kiddie porn--to justify installing the monitoring. Besides, the ToS probably notes that monitoring will happen, so you've got no recourse.

Just always assume they're watching you...or tether off your phone....or get a mobile hot spot.

Excellent VPN service can be used on your cell phone and computer for less than US$3/month. Assuming your DNS lookups are done over the VPN connection (very important), the WiFi or Ethernet provider has limited information about your activity. They know when and for how long you connected to VPN service, plus the volume of data sent and received. They do not know which sites you visited. The data is encrypted. They might guess correctly, based on the data transfer rate, that you are streaming video. The will not know whether you are visiting a naughty site, watching a Game of Thrones episode, or viewing a sporting event. Cheap peace of mind. Especially if your are working with your finances on a public service.

Quote: BleedingChipsSlowly

Excellent VPN service can be used on your cell phone and computer for less than US$3/month. Assuming your DNS lookups are done over the VPN connection (very important), the WiFi or Ethernet provider has limited information about your activity. They know when and for how long you connected to VPN service, plus the volume of data sent and received. They do not know which sites you visited. The data is encrypted. They might guess correctly, based on the data transfer rate, that you are streaming video. The will not know whether you are visiting a naughty site, watching a Game of Thrones episode, or viewing a sporting event. Cheap peace of mind. Especially if your are working with your finances on a public service.
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Hotel Wifi oftentimes feels like you're on a dial-up connection.... and now you want someone to add a VPN to that?

People should just use their phones as a hot-spot, assuming you get fair service in the room.

Quote: BleedingChipsSlowly

The will not know whether you are visiting a naughty site, watching a Game of Thrones episode, or viewing a sporting event.
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... or are remotely accessing your corporate intranet to mitigate some petty crisis that is disrupting your vacation, although that doesn't usually go through CyberSud Discount Privacy Pty LTD VPN.

Like every damned vacation I took in the last fifteen years I worked for the company.

Once they offered hotspots, I was on one like a flash. A few years before retirement, the company instituted "work from home" one night a week. Everyone fought for Friday, nobody wanted Monday. I took Mondays.

By then, my ratings were to the point where I had a free room 10 months out of 12, every night of the week. I'd begin "working from casino", where I'd gamble Sunday night, crash, get up Monday five minuted before the start of work, and log in. Check out was noon, so I'd do that, stash the overnight bag, then hang out in the elevator lobby on one of the floors. Had a window with a view, a wall outlet, some nice comfy chairs, and a table. Sure, people came by, but nobody ever hassled me, some of then smiled and gave me a thumbs up. At quitting time I'd play for a few hours, then head back home. Tuesday was back in the office and no fun.

Quote: BillHasRetired

Like every damned vacation I took in the last fifteen years I worked for the company.

Once they offered hotspots, I was on one like a flash. A few years before retirement, the company instituted "work from home" one night a week. Everyone fought for Friday, nobody wanted Monday. I took Mondays.

By then, my ratings were to the point where I had a free room 10 months out of 12, every night of the week. I'd begin "working from casino", where I'd gamble Sunday night, crash, get up Monday five minuted before the start of work, and log in. Check out was noon, so I'd do that, stash the overnight bag, then hang out in the elevator lobby on one of the floors. Had a window with a view, a wall outlet, some nice comfy chairs, and a table. Sure, people came by, but nobody ever hassled me, some of then smiled and gave me a thumbs up. At quitting time I'd play for a few hours, then head back home. Tuesday was back in the office and no fun.
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Many employers now track where you are connecting from when working remotely. Using a VPN, my location is always New York City as far as anyplace I connect with can tell. I could work from a café in Estonia and my IP address would appear as located in NYC. That said, I have not used that tactic; it is not worth risking my job. There is always a chance a coworker on vacation will spot you.

Quote: BillHasRetired

Like every damned vacation I took in the last fifteen years I worked for the company.

link to original post

I was typing how great it is to not get tech support calls while on time-off anymore when I got interrupted by a tech support call while on time-off.

I am not in a tech support role.
Fortunately, it was quick.

Quote: BleedingChipsSlowly

<snip> I have not used that tactic; it is not worth risking my job. There is always a chance a coworker on vacation will spot you.
link to original post

From 8am until noon checkout, I was in my room. From noon until quitting time, I was on (example) the elevator lobby of floor 17 of Bayside Tower. Since it was afternoon, everyone who was going to checkout was already gone, and since checkin wasn't until 1600, I was relatively safe from new, incoming folks. Everyone else was down in the casino or out and about. If I saw five people in the afternoon, that was crowded.

I didn't start doing this in earnest until after I had made the minimums in retirement, plus, I always told my supervisor what was going on. He remains a cool guy, and we keep in touch.

I haven't read the entire thread, but if it hadn't been already mentioned, USE A VPN!

And with all due respect to the few APs who post here, this isn't an AP site.

Quote: 21forme

I haven't read the entire thread, but if it hadn't been already mentioned, USE A VPN!

And with all due respect to the few APs who post here, this isn't an AP site.
link to original post

Invasion of the Ploppy snatchers

A bunch of Ploppies who claim to be AP's.

But can't answer easy questions about how comps work.