Reno Blackjack disputed hand revisited
Poll
 | 18 votes (66.66%) | ||
| | 9 votes (33.33%) |
27 members have voted
December 13th, 2010 at 6:35:41 PM
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From the Wizards site: http://www.sweatthemoney.com/sands1.html
"a player doubled on A8, got a 2, the dealer drew to 17, and casino management refused to pay him, saying the player had 11."
from the player "This little casino allows double on 9, 10, 11 only. This is stated in a sign on the table."
From the ruling of the Gaming Board that the Wizard linked to in the article, what would have happened if the player could double on any 2 cards?
I say the player would then have 21 and win the hand.
"a player doubled on A8, got a 2, the dealer drew to 17, and casino management refused to pay him, saying the player had 11."
from the player "This little casino allows double on 9, 10, 11 only. This is stated in a sign on the table."
From the ruling of the Gaming Board that the Wizard linked to in the article, what would have happened if the player could double on any 2 cards?
I say the player would then have 21 and win the hand.
December 13th, 2010 at 7:49:09 PM
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Wow. Talk about losing to a lousy technicality.
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ —————————————————————————————————————
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
December 13th, 2010 at 8:19:23 PM
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I take the player's side 100%. As the player noted in his complaint, any ambiguity in the rules should go against the party writing them. Here the casino had a rule that if the player doubled on A8 the ace was forced to count as 1. However, the rule was nowhere in writing and the player was not warned about it. There is little doubt, in my opinion, that this was a very bad ruling on the part of Gaming.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
December 13th, 2010 at 8:28:10 PM
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The casino was technically within its rights to count the A8 as a hard 9 once it was doubled. It was also a cheapo, angle shot to do so, and any casino that did that would deserve to lose every single one of its customers.
I am shocked, I tell you, SHOCKED that the Nevada Lapdog, er, Gaming Control Board sided with the casino in this dispute. Who would have thought that those armor-clad paladins of honest gaming on white chargers would have done so?????
I am shocked, I tell you, SHOCKED that the Nevada Lapdog, er, Gaming Control Board sided with the casino in this dispute. Who would have thought that those armor-clad paladins of honest gaming on white chargers would have done so?????
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
December 13th, 2010 at 8:49:26 PM
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Since you brought up sweatthemoney.com, why is it no longer updated nor listed in the Wizard Family of Websites (TM)? I think it is a great site and serves a useful purpose.
"Dice, verily, are armed with goads and driving-hooks, deceiving and tormenting, causing grievous woe." -Rig Veda 10.34.4
December 13th, 2010 at 8:58:41 PM
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Quote: teddysSince you brought up sweatthemoney.com, why is it no longer updated nor listed in the Wizard Family of Websites (TM)? I think it is a great site and serves a useful purpose.
Thanks for the compliment on that site. To this day the number of disputes players brought to me directly is zero. There was not enough material to gain a certain critical mass for the site to take off. I don't want to direct my readers to a site I'm not proud of.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
December 13th, 2010 at 8:58:55 PM
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I think, the player should not have been allowed to double in the first place. Ace is supposed to count as one or eleven to make the best hand. A8 is therefore nineteen, and should not be allowed to be doubled under the rules.
I think, he should have argued that in his complaint.
If you count A8 as nine, and insist it can be doubled, than the board is clearly correct - 9+2=11, there is no ambiguity.
My understanding is that the whole purpose of allowing the doubles on 9,10,11 only is to exclude soft doubles. The basic strategy calculator at http://www.online-casinos.com/blackjack/basic-strategy-calculator.php (I could not find Wizard's page that allows this option) says one should stand on A8, I am guessing, for this reason.
I understand how it sucks for the player, but have to conclude that the casino was right in this case.
I think, he should have argued that in his complaint.
If you count A8 as nine, and insist it can be doubled, than the board is clearly correct - 9+2=11, there is no ambiguity.
My understanding is that the whole purpose of allowing the doubles on 9,10,11 only is to exclude soft doubles. The basic strategy calculator at http://www.online-casinos.com/blackjack/basic-strategy-calculator.php (I could not find Wizard's page that allows this option) says one should stand on A8, I am guessing, for this reason.
I understand how it sucks for the player, but have to conclude that the casino was right in this case.
"When two people always agree one of them is unnecessary"
December 13th, 2010 at 9:07:22 PM
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Quote: weaselmanI think, the player should not have been allowed to double in the first place. Ace is supposed to count as one or eleven to make the best hand. A8 is therefore nineteen, and should not be allowed to be doubled under the rules.
I think, he should have argued that in his complaint.
If you count A8 as nine, and insist it can be doubled, than the board is clearly correct - 9+2=11, there is no ambiguity.
I've been in this situation before and was warned that if I doubled my ace would remain as 1 point. That is the what should have happened at the Sands, if they must have that silly rule to begin with. The effect on the house edge is very tiny in the casino's favor. Without the warning, I think the ace should be allowed to switch from 1 to 11 points at the player's will.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
December 14th, 2010 at 8:41:25 AM
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Funnily enough, I actually visited the Sands Regency when I was last in Reno (a sad dump of a casino, BTW...no reason to ever go back) and they had electronic marquees everywhere saying something to the effect of "An Ace shall ALWAYS count as 1 when doubling down in the double-deck game." So they weren't upfront about it at the time, but they are definitely trying to play CYA now...
"I believe I've passed the age/of consciousness and righteous rage/I've found that just surviving was a noble fight...
I once believed in causes too/I had my pointless point of view/And life went on no matter who was wrong or right..." --Billy Joel
December 15th, 2010 at 8:19:15 AM
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deleted
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
December 15th, 2010 at 8:57:11 AM
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This hand was easily handled a completely DIFFERENT way, although no one bothered to think about it that way.
(I haven't read this entire thread)
At the conclusion of the hand, if the player demanded he had 21, if I were the Pit, I would have said:
"OK, if you have 21, then we're only going to count the original wager and act as if you HIT the hand, rather than doubled, because in a double situation, you played the ace as a 1."
If I were the player I would have suggested this in the first place. It would still be a $100 winner.
(I haven't read this entire thread)
At the conclusion of the hand, if the player demanded he had 21, if I were the Pit, I would have said:
"OK, if you have 21, then we're only going to count the original wager and act as if you HIT the hand, rather than doubled, because in a double situation, you played the ace as a 1."
If I were the player I would have suggested this in the first place. It would still be a $100 winner.
Gambling calls to me...like this ~> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Nap37mNSmQ
December 15th, 2010 at 9:01:38 AM
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deleted
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
August 8th, 2011 at 12:25:09 PM
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I can say that I have doubled this hand under double 9,10,11 only rules and had the full expectation that the ace would count as both 1 or 11. The dealer told me it was an acceptable hand to double and did not mention that the ace could only count as one. (Un)fortunately I don't think i had it play out to the point that it mattered as in the original case here.
Does anyone know if the original player even appealed the decision and if there was a change?
Does anyone know if the original player even appealed the decision and if there was a change?
August 8th, 2011 at 1:39:04 PM
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A blackjack side bet called Shortie is being played at Boomtown, 10 miles away from Reno. This side bet pays 3 to 1 right away if a player's initial two cards score 9 or lower. The side bet is a contract bet and it will stay when the play of the blackjack hand continues. If the player wins the 21 hand, the 2nd payout for the side bet is 2 to 1 while the main bet is the regular even money. Obviously an initial Ace is counted as 1, and then in the "regular 21 game" Ace would be counted as whatever the optimal count could be. This side bet is approved in Nevada and the game rules approved are exactly as what I said above, according to Boomtown. If this game were played at Sands, I wonder how the house would pay players.
August 8th, 2011 at 2:09:52 PM
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Player won. Double A8, get a deuce, and it's 21 every time, no excuses.
There were no restrictions on doubling a soft hand by these rules, - AND there is NO "rigged tally" on the Blackjack hand of A-8-2. It's 21 EVERY time in EVERY place. This is by the rules going in.
That hand is NOT counted as 21 in the dealer's hand, but then as "sometimes" 11 and "sometimes" a 21 in the player's hand.
Total Bullshit. They should be fined by Gaming.
There were no restrictions on doubling a soft hand by these rules, - AND there is NO "rigged tally" on the Blackjack hand of A-8-2. It's 21 EVERY time in EVERY place. This is by the rules going in.
That hand is NOT counted as 21 in the dealer's hand, but then as "sometimes" 11 and "sometimes" a 21 in the player's hand.
Total Bullshit. They should be fined by Gaming.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
