IN BETWEEN BET BLACKJACK

I know the In Between bet, isn't a good bet and it does come with a 5.1% house edge. However, many players are attracted to the almost 27% pay out rate, and the potential for the 30-1 hit on a 3oaK.

I know at Mardi Gras, the in between has saved me with many 2 card, 1 card, or triple matches when the blackjack game as gone south and I know there are way worse games than a 5.1% house edge game in a casino.

Hopefully, the foreward of this post eliminates the things I already know, with people saying no one should ever play it, and its not a good bet.

Here is my question though...

What do you think the size of your side bet should be in relation to your main blackjack bet if you absolutely were going to play this game on an 8 deck shoe? Say you are betting $25/hand on blackjack. Is a $5 in between bet good enough? Is there a better bet size? Does it even matter at all?

I do see a lot of players at Mardi Gras who will play table minimum blackjack hands ($10), while max betting the in between ($50). That isn't for me. I'd rtaher my primary game be basic strategy blackjack with a potential nice hit coming on the In Bet with it.

The Expected Loss is the House Edge (expressed as a decimal) multiplied by the amount being bet. You've already said that it's not a good bet, so as far as I can tell, there is no, "Bet should be."

Why are you making the side bet? What are your goals? What do you want the side bet to accomplish?

In the rare event I play Craps, I bet the Crap Check for $1 on the CO roll simply because I don't like losing money (overall) in one roll. Granted, if a point number is established, the Crap Check bet is lost and the PL unresolved...if the Crap Check wins, then that means the line bet has lost, but that's why I play it. Like you, I know how much my expected loss is on each bet.

So, there is no, "Should be," without knowing what it is you want the side bet to accomplish.

I infer from the OP the desired goal is to save the player from ruin, i.e., all the money you’re willing to gamble has been donated to the casino. That’s not going to happen, but what if there is some ratio of of betting amounts that best delays the inevitable? That is, some added value for the loss is possible by probably extending playing time? If there is no such viable strategy, that would be good to know, too. I don’t have the resources to find the answer; perhaps another forum member does.

Quote: mwalz9

I do see a lot of players at Mardi Gras who will play table minimum blackjack hands ($10), while max betting the in between ($50). That isn't for me. I'd rtaher my primary game be basic strategy blackjack with a potential nice hit coming on the In Bet with it.
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is it just me but what I think you and others should do is simply just play multiple hands per deal, rather than put money on a bad side bet. You're gonna go much further that way with your bankroll.

For instance, last night I was playing $100 hands with $25 on the in between. I lost like 4 hands in a row and BOOM I hit a triple match paying 30-1 or $750.

I also hit a few 2 cards 4-1 and multiple 4+ card in betweens for even money.

I just like the potential that that 4-1, 6-1, or especially 30-1 can salvage a bad run on the regular game.

Its also the only side bet Ill ever play!

I also feel like the In Between is the scariest blackjack bet for the casino as opposed to TriLux, Lucky Ladies, etc as Mardi Gras did away with it until players were outraged, caused an uproar and now they brought it back but only on $25/hand+ blackjack tables. You will not find that bet on a $5, $10, or $15 game. That alone leads me to believe its the best player side bet out there, if you must play one!

Have you ever played the actual game "In Between" ( also known as Acey-Deucey). It can be, actually, a scary game. It is the sort of game played in fraternities (and probably also - in prison!) but here is how we used to play it in my frat:

I haven't played since college days but I remember most of the rules. Draw two cards, decide whether to bet anywhere from one chip or unit or dollar (whatever minimum unit you were playing with) up to the whole pot, draw a third card and if it landed in between you won, outside you lost, and so on until the pot was empty and you started over. We also used to play that if you declared a certain amount and the third card that landed matched either of the two drawn first, you had to pay double. Whenever I played it was a one on one game: just two players.

I recall one time playing it when the pot got so big that I just had to declare that we deduct a certain amount from it, because it was just too high for a couple of college students (and no matter that we were in a private _____ college and who our parents were, most all college students are cash poor at times). That time, I ended up winning the pot anyway after we agreed to reduce it but I think I would have had a hard time collecting the debt if it had stayed at the level it was.

Anyway, so at the casino you describe do you have to pay double if the third card that lands matches one of the ends? And is it an automatic loss (pay something to the pot) if the two cards are consecutive and no way to land a third in between? or some other rule applies in that case. What about aces, when one lands are you able to call it as high or low immediately? You didn't describe the actual rules, I just heard the term In Between and assumed it was something like the real game.

Just as a point of reference ... you can count this bet to make it marginally profitable, $15 per 100 hands with $100 bets. Still 100x better than counting baccarat.

https://www.888casino.com/blog/side-bets/card-counting-the-in-between-blackjack-side-bet

Boring story compared to the 5 figure wins you read about in here. Just a low to mid rolling, basic strategy playing degenrate gambler who loves math and fun....

Last night bought into a blackjack table for $400. $25 base bet. $5 on in between. Lose 7 hands in a row. Say screw it and go all in for $125 on next hand with $10 on in between. 4,7 vs dealer 5. Take the $70 from the 2 card In Between win and double my 11 for less. Get a 10! 21! Back up to $390!

Next hand $25 base bet. $10 in between. 7,7 vs a 7! $300 in between win!

BOOM!

Quote: mwalz9

Boring story compared to the 5 figure wins you read about in here. Just a low to mid rolling, basic strategy playing degenrate gambler who loves math and fun....

Last night bought into a blackjack table for $400. $25 base bet. $5 on in between. Lose 7 hands in a row. Say screw it and go all in for $125 on next hand with $10 on in between. 4,7 vs dealer 5. Take the $70 from the 2 card In Between win and double my 11 for less. Get a 10! 21! Back up to $390!

Next hand $25 base bet. $10 in between. 7,7 vs a 7! $300 in between win!

BOOM!
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It's good to have fun, but if you love math you should never double for less, because you're just literally giving up money when you're in an advantageous position =)... assuming correct doubling strategy of course.

Basically the side bet is bad, as you know. You'll of course have nights (as you've posted above) where you're down and hit that 30-1 sweet pay to be even or up! As you said above it "saved" you a couple times... but in the long run every time you bet it you're losing money. If you bet $10 avg on the side bet you're losing 51 cents every single hand you make the bet. So in the long run, the best way to "make" money from that bet, is to literally not bet it. But alas, if you're there for a good time and to have fun and understand that you will not win long term, then there is no "right" or "wrong" bet, it's whatever you want it to be. Since you're there for fun, do whatever seems like the most fun for you.

Quote: Romes

It's good to have fun, but if you love math you should never double for less, because you're just literally giving up money when you're in an advantageous position =)... assuming correct doubling strategy of course.

Are you saying mathematically it is wrong to double down for less even if you have most of the bet? eg. $100 BJ bet get 8,3 vs 5 but you only have $95 left. Would that be wrong? My guess is no, but doubling down for $5 would be wrong. What percent of the wager would you have to have to make doubling the proper play?

Quote: DRich

Quote: Romes

It's good to have fun, but if you love math you should never double for less, because you're just literally giving up money when you're in an advantageous position =)... assuming correct doubling strategy of course.

Are you saying mathematically it is wrong to double down for less even if you have most of the bet? eg. $100 BJ bet get 8,3 vs 5 but you only have $95 left. Would that be wrong? My guess is no, but doubling down for $5 would be wrong. What percent of the wager would you have to have to make doubling the proper play?
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In your example of an 11 versus a 5, since you are at the advantage, and will never take a second card, you should double even if it is just for an extra penny. It gets complicated if you have hands like a 9 total versus a 5. Since by doubling you are giving up the extra card you will be taking if you draw a deuce, that has to be factored in. Soft hands can also have that type of complexity.

Edit…. the main point really should be if you place a BJ bet and can’t deal appropriately with the need to split and/or double, you shouldn’t be betting that much!

The double for less was the only money I had on me. I was all-in at the time.

The dealer wouldn't have stopped the game to let me run to the ATM.

Quote: mwalz9

The double for less was the only money I had on me. I was all-in at the time.

The dealer wouldn't have stopped the game to let me run to the ATM.
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That’s my point! If you don’t have enough for a simple double down don’t make the bet! But……. Congratulations!

Quote: mwalz9

The double for less was the only money I had on me. I was all-in at the time.

The dealer wouldn't have stopped the game to let me run to the ATM.
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Here is how I would work the "cut-off" figures for "doubling for less":

1: Use a site like >>> https://wizardofodds.com/games/blackjack/hand-calculator/ <<< to work out the "hit value" and "double value".
2: Divide the "double value" by 2
3: Take the value from "Step 2" away from the "hit value"
4: Divide the "Step 3" figure from" from "Step 2" figure.
5: Multiply the value calculated from "Step 4" by your initial bet to work out whether you should double for less or hit (see example for more details)

Example: Player 8-3 (11) vs Dealer 10, and $100 initial bet

Rules 6-Deck, Dealer Stands on Soft 17 and Hole Card Rule: "American" (other rules not relevant, for this example)

1: The hit value is: +0.117850 , and the double value is: +0.176919
2: 0.176919 / 2 = 0.0884595
3: 0.117850 - 0.0884595 = 0.0293905
4: 0.0293905 / 0.0884595 = 0.332248....
5: This means that you should double for less if you can bet an additional $33.23*** (or more^^^) on that hand and you should hit if you have $33.22*** (or less) available.

***: Most "live tables" I play at make you bet in units of $5, so the "real world cut offs" would probably be $35 or more (you should double "what you have available") and $30 or less (hit).

^^^: Although, always make full double bets when BS says to whenever possible (in other words, try to bet small enough on the initial bet, so that you have enough to "make the full double").

Quote: SOOPOO

Quote: mwalz9

The double for less was the only money I had on me. I was all-in at the time.

The dealer wouldn't have stopped the game to let me run to the ATM.
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That’s my point! If you don’t have enough for a simple double down don’t make the bet! But……. Congratulations!
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Exactly. I would never bet anything I couldn't fully double, thus giving up EV/edge.

Quote: Romes

Quote: SOOPOO

Quote: mwalz9

The double for less was the only money I had on me. I was all-in at the time.

The dealer wouldn't have stopped the game to let me run to the ATM.
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That’s my point! If you don’t have enough for a simple double down don’t make the bet! But……. Congratulations!
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Exactly. I would never bet anything I couldn't fully double, thus giving up EV/edge.
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I bet that’s not true. If you happened to run out of the bankroll in your pocket during a good count and only had 2.6 max bets on you, do you:

1) bet because it’s still plus EV or
2) not bet because you might have to split and get a double that you couldn't play in full?

ETA: I guess there’s a reasonable #3 of betting less than a full bet, but my gut says that’s less EV+ Be an interesting math problem to solve for optimal bet size for this ultra rare situation

I bet it is true =). Even back in just my blackjack days I used to calculate out my EV, estimate number of hours, and 3SD's and bring that much to have. Next, whenever that odd day came and I came up short and fell short, I would resize bets appropriately. Again, on that "last hand" I still wouldn't be betting anything I couldn't fully split and double down.

This can be further expanded on . What to do if you are on a trip and running out of money. Do you cut down on your bet sizes and try to grind it out for the remainder of trip? Or should you bet as normal and risk running out of money. I believe Grosjean analyzed this and determined that you should bet as normal and not cut down on bet sizes.

Quote: Hunterhill

This can be further expanded on . What to do if you are on a trip and running out of money. Do you cut down on your bet sizes and try to grind it out for the remainder of trip? Or should you bet as normal and risk running out of money. I believe Grosjean analyzed this and determined that you should bet as normal and not cut down on bet sizes.
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It's going to come down to EV really. How small do you have to resize? If you have the funds to replenish on the next trip then I agree the EV is higher to continue betting as though you have your full bankroll. You just might have to also understand that if you do fall short and bust, you're also going to be losing table hours and hands that you could have played at a reduce rate the rest of your trip... so if this is day 2/5, that might be something to consider to resize, whereas if it's day 4/5 or 5/5 then yeah I'd keep shooting the full bets as long as possible.

...and still leaving enough on the last hand to split/double =D.

Quote: Romes

Quote: Hunterhill

This can be further expanded on . What to do if you are on a trip and running out of money. Do you cut down on your bet sizes and try to grind it out for the remainder of trip? Or should you bet as normal and risk running out of money. I believe Grosjean analyzed this and determined that you should bet as normal and not cut down on bet sizes.
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It's going to come down to EV really. How small do you have to resize? If you have the funds to replenish on the next trip then I agree the EV is higher to continue betting as though you have your full bankroll. You just might have to also understand that if you do fall short and bust, you're also going to be losing table hours and hands that you could have played at a reduce rate the rest of your trip... so if this is day 2/5, that might be something to consider to resize, whereas if it's day 4/5 or 5/5 then yeah I'd keep shooting the full bets as long as possible.

...and still leaving enough on the last hand to split/double =D.
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How many splits and doubles do you have to leave yourself with that last bet?

Quote: unJon

Quote: Romes

Quote: Hunterhill

This can be further expanded on . What to do if you are on a trip and running out of money. Do you cut down on your bet sizes and try to grind it out for the remainder of trip? Or should you bet as normal and risk running out of money. I believe Grosjean analyzed this and determined that you should bet as normal and not cut down on bet sizes.
link to original post

It's going to come down to EV really. How small do you have to resize? If you have the funds to replenish on the next trip then I agree the EV is higher to continue betting as though you have your full bankroll. You just might have to also understand that if you do fall short and bust, you're also going to be losing table hours and hands that you could have played at a reduce rate the rest of your trip... so if this is day 2/5, that might be something to consider to resize, whereas if it's day 4/5 or 5/5 then yeah I'd keep shooting the full bets as long as possible.

...and still leaving enough on the last hand to split/double =D.
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How many splits and doubles do you have to leave yourself with that last bet?
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Back in the day when I played BJ I would make sure I had enough to split once, and double both. So 4x my bet. Someone better at math than I am can figure out how many times you would need more. Like splitting 3 times and wanting to double two…. Likely less than 1 in 100,00 deals?

Agreeing with SOOPOO. 3 extra bets per spot sounds and feels right.
Covers most of the insurance, double, split, split-double, split-split, split-double-double, split-split-double, and split-split-split cases at least.

Quote: unJon

Quote: Romes

Quote: Hunterhill

This can be further expanded on . What to do if you are on a trip and running out of money. Do you cut down on your bet sizes and try to grind it out for the remainder of trip? Or should you bet as normal and risk running out of money. I believe Grosjean analyzed this and determined that you should bet as normal and not cut down on bet sizes.
link to original post

It's going to come down to EV really. How small do you have to resize? If you have the funds to replenish on the next trip then I agree the EV is higher to continue betting as though you have your full bankroll. You just might have to also understand that if you do fall short and bust, you're also going to be losing table hours and hands that you could have played at a reduce rate the rest of your trip... so if this is day 2/5, that might be something to consider to resize, whereas if it's day 4/5 or 5/5 then yeah I'd keep shooting the full bets as long as possible.

...and still leaving enough on the last hand to split/double =D.
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How many splits and doubles do you have to leave yourself with that last bet?
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Typically one split and one double, but in my time playing I can say a few times I got down to only having a double down ready. It's not that hard to prepare for your session and avoid this problem.