Just how horrendous would this be?

Quote: etony33

So, there's an old video game that has a little blackjack minigame you can play. The rules are as follows:

-Just you and the dealer, I'm assuming continuous shuffler and 6+ decks
-No double, split, or surrender
- Blackjack is 1:1, dealer doesn't check for blackjack until after you play
-Dealer will always hit if he would otherwise lose! If you have 20 and the dealer has 19, dealer hits.

Basic strategy would be completely different, of course, but does anyone have a basic idea of just how bad the house edge would be? I'm thinking at least 15%.

Quote: unJon

Does blackjack at least beat a dealer 21 of three or more cards?

Quote: etony33

So, there's an old video game that has a little blackjack minigame you can play. The rules are as follows:

-Just you and the dealer, I'm assuming continuous shuffler and 6+ decks
-No double, split, or surrender
- Blackjack is 1:1, dealer doesn't check for blackjack until after you play
-Dealer will always hit if he would otherwise lose! If you have 20 and the dealer has 19, dealer hits.

Basic strategy would be completely different, of course, but does anyone have a basic idea of just how bad the house edge would be? I'm thinking at least 15%.

Quote: charliepatrick

Assuming the dealer has to hit until they reach 17; obviously they will stand on Soft 17 if that wins, else hit. Or perhaps do they hit soft 17 if you also have 17, possibly a similar argument for soft 18 etc. I assumed not (thought I do remember playing Pontoon on a boat where the dealer would hit 3-card s18s, but that was with 5-card tricks.)

Since the value of 18-21 is less than in regular BJ, but the value of standing stiff is the same, it is probably better to stand slightly earlier and pray (this certainly applies to Pontoon where you lose standoffs.)

Quote: etony33

I should have clarified: the dealer just automatically wins if he has under 17 but his hand beats your hand.

Quote: kewlj

I forget what how much BJ paying even money adds to house advantage. It is going to be big though because blackjack paying 6:5 increases house advantage up to 2%, so paying even less @ even money, probably upwards of 4%. I'm sure the answer is on Wizard's site somewhere.

Quote: teliot

Easy to approximate, you are not even close.

Recall that blackjack occurs about 1-in-21 hands.

Paying 6/5 instead of 3/2 reduces the payout from 15/10 to 12/10, or 3/10 of a unit. Therefore the house keeps an extra (3/10)*(1/21) = 3/210 = 0.14286. So, 6/5 increases the house edge by about 1.4%.

If blackjack pays 1/1 instead of 3/2, then you lose 1/2 unit every 21 hands, that is the house keeps an extra (1/2)*(1/21) = 1/42 = 0.02381 units. So, 1/1 increases the house edge by about 2.4%.

These are napkin estimates. For the exact effect you would need to know the number of decks being used. But, these are close enough to be general across the various games.

Quote: kewlj

Yes, these amounts 1.4 and 2.4 increase in house advantage are ON TOP of the roughly .5 house advantage for most game. So upwards of 2% for 6:5, which is what I said. The even money was just a guess. Looks like I was a bit off, maybe 3% total instead of 4%. Either way....I am not playing this game. :/

Quote: kewlj

I forget what how much BJ paying even money adds to house advantage....

Quote: kewlj

Single deck, S17, 3:2. Can I borrow your time machine Eliot?

Um...the OP said 6 deck, by the way.

Quote: etony33

So, there's an old video game that has a little blackjack minigame you can play. The rules are as follows:

-Just you and the dealer, I'm assuming continuous shuffler and 6+ decks
-No double, split, or surrender
- Blackjack is 1:1, dealer doesn't check for blackjack until after you play
-Dealer will always hit if he would otherwise lose! If you have 20 and the dealer has 19, dealer hits.

Basic strategy would be completely different, of course, but does anyone have a basic idea of just how bad the house edge would be? I'm thinking at least 15%.

Quote: gordonm888

I don't think anyone has answered the OP.

Quote: charliepatrick

Sorry before running the simulation I did a very quick infinite deck spreadsheet. I only looked at 2 thru 10 and it suggested
2: Hit 15
3-6: Hit 14
7: Hit 15
8-9: Hit 16
10: Hit 15
I also assumed you hit soft totals as normal. However as I hadn't put much thought or indeed checked my results, I didn't want to imply that these are necessarily correct, but hopefully close enough to get an idea of whether the House Edge is reasonable or horrendous.

If I had had more time I would have run similations by altering the hit cutoffs, but the one run gave a quick estimate (11.6%) of where the game was - i.e. avoid where possible.

I've come across this "14" cutoff on boats' Pontoon, where essentially you have to stand and pray the dealer busts. This low cutoff, and the fact that it applies to (nearly) all the upcards, gives a big clue how bad the game is. (I vaguely remember with no upcard 14 or nearby is a cutoff.)

Quote: gordonm888

I know the game is an absolute rip-off - I am just intellectually interested in game strategy theory.

I wonder what the strategy is vs Ace -given that Dealer does not peek and will hit soft and hard hands until you are beat.

I imagine the only issue with player's soft hands is whether you hit soft 18 and maybe soft 19 vs Ace.

Quote: Gandler

What game is this? (The video game that the blackjack minigame is in).

Quote: etony33

Lunar: The Silver Star for Sega CD.

It's just a little minigame like halfway through the game, and it literally takes place in a den of thieves.

Anyway, this is great. Thank you.

Quote: etony33

...if there is a tie at ANY point, even if the dealer has a soft hand or even if you both have 5, it's a push.

Quote: smoothgrh

Yes, as a vintage game collector, I'd like to know too!

I say that one day I'll record the reel strips for the Atari 2600 slot machine cartridge, but that's super low priority.