Pookky
Pookky
Joined: May 2, 2020
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February 10th, 2021 at 5:02:00 AM permalink
Quote: SOOPOO


Do you bet the same at baccarat? Have they ever bothered you there?



Yes, so far no.

Exception is Golden Nugget.
They sweat the money like no tomorrow.
Tillman Fertitta can go bankrupt for all I care.
I was tapped on the shoulder in the middle of a hot baccarat shoe. Nothing crazy, just a clear pattern of playing the chop.
Was told they would no longer book my action. That I could not play ANY table game. Even the carnival games AND if I played slots, that I wouldnít earn any comps. Oh, and I had thousands of comp dollars and they wiped it out completely and left exactly .01 in there.
Mustíve been someoneís idea of a dig at me.
AxelWolf
AxelWolf
Joined: Oct 10, 2012
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kewlj
February 10th, 2021 at 5:19:18 AM permalink
Quote: Pookky

Yes, so far no.

Exception is Golden Nugget.
They sweat the money like no tomorrow.
Tillman Fertitta can go bankrupt for all I care.
I was tapped on the shoulder in the middle of a hot baccarat shoe. Nothing crazy, just a clear pattern of playing the chop.
Was told they would no longer book my action. That I could not play ANY table game. Even the carnival games AND if I played slots, that I wouldnít earn any comps. Oh, and I had thousands of comp dollars and they wiped it out completely and left exactly .01 in there.
Mustíve been someoneís idea of a dig at me.

If they are going to give you heat for playing a -EV game you should just learn how to AP and get your revenge.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
Pookky
Pookky
Joined: May 2, 2020
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February 10th, 2021 at 5:54:20 AM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

If they are going to give you heat for playing a -EV game you should just learn how to AP and get your revenge.



To give you some background I was playing baccarat because Golden Nugget had already backed me off of playing BJ.
Again, was only flat betting and winning there.
GMan
GMan
Joined: Jan 5, 2013
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odiousgambitkewlj
February 10th, 2021 at 6:47:00 AM permalink
Quote: Pookky

To give you some background I was playing baccarat because Golden Nugget had already backed me off of playing BJ.
Again, was only flat betting and winning there.



If all this story is true and there is no reason to believe the contrary.
You are flat betting $20K at table games and they back you off when you obviously do not show any sign or proof of advantage play...
The only thing I can think of is that they are afraid of the variance you can generate.

Look at it this way, for every 6 players BJ table they can fill, say at $50 min bets and about 60 rounds per hour. With poor players giving the casino say 1% advantage, this table is worth about $50 x 6 players x 60 rounds x 1% = $180/hour minus overhead like pit boss and dealer hourly wage, lights, etc.

Now, your $20K/hand play has a Standard Deviation of $23K or $230K per 100 rounds (say an hour).
If you play them for 9 hours in a weekend with 0.26% disadvantage.
Your expectation is to lose $46,800 with a Standard Deviation of $690,000
If you're only a "little lucky" and end up half a Standard Deviation from the mean to the right... You will win $298,200 of their money.
Not taking their overhead expenses into consideration, they will have to grind that 6 players table at $50 each for just a little over 1650 hours ....or 10 such tables for 165 hours each.
This is WHY they are afraid of you! Someone upstairs with a suit and a tie says "what if this guy wins $500K and never come back?" Five seconds later you can hear the sound of their knees shaking under the table.

This is however "little boss looking for short term results" fallacy. They certainly know they will win in the long run, but they prefer smoother results and good looking clean papers at the end of the week/month. This is the type of place that should just put a smaller max bet sign on their tables. Most joints like to show they are in... when obviously they are a bunch of losers.
Next place you go, just flat bet them for $5K, the comps will almost come at the same rate and they will be happy with the variance...
G Man
DRich
DRich
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odiousgambitpwcrabb
February 10th, 2021 at 7:36:35 AM permalink
Everyone must understand that pit people are not always sharp and many are superstitious. If they see someone betting big and winning they may react. They don't like explaining to their bosses why a shift lost a lot of money. If it happens often they may lose their jobs. They are probably just asking him to leave to lower the variance of losses.

I think people on this forum give way to much credit to casino employees. Very few employees at casinos really understand gambling.
Order from chaos
MDawg
MDawg
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February 10th, 2021 at 8:18:20 AM permalink
First off Pookky, your question itself is meaningless, because in any state that has laws against banning you for counting cards, the casinos may still boot you for most any reason whatsoever. In other words, 86'ing remains alive and well at private establishments so long as it isn't based on some constitutionally protected bias (race, religion, sexual orientation, national origin, etc.).

But otherwise, your thread is rather interesting. Assuming this story is true, nothing has been left out and there is not something else going on (such as suspected money laundering, playing as a front for money launderers, etc.), just send me a PM and I will hook you up with any number of my hosts who will welcome you to play both BJ and Baccarat at table limit flat bets, as long as you like, at the best casinos in Vegas.

In the very early 2000s, when blackjack limits for regular players were 5000 at most Vegas and Tahoe casinos, with some exceptions to 10000, and the table limit at Baccarat was 15000, I knew someone who wanted to play blackjack to 25000 a hand and this major Vegas strip casino let him - so long as he flat bet at 25000 every hand. He lost a lot. Recently, I asked my host at that same casino about this, and he said that "we don't flat bet anyone." I assume he meant that they will 86, but not impose flat betting, and this host is the top guy at that casino, in charge of not just all hosts but all player development, so he would know. The point being that flat betting is viewed as a handicap, and something with which players are penalized.

I am not surprised that the Golden Nugget is player unfriendly - ever since Tim and Tom sold it, it has gone majorly downhill in that respect, but I just can't see anyone being banned from Blackjack or especially from Baccarat for flat betting at table limit, absent some other issue.
I tell you itís wonderful to be here, man. I donít give a damn who wins or loses. Itís just wonderful to be here with you people. https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/betting-systems/33908-the-adventures-of-mdawg/
Marcusclark66
Marcusclark66
Joined: Mar 26, 2020
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February 10th, 2021 at 8:38:32 AM permalink
I have been at numerous Casino properties under the brand I work for and I have never heard of or witnessed any player being banned from baccarat for counting cards or any type of Advantage play. There has been numerous bans at the baccarat table and the baccarat high limit rooms for all kinds of shenanigan, public drunkenness, abuse of other players, people getting in fights, players suspected money laundering, and all kinds of actions related to those type of things. Other table games I'm not going to comment on but that's a whole different story.
Marcus Clark. Real Person; AKA MarcusClark66. *Professional Casino Security Expert. *Certified EMT *Certified Company Firearms Instructor. *Certified Gaming Regulations Interpreter for Corporate Applications. *Domestic UrbanTactical Combat Casualty Expert. *Tic-Tac-Toe Expert (Real Competitive Versions) & Mastering Chess. *Honorary & Official #1 Fan of the MDawg Adventures Club. *Mastering Cracking it. Bit-by-Bit, Piece-by-Piece Crediting Forum Members. *Certified Casino Property Entry & Exit Point Analyzer *Baccarat Winning Session Record: 12 out of 12 & 1 out of 1 Mini Session. Baccarat Losing Session Record: 2 Losing Sessions.
darkoz
darkoz
Joined: Dec 22, 2009
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February 10th, 2021 at 9:41:18 AM permalink
Quote: MDawg

First off Pookky, your question itself is meaningless, because in any state that has laws against banning you for counting cards, the casinos may still boot you for most any reason whatsoever. In other words, 86'ing remains alive and well at private establishments so long as it isn't based on some constitutionally protected bias (race, religion, sexual orientation, national origin, etc.).

But otherwise, your thread is rather interesting. Assuming this story is true, nothing has been left out and there is not something else going on (such as suspected money laundering, playing as a front for money launderers, etc.), just send me a PM and I will hook you up with any number of my hosts who will welcome you to play both BJ and Baccarat at table limit flat bets, as long as you like, at the best casinos in Vegas.

In the very early 2000s, when blackjack limits for regular players were 5000 at most Vegas and Tahoe casinos, with some exceptions to 10000, and the table limit at Baccarat was 15000, I knew someone who wanted to play blackjack to 25000 a hand and this major Vegas strip casino let him - so long as he flat bet at 25000 every hand. He lost a lot. Recently, I asked my host at that same casino about this, and he said that "we don't flat bet anyone." I assume he meant that they will 86, but not impose flat betting, and this host is the top guy at that casino, in charge of not just all hosts but all player development, so he would know. The point being that flat betting is viewed as a handicap, and something with which players are penalized.

I am not surprised that the Golden Nugget is player unfriendly - ever since Tim and Tom sold it, it has gone majorly downhill in that respect, but I just can't see anyone being banned from Blackjack or especially from Baccarat for flat betting at table limit, absent some other issue.



That's simply not true in the state of New Jersey

There must be a solid reason for any banishment from any establishment, not just Casinos. Any establishment open to the public has no right to kick someone out without cause

It's part of the trespassing statutes for the state and has been upheld, notably it's this very statute that is mentioned in Uston. With card counting not against the law or any gambling regulations, trespassing statute forbid Casinos from banning for card counting
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
MDawg
MDawg
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February 10th, 2021 at 10:21:08 AM permalink
I'm not surprised that you don't understand how things work - but private establishments may ban anyone for any reason other than discriminatory ones. No one has a constitutional right to be in a casino. Good luck with trying to argue otherwise.

This is how the New Jersey casinos get around Uston - by simply 86'ing anyone for any non discriminatory reason other than card counting. For example, they may just claim that the player was using some device or helpers. Or some other reason that has nothing to do with card counting.

Plus this Pookky guy obviously isn't counting cards anyway, so how would Uston apply to him? He's flat betting.
I tell you itís wonderful to be here, man. I donít give a damn who wins or loses. Itís just wonderful to be here with you people. https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/betting-systems/33908-the-adventures-of-mdawg/
darkoz
darkoz
Joined: Dec 22, 2009
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February 10th, 2021 at 10:27:29 AM permalink
Quote: MDawg

I'm not surprised that you don't understand how things work - but private establishments may ban anyone for any reason other than discriminatory ones. No one has a constitutional right to be in a casino. Good luck with trying to argue otherwise.

This is how the New Jersey casinos get around Uston - by simply 86'ing anyone for any non discriminatory reason other than card counting.

Plus this Pookky guy obviously isn't counting cards anyway, so how would Uston apply to him? He's flat betting.



I won't hire you as my lawyer, lol.

Statute. N.J.S.A 2C:18-3 section D) 2 says you are 1000% wrong.

D) It is an affirmative defense to (defiant trespass) prosecution...

2: the structure was at the time open to members of the public and the actor complied with all lawful conditions...

To be clear that means if I go into an establishment that is open the the public and I am not breaking any laws I have the right to say they can't trespass me.

I actually have gone through a trespass case in the state of NJ and when a casino security guard actually suggested what you just did, the prosecution even admitted that wasn't going to stand. (My case was dismissed)

So as much as you like to think you know what you are talking about in regards to what I know, you don't
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee

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