Csm tables
December 30th, 2020 at 8:13:29 AM
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I haven't run any simulations or seen any from a source I would trust (i.e. the Wizard), so my opinion that a CSM cannot be counted is based solely on logical conclusions not based on precise math.
Assume that in a six-deck CSM with all the discards ("muck" in the above sited article) placed back in the CSM immediately at the end of every round, the true count at the beginning of each round is zero. You have no knowledge of any previously-used cards when you place your bet - no cards have been shown for this round - they're all in the CSM.
If there is a twelve or sixteen card "buffer" such that you can know for sure that the last twelve or sixteen cards from the previous round are not yet reentered into the shuffle, then whatever the running count is, you must divide that count by six, since you only know about sixteen cards from the entire six-deck shoe. (Technically, divide by 5.692308, since that's the precise number of decks remaining in the CSM after sixteen cards have been shown.
5.692308 is a constant in this play, since the number of cards no longer in play will always be no more than sixteen. Assume that the dealer keeps more than one round out of the CSM and that he then mucks 20 or 30 cards, even 52 cards, and the lowest the divisor is going to get should be no lower than five.
The running count would need to be +20 before the true count would reach even +4. That running count of +20 would need to be reached by counting as few as sixteen cards.
That's the thought experiment that I figure makes counting a CSM a waste of time. Maybe someone can think about it differently and present a scenario which sounds like it makes sense.
Someone else ought to be able to do some simulations that assume a "window" of 12, 16 or 52 cards in a six-deck shoe and present some real math that tells us.
Until that happens, I'm staying away from CSMs.
Assume that in a six-deck CSM with all the discards ("muck" in the above sited article) placed back in the CSM immediately at the end of every round, the true count at the beginning of each round is zero. You have no knowledge of any previously-used cards when you place your bet - no cards have been shown for this round - they're all in the CSM.
If there is a twelve or sixteen card "buffer" such that you can know for sure that the last twelve or sixteen cards from the previous round are not yet reentered into the shuffle, then whatever the running count is, you must divide that count by six, since you only know about sixteen cards from the entire six-deck shoe. (Technically, divide by 5.692308, since that's the precise number of decks remaining in the CSM after sixteen cards have been shown.
5.692308 is a constant in this play, since the number of cards no longer in play will always be no more than sixteen. Assume that the dealer keeps more than one round out of the CSM and that he then mucks 20 or 30 cards, even 52 cards, and the lowest the divisor is going to get should be no lower than five.
The running count would need to be +20 before the true count would reach even +4. That running count of +20 would need to be reached by counting as few as sixteen cards.
That's the thought experiment that I figure makes counting a CSM a waste of time. Maybe someone can think about it differently and present a scenario which sounds like it makes sense.
Someone else ought to be able to do some simulations that assume a "window" of 12, 16 or 52 cards in a six-deck shoe and present some real math that tells us.
Until that happens, I'm staying away from CSMs.
February 4th, 2021 at 2:59:40 PM
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Any csm tables in the states of Nevada ?
April 4th, 2021 at 11:28:08 AM
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How to know if csm are totally random with a fair shuffle ?
I know some casino use non random shuffle to increase house edge and would like to detect those one quickly
I know some casino use non random shuffle to increase house edge and would like to detect those one quickly
April 4th, 2021 at 11:48:18 AM
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Quote: Jean26How to know if csm are totally random with a fair shuffle ?
I know some casino use non random shuffle to increase house edge and would like to detect those one quickly
How would they do a non random shuffle? How do they know how many hands you will be playing or how many players will be at the table?
ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
April 4th, 2021 at 11:55:23 AM
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I know it’s not always random like a shoe.
The latest One2six doesn’t have the same algorithm than the very first one. Most of them but especially the latest ones can reorder the cards in a non random way.
I’m not here to debate weither it is random or not. I have already the proof it is not at some places.
My only question is how to detect quickly the one that don’t offer a random shuffle.
People can reply to me in private if they have infos otherwise I don’t want this post to be debate.
Thank you
The latest One2six doesn’t have the same algorithm than the very first one. Most of them but especially the latest ones can reorder the cards in a non random way.
I’m not here to debate weither it is random or not. I have already the proof it is not at some places.
My only question is how to detect quickly the one that don’t offer a random shuffle.
People can reply to me in private if they have infos otherwise I don’t want this post to be debate.
Thank you
April 4th, 2021 at 11:59:41 AM
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I would look for a repeating sequence of cards. I don't know how long the sequence is but it's at least one deal, maybe many more. I get the feeling someone has figured out how to sequence the cards so the dealer always wins no matter how many players, like the Rubics cube of blackjack.
April 4th, 2021 at 12:02:33 PM
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Quote: Jean26I know it’s not always random like a shoe.
The latest One2six doesn’t have the same algorithm than the very first one. Most of them but especially the latest ones can reorder the cards in a non random way.
I’m not here to debate weither it is random or not. I have already the proof it is not at some places.
My only question is how to detect quickly the one that don’t offer a random shuffle.
People can reply to me in private if they have infos otherwise I don’t want this post to be debate.
Thank you
It's going to be a debate until you provide any proof that it's happening. What country? What casino? Unless there is no regulation, no 3rd party testing (like GLI) and collusion between high level Shufflemaster programmers and Table Games Directors, it's not happening.
ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
April 4th, 2021 at 12:04:17 PM
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Quote: ChumpChangeI would look for a repeating sequence of cards. I don't know how long the sequence is but it's at least one deal, maybe many more. I get the feeling someone has figured out how to sequence the cards so the dealer always wins no matter how many players, like the Rubics cube of blackjack.
Lol. You get the feeling. I love a good funny to start me day. Thank you.
ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
April 4th, 2021 at 12:07:35 PM
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Quote: Zcore13How would they do a non random shuffle? How do they know how many hands you will be playing or how many players will be at the table?
ZCore13
Yes of course! Lets actually think about it, although zcore here doesnt actually want to hear a logical solution to this.
The hard part is knowing which positions these people are at... wait no thats not hard at all. Position one starts when the dealer deals a card they always get the first card right?
Ok so we know position one gets card number one in the shuffled deck of cards, but wait what if the first card that the dealer deals is a card that the dealer is just throwing away? Right because in between dealer changes... huh well i thought about that alot im stumped.
NO no no there has to be a way to do this - zcore just never put any actual thought into it and just trusts his years of knowledge gained from the casino industry.
The way that it could be known - and the way it can be controlled is alot more simpler than anyone will ever think. Shuffle master has a service called "Shuffle Flex" and this service sells individually - pre shuffled - shoes which can be downloaded straight to the shuffler itself. Zcore will most likely tell you that the shufflers arent hooked up to a network because in his bubb.... jurisdiction they dont allow it (at least i dont think they do), but in other jurisdictions they can be hooked up to a network which allows them to connect to shuffle master to download the pre shuffled decks.
Thats only one half - the next half is - how can they control the payout percentages and its very very simple.
Statistics. They run simulations on the shuffled shoes - from the start of every card. And they can do this with up to as many players as they want. They log the stats into a database as well as that shuffle into a database of shuffles. These specific percentages can then be called at will. They dont need to make an algorithm that can beat every player although in my opinion it exists
Oh and the cut of the cards only adds randomness.
This is all based on patents, and could be a bunch of crap. But its alot more simple than creating a rigged algorithm.
April 4th, 2021 at 12:08:49 PM
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Well this you know better than me how is it possible.
I don’t know if it’s legal and if it’s directly One2six who does that but yes few casino at least are not giving a random shuffle.
I was the first to say years ago that One2six is random and are not using the card reader at any time but now I know they do ...
And I don’t trust the One2six machine especially the latest ones.
I’m still trying to figure out how they do that but I’m here to have some help from people who are maybe aware of it.
I don’t know if it’s legal and if it’s directly One2six who does that but yes few casino at least are not giving a random shuffle.
I was the first to say years ago that One2six is random and are not using the card reader at any time but now I know they do ...
And I don’t trust the One2six machine especially the latest ones.
I’m still trying to figure out how they do that but I’m here to have some help from people who are maybe aware of it.
April 4th, 2021 at 12:12:48 PM
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Heatmap, I’m talking about CSM and not ASM. But thank you for your honesty and cooperation
April 4th, 2021 at 12:18:36 PM
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Quote: Jean26One2six
I have plenty to say just dont care to say it tbh - ive spent alot of time watching them
April 4th, 2021 at 12:22:36 PM
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Quote: Jean26Heatmap, I’m talking about CSM and not ASM. But thank you for your honesty and cooperation
me too?
April 4th, 2021 at 12:23:30 PM
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An enhancement to the one2six™ multi-deck continuous shuffler, the one2six Plus™ incorporates optical card recognition technology with continuous shuffling to virtually eliminate card counting and shuffle tracking. Using an optical camera located in the front of the shuffler, the one2six Plus reads each card as it is dealt from the shoe and relays this information to its operating software. And now with its integration to the i-Score Plus, you’ll have even greater flexibility, security, and potential profits for your baccarat games.
https://www.sggaming.com/Games/Shuffle-Master/Shufflers-and-Utilities/Continuous-Shufflers/one2six-Plus-7815
iScore Plus https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0qQ-iaOJvQ
https://www.sggaming.com/Games/Shuffle-Master/Shufflers-and-Utilities/Continuous-Shufflers/one2six-Plus-7815
iScore Plus https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0qQ-iaOJvQ
April 4th, 2021 at 5:30:06 PM
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Small sample size, but just for fun i wrote down the dealer upcards for 17 sessions with 2636 hands in total. (European BJ)
Pretty close to expected.
2 different tables on same casino.
Pretty close to expected.
| Card | total | |
|---|---|---|
| A | 205 | 1,011001517 |
| 10 | 834 | 1,028262519 |
| 9 | 196 | 0,966616085 |
| 8 | 211 | 1,040591806 |
| 7 | 211 | 1,040591806 |
| 6 | 214 | 1,05538695 |
| 5 | 174 | 0,858118361 |
| 4 | 198 | 0,976479514 |
| 3 | 210 | 1,035660091 |
| 2 | 183 | 0,902503794 |
2 different tables on same casino.
April 4th, 2021 at 6:21:16 PM
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CSMs are pretty much at every casino in Las Vegas. Older version of One2Six was vulnerable to sequencing based on how it functioned, watching the machine revealed a lot. The beast mode comments (from fuzzy memory) belonged to a different family of machines that were available in down town Las Vegas - I forget the titles of the thread(s) but they were mentioned on multiple Blackjack or gambling related sites including this one.
There are a new family of CSMs out with a very deep well for the cards ShuffleMaster I Deal Plus, while I haven't watched them work while open at all - given how deep the well is - there is some potential there. I have heard no rumors (yet) involving the new One2Six versions and have remained away from scouting until second dose +14 days... hopefully next month.
A fix to the issue that led to One2Six' vulnerability on BJ and other games - may inadvertently lead to vulnerabilities in other games, especially if you know how they countered the initial exploit.
Either way- a CSM is likely in use in every casino in Las Vegas... specific ones and versions may differ from casino to casino.
There are a new family of CSMs out with a very deep well for the cards ShuffleMaster I Deal Plus, while I haven't watched them work while open at all - given how deep the well is - there is some potential there. I have heard no rumors (yet) involving the new One2Six versions and have remained away from scouting until second dose +14 days... hopefully next month.
A fix to the issue that led to One2Six' vulnerability on BJ and other games - may inadvertently lead to vulnerabilities in other games, especially if you know how they countered the initial exploit.
Either way- a CSM is likely in use in every casino in Las Vegas... specific ones and versions may differ from casino to casino.
April 4th, 2021 at 7:42:15 PM
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Quote: Zcore13and collusion between high level Shufflemaster programmers and Table Games Directors, it's not happening.
Collusion not necessary. They are programed in a way that the manufacturer will avoid any legal responsibility if and when it comes to that. I am not going to get into this debate again, but the technology is there. I have witnessed it first hand when I got my hands on a machine for a several weeks a couple years ago after the "great EC fiasco", in which my calling out 2 newer model ASM, lead to the machines immediately being taken off the floor and killing an AP play for several people.
April 4th, 2021 at 9:04:55 PM
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So nobody has a way to know if we are really playing against a fair One2six ? Let’s say the house edge is supposed to be -0.55%, how could we know we are really playing at this disadvantage and not at -1.5% for exemple ?
Just need a way to detect a fair One2six comparing to those which reorder the cards in a certain way to increase the house edge.
Thank you
Just need a way to detect a fair One2six comparing to those which reorder the cards in a certain way to increase the house edge.
Thank you
April 4th, 2021 at 9:16:31 PM
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We can know if its fair or not by lots of observation and calculating whether the events observed were random or not.
Furthermore, if an event happens more often or less often than random over a large enough sample, that event is likely exploitable.
A particular machine and software version may have a known exploit that can be played to immediately upon finding that machine in the wild (although I know of no software version displayed on the machine itself). Barring prior knowledge, one would need to observe a large enough sample to conclude that whatever event is highly unlikely - then devise a way to take advantage of that information.
Furthermore, if an event happens more often or less often than random over a large enough sample, that event is likely exploitable.
A particular machine and software version may have a known exploit that can be played to immediately upon finding that machine in the wild (although I know of no software version displayed on the machine itself). Barring prior knowledge, one would need to observe a large enough sample to conclude that whatever event is highly unlikely - then devise a way to take advantage of that information.
April 4th, 2021 at 9:18:42 PM
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Quote: Jean26So nobody has a way to know if we are really playing against a fair One2six ? Let’s say the house edge is supposed to be -0.55%, how could we know we are really playing at this disadvantage and not at -1.5% for exemple ?
Just need a way to detect a fair One2six comparing to those which reorder the cards in a certain way to increase the house edge.
Thank you
If you don't trust them, why seek them out?
The older I get, the better I recall things that never happened
April 4th, 2021 at 9:20:13 PM
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Quote: Jean26So nobody has a way to know if we are really playing against a fair One2six ? Let’s say the house edge is supposed to be -0.55%, how could we know we are really playing at this disadvantage and not at -1.5% for exemple ?
Just need a way to detect a fair One2six comparing to those which reorder the cards in a certain way to increase the house edge.
Thank you
If you don't trust them, why seek them out?
The older I get, the better I recall things that never happened
April 4th, 2021 at 9:33:33 PM
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Quote: billryanIf you don't trust them, why seek them out?
I normally play a rotation of 30-35 casinos in Las Vegas and generally about half are ASM. As I have gotten back into play this past week after nearly a 6 month absence, it looks like just under 30 are still available as a few haven't even re-opened yet. But there have been 2 new casinos in that 6 months, one with playable conditions, the other I haven't checked.
I like ASM. Less downtown = more money. And the second, maybe more important thing to me is less down time is less time that someone upstairs may be looking at me and my betting patterns. I want to get into the game, get to my max bet situation and get out all as quickly as possible. ASM help me with that.
Most ASM are utilized fairly, I want to be clear about this. And most casinos would not risk crossing that line. But the technology is there...there is no denying that although some may pretend to, and I have seen it done.
So the bottom line is you have to be vigil. I trust my gut feeling that I can recognize when something isn't right. And I say that after having publicly posted that I thought I was being cheated last summer. Turns out it was just a very bad short-term run playing stakes that were higher than I was used to, No harm in being wrong. Along the lines of what billryan said, if something doesn't feel right, look into it to satisfy yourself or you can just skip that step and move on to a game you are more comfortable with. Too many fish in the sea to play a game you are not comfortable with.
April 5th, 2021 at 2:01:33 AM
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I asked the OP. Not you.
The older I get, the better I recall things that never happened
April 5th, 2021 at 8:20:06 AM
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Quote: billryanIf you don't trust them, why seek them out?
He's 200% convinced he can beat these CSMs.
G Man
April 5th, 2021 at 8:41:48 AM
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Quote: billryanI asked the OP. Not you.
That is pretty rude. Look up what a 'discussion' is.
April 5th, 2021 at 8:49:33 AM
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kewlj, maybe it has to do with the fact that the discussion is about CSM, not ASM like you came up with in your post ?
G Man
April 5th, 2021 at 9:20:49 AM
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Quote: GMankewlj, maybe it has to do with the fact that the discussion is about CSM, not ASM like you came up with in your post ?
I don't think it makes that much difference. The advice is if you are uncomfortable with anything, even a dealer holding cards, then don't play, find a game you are more comfortable with.
April 5th, 2021 at 9:28:23 AM
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Billryan asked why the OP is seeking out CSM. I was waiting for the OP to answer or someone else bring it up, but the answer is pretty obvious to some of us, I suspect you (Gman) and billryan included.
CSM's can be beat, and I am not talking about letting the muck build up to 3/4 deck, essentially making it a very low penetration game. I am talking about something else, that I am not going to go any further about, because that is the arrangement I have when it was shared with me.
Only thing I will say is it is a very tiny advantage, much less, a fraction of traditional card counting and a hell of a lot more work. I suppose that is the OP's interest.
CSM's can be beat, and I am not talking about letting the muck build up to 3/4 deck, essentially making it a very low penetration game. I am talking about something else, that I am not going to go any further about, because that is the arrangement I have when it was shared with me.
Only thing I will say is it is a very tiny advantage, much less, a fraction of traditional card counting and a hell of a lot more work. I suppose that is the OP's interest.
April 5th, 2021 at 10:54:50 AM
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Quote: kewljThat is pretty rude. Look up what a 'discussion' is.
No, it's you spending paragraphs answering a question no one asked you. We all know why we should avoid CSMs. I asked the OP because I'm trying to understand why she is seeking them out. I even quoted her so everyone would see it was a question for her. Do you think we need another longwinded explanation about why pros avoid them.
The older I get, the better I recall things that never happened
April 5th, 2021 at 10:55:26 AM
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Quote: kewljThat is pretty rude. Look up what a 'discussion' is.
No, it's you spending paragraphs answering a question no one asked you. We all know why we should avoid CSMs. I asked the OP because I'm trying to understand why she is seeking them out. I even quoted her so everyone would see it was a question for her. Do you think we need another longwinded explanation about why pros avoid them.
The older I get, the better I recall things that never happened
April 5th, 2021 at 4:03:16 PM
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One2six is using the card reader inside to make the shuffle non random in some places in the world and we have to stop them.
If anybody has consistent idea to make them stop it would be great.
I was the first telling to everybody that they are not using the card reader and it’s totally random. You have to trust me
If anybody has consistent idea to make them stop it would be great.
I was the first telling to everybody that they are not using the card reader and it’s totally random. You have to trust me
April 5th, 2021 at 4:12:43 PM
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Quote: Jean26One2six is using the card reader inside to make the shuffle non random in some places in the world and we have to stop them.
If anybody has consistent idea to make them stop it would be great.
I was the first telling to everybody that they are not using the card reader and it’s totally random. You have to trust me
I'll be honest, I haven't heard this about CSM, only ASM. Wouldn't surprise me as again, THE TECHNOLOGY IS AVAILABLE and casinos and the casino industry are greedy. That is a bad combination for us players. They are just never satisfied with a fair advantage. They are always looking to stretch it to more.
April 5th, 2021 at 4:28:52 PM
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Yes but if we prove that the machine can read the cards they will have to stop that or remove their csm with shoe games
April 5th, 2021 at 6:11:25 PM
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How do you intend to prove a non random shuffle? The ability to read the card values by the machine/shoe is not illegal, altering the randomness of the game is.
Much easier to abuse the information. Simple scenario - but imagine a machine intentionally clumped 20 high value cards that created a ton of pushes on 19, 20, & 21s, suddenly a multitude of widely available side bets begin to look delicious.
Much easier to abuse the information. Simple scenario - but imagine a machine intentionally clumped 20 high value cards that created a ton of pushes on 19, 20, & 21s, suddenly a multitude of widely available side bets begin to look delicious.
April 7th, 2021 at 2:16:06 AM
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Quote: Jean26Yes but if we prove that the machine can read the cards they will have to stop that or remove their csm with shoe games
What you are basically saying is that a proper table game should not make use of any OCR technology that technically can lead to a specific card sequence.
I agree, as one may then as well play blackjack on a slot machine.
April 7th, 2021 at 6:43:17 AM
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Quote: acwWhat you are basically saying is that a proper table game should not make use of any OCR technology that technically can lead to a specific card sequence.
I agree, as one may then as well play blackjack on a slot machine.
they could play online on an evolution table they dont use ASM/CSM at least not anywhere ive ever seen
May 13th, 2024 at 11:40:03 AM
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Still nobody to explain me a way to check if the shuffle is fair and I’m playing a game with HE of 0.5 and not 1.5 or even worse ?
May 13th, 2024 at 12:03:16 PM
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Quote: Jean26Still nobody to explain me a way to check if the shuffle is fair and I’m playing a game with HE of 0.5 and not 1.5 or even worse ?
link to original post
If it wasn't, how would the shuffler know how many people are playing or if players will play perfect strategy to make "good cards" go to the dealer?
ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
May 13th, 2024 at 12:07:10 PM
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I know you work for casino in the us and I don’t care about your opinion. If you keep talking about the number of seat open on the table you are far from understanding how blackjack works.
Casino can make a shuffle that increase the house edge no matter how many boxes will be open it’s not complicated to imagine.
You are talking like those fish who think they can beat the bank if they have a good team at the table and all does the right move.
You don’t have to participate at this post.
Casino can make a shuffle that increase the house edge no matter how many boxes will be open it’s not complicated to imagine.
You are talking like those fish who think they can beat the bank if they have a good team at the table and all does the right move.
You don’t have to participate at this post.
May 13th, 2024 at 12:25:59 PM
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Quote: Jean26I know you work for casino in the us and I don’t care about your opinion. If you keep talking about the number of seat open on the table you are far from understanding how blackjack works.
Casino can make a shuffle that increase the house edge no matter how many boxes will be open it’s not complicated to imagine.
You are talking like those fish who think they can beat the bank if they have a good team at the table and all does the right move.
You don’t have to participate at this post.
link to original post
You are wrong. Doesn't happen. You should not be gambling. As a matter of fact, I now forbid you to gamble and give your money away.
ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
May 13th, 2024 at 1:53:43 PM
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It seems to be easy to lose 25% of your total bet for short stretches of a hundred hands or so. Losing 0.5% would be a wish at that point.
I'm kind of stunned my local casinos still do hand shuffles for BJ. They use machines for other games like MS Stud and the like.
I'm kind of stunned my local casinos still do hand shuffles for BJ. They use machines for other games like MS Stud and the like.
May 13th, 2024 at 7:45:01 PM
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Quote: Jean26I know you work for casino in the us and I don’t care about your opinion. If you keep talking about the number of seat open on the table you are far from understanding how blackjack works.
Casino can make a shuffle that increase the house edge no matter how many boxes will be open it’s not complicated to imagine.
You are talking like those fish who think they can beat the bank if they have a good team at the table and all does the right move.
You don’t have to participate at this post.
link to original post
This is so funny. These boards are full of people who are afraid of being cheated, afraid of W-2Gs and the IRS, and afraid of losing streaks. The have no chance of being a successful AP gambler.
Casino cheating happens, but it is so rare as to be totally unimportant to most APs operating in reputable casinos. Are you still afraid of monsters under your bed?
Gambling is a math contest where the score is tracked in dollars. Try not to get a negative score.
May 16th, 2024 at 2:54:29 PM
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It’s also so funny when people talk without really knowing who they are talking to and also they have no idea of cheating because they don’t make thousands of hours around the world.
As I said , don’t participate if you don’t help this post
As I said , don’t participate if you don’t help this post
May 16th, 2024 at 3:08:27 PM
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Quote: Jean26It’s also so funny when people talk without really knowing who they are talking to and also they have no idea of cheating because they don’t make thousands of hours around the world.
As I said , don’t participate if you don’t help this post
link to original post
I helped. I called BS. That's what people need to know.
ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
