Csm tables
December 22nd, 2020 at 4:19:13 AM
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Hi,
I’m looking for csm tables in casinos all over th us.
If someone could help me to find those, bj21 doesn’t include those games anymore.
Thank you very much for your help
I’m looking for csm tables in casinos all over th us.
If someone could help me to find those, bj21 doesn’t include those games anymore.
Thank you very much for your help
December 22nd, 2020 at 4:40:02 AM
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Welcome to the forum. I can't help you as I'm not in the US, but it might help if you say whereabouts in the US you are primarily interested in.
December 22nd, 2020 at 4:48:39 AM
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Anywhere
December 22nd, 2020 at 5:20:58 AM
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Quote: Jean26Hi,
I’m looking for csm tables in casinos all over th us.
If someone could help me to find those, bj21 doesn’t include those games anymore.
Thank you very much for your help
Welcome! Why might you be interested in finding the CSM dealt games? Most players on here would be interested.... but mainly to AVOID them?
December 22nd, 2020 at 7:12:19 AM
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Quote: SOOPOOWelcome! Why might you be interested in finding the CSM dealt games? Most players on here would be interested.... but mainly to AVOID them?
I thinkonly card counters would want to avoid them. CSM is actually good for the basic strategy player.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
December 22nd, 2020 at 1:02:27 PM
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Tell us more OP - tell us why you want CSM or what about ASM?
My mind is racing like crazy as to who told you what about CSMs
There has to be someone who told OP that they are beatable in some way imo
My mind is racing like crazy as to who told you what about CSMs
There has to be someone who told OP that they are beatable in some way imo
December 22nd, 2020 at 1:24:26 PM
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I just like to play csm and they are so rare in the us...
It would be great if every people who know some casinos offering those games could just post it or write me in private in they prefer.
Thank you for all your replies :)
It would be great if every people who know some casinos offering those games could just post it or write me in private in they prefer.
Thank you for all your replies :)
December 22nd, 2020 at 1:30:45 PM
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I know of some CSM machines at the Horseshoe in Hammond, IN. They also have shoe games
A flute with no holes is not a flute, a donut with no holes is a danish
December 22nd, 2020 at 4:30:33 PM
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Quote: Gabes22I know of some CSM machines at the Horseshoe in Hammond, IN. They also have shoe games
I’ve refrained from replying up until this point but I Feel as if the list of casinos that do not have CSM or ASM is smaller than the list that does not have them I’m very confused
December 22nd, 2020 at 4:40:28 PM
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The OP is sure as hell he can beat these machines...
LOL LOL LOL
LOL LOL LOL
G Man
December 22nd, 2020 at 4:43:15 PM
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Quote: heatmapI’ve refrained from replying up until this point but I Feel as if the list of casinos that do not have CSM or ASM is smaller than the list that does not have them I’m very confused
No you haven't. You replied 3 hours ago.
ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
December 22nd, 2020 at 5:11:55 PM
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Quote: Zcore13No you haven't. You replied 3 hours ago.
ZCore13
Yeah but it’s not my normal rhetoric... but sure you are correct if we’re talking about these things now. I’m just surprised you’ve held off for so long replying to my bull. I’ve missed the banter even if it was only in my mind.
December 22nd, 2020 at 5:13:58 PM
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OP mentioned nothing whatsoever about ASM’s though. Entirely unrelated topic and increases number of casinos using them exponentially:
December 22nd, 2020 at 9:18:43 PM
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Quote: GManThe OP is sure as hell he can beat these machines...
LOL LOL LOL
You laugh but we've seen people beat every game in a casino with one clever exploit or another.
December 23rd, 2020 at 4:53:47 AM
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Pardon my ignorance.
I know CSM is continuous shuffling machine.
What’s ASM? Automatic shuffling machine? And how does it differ from CSM?
I know CSM is continuous shuffling machine.
What’s ASM? Automatic shuffling machine? And how does it differ from CSM?
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ —————————————————————————————————————
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
December 23rd, 2020 at 5:13:55 AM
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Quote: DJTeddyBearPardon my ignorance.
I know CSM is continuous shuffling machine.
What’s ASM? Automatic shuffling machine? And how does it differ from CSM?
Yes, ASM stands for automatic shuffle machine. This video describes how it differs from a CSM.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xNFdJop1T6M
December 23rd, 2020 at 6:13:34 AM
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Quote: DJTeddyBearPardon my ignorance.
I know CSM is continuous shuffling machine.
What’s ASM? Automatic shuffling machine? And how does it differ from CSM?
ASMs - Probabilities are constantly changing because the cards are transferred to a shoe and is static
CSM - Probabilities remain constant because the last used cards are going back into the "shoe" of cards and being used immediately
December 23rd, 2020 at 6:18:10 AM
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Quote: WTflushYou laugh but we've seen people beat every game in a casino with one clever exploit or another.
I laugh and will again cause I had PMs with this poster and the way he thinks he can beat them is ... laughable!
G Man
December 23rd, 2020 at 9:33:23 AM
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please do tell lolQuote: GManI laugh and will again cause I had PMs with this poster and the way he thinks he can beat them is ... laughable!
December 23rd, 2020 at 10:55:08 AM
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Quote: WTflushplease do tell lol
I am a believer that ASMs can be beat in a short term period, But not the CSMs imo.
December 23rd, 2020 at 10:55:09 AM
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duplicate
December 23rd, 2020 at 11:06:27 AM
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What is short term and why?
When a rock is thrown into a pack of dogs, the one that yells the loudest is the one who got hit.
December 23rd, 2020 at 1:45:46 PM
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Gman, I have respect for you cause I know you are a good blackjack player and willing to share your knowledge to many people.
I don’t expect to be insulted especially when people like you can be wrong sometime.
I’m asking here nicely a simple question and some people have answered me and I thank them. For the others who are not into my subject maybe you could just post somewhere else.
Thank you
I don’t expect to be insulted especially when people like you can be wrong sometime.
I’m asking here nicely a simple question and some people have answered me and I thank them. For the others who are not into my subject maybe you could just post somewhere else.
Thank you
December 23rd, 2020 at 1:49:23 PM
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Also I have never discussed about any strategies with you in private Gman.
December 23rd, 2020 at 2:46:34 PM
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I guess I should have worded my question differently. Yeah, I’ve seen them. Seen both actually.Quote: GreasyjohnYes, ASM stands for automatic shuffle machine. This video describes how it differs from a CSM.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xNFdJop1T6M
For those of you that also don’t know what an ASM is, but don’t wanna watch the video, the ASM is simply a shuffler that will shuffle six decks of cards while a different six stacks is in play.
I really thought you were talking about something that might be new to the industry, that I never saw.
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ —————————————————————————————————————
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
December 23rd, 2020 at 6:36:51 PM
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Quote: Jean26Hi,
I’m looking for csm tables in casinos all over th us.
If someone could help me to find those, bj21 doesn’t include those games anymore.
Thank you very much for your help
It looks like someone else has hacked the shuffler.
December 24th, 2020 at 8:56:05 AM
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Quote: heatmapI am a believer that ASMs can be beat in a short term period, But not the CSMs imo.
ASMs simply take the place of manual shuffles by the dealer. The idea is to reduce downtime from shuffling by hand.
A CSM - Constantly reshuffles the deck. Discards are placed back into the deck all the time, so it's as if you are playing from a fresh deck after every hand. If you are playing from a CSM, the running count at the beginning of every round is 0, so the house edge, whatever it is otherwise, is constant.
In a game with an ASM, the running count will vary just as it would in a manually shuffled game.
As to the original post, CSM games are proliferating everywhere. My experience is that low-limit games will more often be dealt with CSMs, and that higher level games will use ASMs or be manually shuffled, and usually at the same casino.
December 24th, 2020 at 10:38:21 AM
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Quote: WTflushplease do tell lol
I have never or ever will post things that were discussed in PMs.
I will let the OP explain it to you if he feels so.
G Man
December 24th, 2020 at 11:32:46 AM
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I don't believe CSMs are good for average or casual players. Every hand a casual player participates in has a house edge. Removing the downtime for shuffling increases the hands played. Over a long weekend, those extra hands can add an extra session to the amount of play.
I know people who claim they can beat CSMs but then again, we know people who claim they can beat just about any game.
I know people who claim they can beat CSMs but then again, we know people who claim they can beat just about any game.
The older I get, the better I recall things that never happened
December 24th, 2020 at 2:00:14 PM
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Any other helps for casinos with csm ?
Thank you
Thank you
December 24th, 2020 at 2:36:59 PM
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I don't remember where I saw it, but I once read that CSMs can be counted. Of course, the guy who wrote it might have been talking out of his ass. Be that as it may...
Consider the dealer procedure:
1 - He gets a stack of cards that are enough for several hands, depending on the number of players.
2 - When he is getting low on cards, he puts the discards in the shuffler, and takes a new stack out, placing them under the remaining cards in his hand.
There simply isn't enough time for those discards to be shuffled in before getting the new stack.
Furthermore, depending on the shuffler's design, the discards added might be shuffled in a manner where they are unlikely to come out the next time the dealer gets more cards.
So, considering all this, you keep 2 or maybe 3 different counts, that all go up or down together. You base your actions on the oldest count, then discard that count, and start using the next count, when the dealer gets more cards.
Does that make sense?
Consider the dealer procedure:
1 - He gets a stack of cards that are enough for several hands, depending on the number of players.
2 - When he is getting low on cards, he puts the discards in the shuffler, and takes a new stack out, placing them under the remaining cards in his hand.
There simply isn't enough time for those discards to be shuffled in before getting the new stack.
Furthermore, depending on the shuffler's design, the discards added might be shuffled in a manner where they are unlikely to come out the next time the dealer gets more cards.
So, considering all this, you keep 2 or maybe 3 different counts, that all go up or down together. You base your actions on the oldest count, then discard that count, and start using the next count, when the dealer gets more cards.
Does that make sense?
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ —————————————————————————————————————
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
December 24th, 2020 at 2:39:08 PM
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Quote: billryanI know people who claim they can beat CSMs but then again, we know people who claim they can beat just about any game.
Claims aside...
Except for a slight advantage (or, just as likely, disadvantage) that would accrue until the used cards are placed back in the CSM, every round starts with a full compliment of cards - a running count of zero. If the cards are held back for a couple of rounds then the running count might vary from zero, but never so much that the true count would be effected greatly. Remember - the CSM is not continually shuffling even just two decks. More likely six or eight. At the beginning of a six or eight deck shoe being dealt by hand, there is no advantage. With a CSM every round essentially begins with a complete deck.
December 25th, 2020 at 8:33:20 AM
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Would you prefer to play 3:2 BJ at a CSM table or 6:5 BJ at an ASM table? I'm thinking you still want 3:2 BJ.
December 25th, 2020 at 9:05:06 AM
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Quote: ChumpChangeWould you prefer to play 3:2 BJ at a CSM table or 6:5 BJ at an ASM table? I'm thinking you still want 3:2 BJ.
Yes 3/2 of course.
Any casinos ?
December 25th, 2020 at 10:55:51 AM
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I don't know what website keeps an up to date list of casinos that use CSM's and whether the CSM's disappeared when the plague came.
You will likely find them in the low limit and/or 6:5 BJ areas of the casino.
My local casino uses an ASM which I have no gripe with, yet.
There could be the lucky player who goes from a $300 buy-in to over $10K on a CSM, but that'd be the exception. Regular players notice it makes bad days worse, and good days not as good.
You will likely find them in the low limit and/or 6:5 BJ areas of the casino.
My local casino uses an ASM which I have no gripe with, yet.
There could be the lucky player who goes from a $300 buy-in to over $10K on a CSM, but that'd be the exception. Regular players notice it makes bad days worse, and good days not as good.
December 25th, 2020 at 11:03:31 AM
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I would estimate we have 12 CSM's out of our 51 tables at Talking Stick Resort and 12 out of 40 at Casino Arizona, in Scottsdale. But we are also at 50% table use right now and 4 spots per table.
ZCore13
ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
December 26th, 2020 at 1:59:34 AM
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Just how much shuffling do ASM’s do? I’ve always wondered if there was clumping with these machines. I can’t imagine the shuffle is that great.
December 26th, 2020 at 3:40:57 AM
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They'll have to reset the shufflers to 4 players instead of 7 players. Maybe they could try 4 deck shoes again.
December 26th, 2020 at 7:59:21 AM
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Quote: ChumpChangeThey'll have to reset the shufflers to 4 players instead of 7 players. Maybe they could try 4 deck shoes again.
Nah. When I set it to Beast Mode it automatically senses how many players there are, how many hands each player is playing, if they hit or stay on 16, if they double correctly and when someone joins or leaves the table.
ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
December 26th, 2020 at 9:40:17 AM
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Quote: ChumpChange
They'll have to reset the shufflers to 4 players instead of 7 players. Maybe they could try 4 deck shoes again.
Quote: Zcore13Nah. When I set it to Beast Mode it automatically senses how many players there are, how many hands each player is playing, if they hit or stay on 16, if they double correctly and when someone joins or leaves the table.
Oh no. Here we go again. I thought we had this discussion three or four times already.
December 26th, 2020 at 9:57:07 AM
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Quote: fantomOh no. Here we go again. I thought we had this discussion three or four times already.
In the 7 days you've been a member? Hmmmm
ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
December 26th, 2020 at 10:02:02 AM
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Quote: Zcore13Nah. When I set it to Beast Mode it automatically senses how many players there are, how many hands each player is playing, if they hit or stay on 16, if they double correctly and when someone joins or leaves the table.
ZCore13
As a rule, Beast Mode is only employed on Holiday Weekends and on days leading up to the full moon, no?
The older I get, the better I recall things that never happened
December 26th, 2020 at 10:41:06 AM
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Quote: WABJ11Just how much shuffling do ASM’s do? I’ve always wondered if there was clumping with these machines. I can’t imagine the shuffle is that great.
even in normal "random" patterns "clumping" can exist nor am i sure how it became an issue
i think the issue that people may have with clumping is if everyone at the table gets a 20 and then the dealer gets a 20 as well or something like that
the shufflers - apparently - ensures that EVERY shuffle is EQUALLY as possible.
how they ensure that (THIS IS MY SPECULATION) is possibly with the support of a database within each shuffler that keeps a count of which shuffles have been performed and when a duplicate shuffle is chosen it simply generates another shuffle until it finds one that hasnt been used - then actually shuffle the physical deck of cards
December 26th, 2020 at 11:24:27 AM
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Just brainstorming.
What if the CSM programmer made a backdoor. That he only knows. A predictable pattern in the shuffle.
What if the CSM programmer made a backdoor. That he only knows. A predictable pattern in the shuffle.
Pray for protection from enemies and witchcraft.
December 26th, 2020 at 11:37:34 AM
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Quote: jjjooogggJust brainstorming.
What if the CSM programmer made a backdoor. That he only knows. A predictable pattern in the shuffle.
The Back door is usually the Ethernet connection which - should be by agreement between casinos and the gaming control boards - not ever be connected while in operation. (From Washington states agreement I’m pretty sure)
I am not sure if these shufflers are WiFi connected, but I do know there is something called shuffle flex which allows the casino to buy per shuffle. I THINK The shuffled deck is then downloaded from a server owned by shuffle master. To me though, the only way that’s possible is to have a cellular card in it that connects to the internet and that’s a back door.
edit
they also dont need to do this because of pre shuffled decks
Last edited by: heatmap on Dec 26, 2020
December 27th, 2020 at 7:59:08 AM
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There's an important distinction between ASMs and CSMs.
CSMs are Continuously shuffling the deck - as cards are used, they are put back into the deck and the machine shuffles them in with the other cards. The sequence of cards in an CSM is ever-changing. Whatever you want to call 'clumping', it's not happening in an CSM-shuffled deck.
ASMs usually are shuffling one deck while a second deck is being used. Once an ASM deck is put into use the sequence of cards in that deck doesn't change. Again, whatever "clumping' is, if it happens in an ASM-shuffled deck, it's going to be present until the deck is exhausted or the 'clump' is dealt.
And to keep the discussion moving towards its eventual climax...
'Clumping' is exactly what card counting seeks to exploit. A positive count - actually any count that is not zero - occurs when more than the average or expected number of high or low cards have been exposed. An extremely high count means that a disproportionate number of low cards have been played. It means that a 'clump' of 2-6 valued cards have just passed by. More ten-value cards are probably coming.
Since a count of zero predicts, mathematically, that the house advantage will remain constant over time, a guaranteed benefit accrues to the house if the deck can be manipulated such that the count does not vary from zero, or from zero as little as possible.
That's the whole point of a CSM. If a lot of low-value cards come out, before that advantage to the card counter can be exploited, those cards - the 'clump' - is put back into the CSM and those cards are put back in play.
To the extent that the software can be manipulated such that cards are placed in the deck in any non-random sequence, the casino would benefit more if there are no clumps. Then the casino could just sit back and allow the inherent advantage to the house that exists in the rules work to their benefit.
There's no reason to 'clump' cards other than greediness. The game is 'rigged' such that the rules are in favor of the house at the outset. All the casino has to do is sit back and wait. The math will do the job for them, without any need to resort to 'cheating.'
CSMs are Continuously shuffling the deck - as cards are used, they are put back into the deck and the machine shuffles them in with the other cards. The sequence of cards in an CSM is ever-changing. Whatever you want to call 'clumping', it's not happening in an CSM-shuffled deck.
ASMs usually are shuffling one deck while a second deck is being used. Once an ASM deck is put into use the sequence of cards in that deck doesn't change. Again, whatever "clumping' is, if it happens in an ASM-shuffled deck, it's going to be present until the deck is exhausted or the 'clump' is dealt.
And to keep the discussion moving towards its eventual climax...
'Clumping' is exactly what card counting seeks to exploit. A positive count - actually any count that is not zero - occurs when more than the average or expected number of high or low cards have been exposed. An extremely high count means that a disproportionate number of low cards have been played. It means that a 'clump' of 2-6 valued cards have just passed by. More ten-value cards are probably coming.
Since a count of zero predicts, mathematically, that the house advantage will remain constant over time, a guaranteed benefit accrues to the house if the deck can be manipulated such that the count does not vary from zero, or from zero as little as possible.
That's the whole point of a CSM. If a lot of low-value cards come out, before that advantage to the card counter can be exploited, those cards - the 'clump' - is put back into the CSM and those cards are put back in play.
To the extent that the software can be manipulated such that cards are placed in the deck in any non-random sequence, the casino would benefit more if there are no clumps. Then the casino could just sit back and allow the inherent advantage to the house that exists in the rules work to their benefit.
There's no reason to 'clump' cards other than greediness. The game is 'rigged' such that the rules are in favor of the house at the outset. All the casino has to do is sit back and wait. The math will do the job for them, without any need to resort to 'cheating.'
December 27th, 2020 at 9:20:48 AM
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With an ASM all the cards get put into a shoe. I've never seen a CSM in use, but maybe clumps of cards get stuck in there far too long.
December 27th, 2020 at 3:48:22 PM
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I’m talking about “clumping” when they put 6 decks into the ASM to shuffle. How good is the shuffle on an ASM? NOT CSM.
December 30th, 2020 at 7:00:21 AM
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This describes the countability of csm.
https://discountgambling.net/2012/07/27/counting-csm-blackjack-ev/
https://discountgambling.net/2012/07/27/counting-csm-blackjack-ev/
December 30th, 2020 at 7:20:45 AM
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Quote: vulnerableThis describes the countability of csm.
/2012/07/27/counting-csm-blackjack-ev/
I’ve seen this article. It’s something to ponder. But in my blackjack quest of being added to OSN I ultimately concluded CSM’s cannot be beaten counting.
