Rules in Blackjack

Hi, I'm new to AP in blackjack and have a decent bankroll, but to be honest to start out I'm not overly concerned with RoR to start out. I've read a lot about how rules affect the game and can seriously impact your EV as a card counter. I know not to play 6:5 obviously, no side bets, little/no cover play, etc. But whenever I read about APs playing blackjack they're using bet spreads of $5 to $200-300, and better rules.

My local casino has 3:2, 8 deck, H17 with TWENTY FIVE dollar table min at the best case scenario. This is fine, its not great, but my question is it worth it at that point to just go to the high limit tables with 2-4 deck (depends on the day/how busy they are), 3:2. S17, 100$ minimums, or am I still going to be losing EV that way since my minimum bets will be a lot higher?

Also, for future reference, is there a way to simulate these rules myself without having to buy expensive bankroll/EV calculation software?

EDIT: Pen at $25 table is ~70%, high limit is roughly 75-80%.

Hard to respond without knowing PEN.

25$ tables its around 70% pen, high limits its a bit higher at around 75-80%

Quote: Cardtographer12

Hi, I'm new to AP in blackjack and have a decent bankroll, but to be honest to start out I'm not overly concerned with RoR to start out. I've read a lot about how rules affect the game and can seriously impact your EV as a card counter. I know not to play 6:5 obviously, no side bets, little/no cover play, etc. But whenever I read about APs playing blackjack they're using bet spreads of $5 to $200-300, and better rules.

My local casino has 3:2, 8 deck, H17 with TWENTY FIVE dollar table min at the best case scenario. This is fine, its not great, but my question is it worth it at that point to just go to the high limit tables with 2-4 deck (depends on the day/how busy they are), 3:2. S17, 100$ minimums, or am I still going to be losing EV that way since my minimum bets will be a lot higher?

Also, for future reference, is there a way to simulate these rules myself without having to buy expensive bankroll/EV calculation software?

EDIT: Pen at $25 table is ~70%, high limit is roughly 75-80%.

Welcome to the forum! So to jump right in, 8D H17 is a terrible game even with decent pen, for many reasons I would strongly advise against playing this game (especially at $25 min). I'm aware that's probably not what you want to hear, I too started out playing 8D H17 games. Unfortunately most aspiring card counters typically have to either travel or relocate if they wish to beat blackjack for any significant amount of money. I would be happy to run some simulations for you, but trust me when I say investing in software such as CVCX is well worth it. If you would like to get a basic grasp in general of what kind of EV different games, systems, and bet spreads generate I recommend visiting Blackjack Apprenticeship website. You can find a ton of useful information for free.

Hope this helps!
- Omega

I wouldn't even consider playing 8D with a $25 min. If they have double deck in HL with great pen that's obviously a good game but at $100 min. you better be starting with a six figure bankroll. Go check out different casinos, traveling comes with the territory counting cards. I personally would stick to double deck games until you are well practiced in keeping the running count in a live casino environment. Definitely buy cvcx first, I think it's $100? One mistake counting costs you more than that.

Ok, thanks for the advice! What would your thoughts be then on high limit tables in my case? Still not really worth it? Or ok? The rules seem a lot more favorable, with 2-4 decks, better pen, and S17. The only caveat obviously is the 100$ mins. I dont know if its worth shopping around for other casinos though because the next closest is over 2 hours further away and I dont know what rules they have in place there either.

Quote: Cardtographer12

Ok, thanks for the advice! What would your thoughts be then on high limit tables in my case? Still not really worth it? Or ok? The rules seem a lot more favorable, with 2-4 decks, better pen, and S17. The only caveat obviously is the 100$ mins. I dont know if its worth shopping around for other casinos though because the next closest is over 2 hours further away and I dont know what rules they have in place there either.

You're quite welcome! The 2D S17 games with 70% pen are among the best blackjack games you can find these days, however at $100 min that would take quite the bankroll. Assuming perfect play with IL18 and a spread of 1-5 or better, you're looking at $100k to be on the safe side. Of course you can go with less, but it's risky!

I think there are a few other facts the audience will need to know before giving better answers.

1. If you get backed off from this casino do you have other options?
2. Are you trying to do this for a living, or to supplement a regular job?
3. If you lose your ‘bankroll’, do you have the ability to get a new one?
4. What spread will your casino tolerate at the $25 game? At the $100 game?

Welcome to the forum and good luck!

1. Next closest casino is another two hours further away, so ideally i would not want to get backed off.
2. Supplement.
3. Yes, easily.
4. 1:20 at 25$ table, can do more but it would probably bring on too much heat, probably only 1:8 at the 100$ game.

Quote: Cardtographer12

1. Next closest casino is another two hours further away, so ideally i would not want to get backed off.
2. Supplement.
3. Yes, easily.
4. 1:20 at 25$ table, can do more but it would probably bring on too much heat, probably only 1:8 at the 100$ game.

If you are playing a winning game, especially at those stakes and spreads you will be backed off in no time (likely within minutes or a couple hours) and have to move along to the next casino anyway. Might as well start somewhere with lower limits and see how it goes before you commit that much money to it. Do you have at least $100,000 you are willing to risk? I'm assuming not if you don't want to spend $95 for software.

Quote: WTflush

If you are playing a winning game, especially at those stakes and spreads you will be backed off in no time (likely within minutes or a couple hours) and have to move along to the next casino anyway. Might as well start somewhere with lower limits and see how it goes before you commit that much money to it. Do you have at least $100,000 you are willing to risk? I'm assuming not if you don't want to spend $95 for software.

Yeah, sadly not a $100k, only around $30k I'm working with here. The problem is I don't really have any other options since I live in New England and there are very few casinos in the area, so there are very few options I can work with. I've never seen a a table lower than 25$ mins with 3:2 over here, so lower limits isn't really an option unfortunately.

I'd only be flat betting $30 with a $30K bankroll. Maybe run a progression when I'm ahead.

Don't listen to anything this guy ^ says if you're interested in playing with an advantage.

Lose a hundred hands and tell me how to get back to even.

Quote: ChumpChange

Lose a hundred hands and tell me how to get back to even.

Play with an advantage not some whacky betting system?

Counting cards is a whacky betting system, and the pit bosses are whacking.

Quote: Cardtographer12

Yeah, sadly not a $100k, only around $30k I'm working with here. The problem is I don't really have any other options since I live in New England and there are very few casinos in the area, so there are very few options I can work with. I've never seen a a table lower than 25$ mins with 3:2 over here, so lower limits isn't really an option unfortunately.

If you are unwilling or unable to travel for your play, then I think the only option would be to play the 2D S17 game using a 1-5 spread. I only say this because you mentioned that you could replenish your bankroll easily and it's important for you to know that with only $30k your risk would be extremely high, around 45% (that's using Hi-Lo, perfect play, IL18). You could very easily lose that money. Also, using a 1-5 spread against a HL 2D game is probably as big as you want to go if you are concerned with being backed off, though many players have been backed off even with this small of a spread.

I cant stress this enough, I strongly recommend purchasing software, perfecting your play, and even purchasing a few books before attempting to play blackjack at this level. Good luck to you and please let us know if you have anymore questions!