heatmap
heatmap
Joined: Feb 12, 2018
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July 21st, 2020 at 10:47:59 AM permalink
Quote: theOmega623

Quote: heatmap

like i said embed the camera in your clothing. There are plenty of hidden cameras on amazon that will suffice tbh and they sell ones that look like buttons on clothing. And the expensive cameras that are for security purposes, are like 1000 times the price PER camera that you could buy on amazon, and if one breaks its so much cheaper. Youll end up with broken ones that you have parts from others to fix with.

The only thing about the amazon ones are quality of picture. So you said that you need to simply just review what happens, so quality shouldnt be that much of a priority, because usually when you want to go SMALL you have to sacrifice quality of the image.



The smallest cheapest spy camera censors of the cameras on amazon are max .5in x .5in x .5in - which is actually kind of big



Thanks heatmap! I think using an embedded cam is a great idea!



just remember that the one i showed you is a computer
AlanMendelson
AlanMendelson
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July 21st, 2020 at 11:58:44 AM permalink
Quote: heatmap

Do tribal law take precedence over state and federal law? Or is it Federal -> state & tribal



It depends on the law and if there's a crime or a lawsuit.
On this I suggest going to a lawyer who knows.

I will say this... tribal casinos can be sued in federal court and they can be held accountablle in state courts because of their compacts. They are not above the law with all that "sovereign nation" stuff.
theOmega623
theOmega623
Joined: Oct 30, 2014
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July 21st, 2020 at 12:12:17 PM permalink
I am thinking of getting together a small group of players, maybe 4 or 5, to give it a try. Perhaps small stakes on a trial basis, each player plays with their own money and live streams their play. So I'm thinking for example, something like this..

5 players: Each with $5,000 of their own stake.
Team Bankroll: $25,000
Each player plays an agreed upon number of hours or shoes, let's say 1,000 shoes each.
Game: 2D H17, at least 60% pen.
System: Hi-Lo Ill 18 , $25 - $250 spread (-2 wong out).
Each player live streams their play and it is saved.
Once 5,000 shoes of play has been reached by the team OR the bankroll is doubled, profits are split evenly.
Obviously any team member that suffers a big loss would need to have funds redistributed to them, for this each member could view the play if they wish and then would all provide a percentage to the player to stay in play.

This is just an example, could be a lesser amount to start out with. Could also do a live stream of play for each player as a 'test out' for other team members to view. What do you guys think?
Last edited by: theOmega623 on Jul 21, 2020
darkoz
darkoz
Joined: Dec 22, 2009
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July 21st, 2020 at 12:25:29 PM permalink
Quote: AlanMendelson

It depends on the law and if there's a crime or a lawsuit.
On this I suggest going to a lawyer who knows.

I will say this... tribal casinos can be sued in federal court and they can be held accountablle in state courts because of their compacts. They are not above the law with all that "sovereign nation" stuff.



This is completely opposite what Bob Nersessian says and the experience of most AP's with grounds for cause on tribal land

Can you provide some evidence for this?
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
kewlj
kewlj
Joined: Apr 17, 2012
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July 21st, 2020 at 12:29:38 PM permalink
Quote: AlanMendelson


I will say this... tribal casinos can be sued in federal court and they can be held accountablle in state courts because of their compacts. They are not above the law with all that "sovereign nation" stuff.



It used to be thought or assumed that Tribal land was sovereign and US laws didn't apply. But that was never really the case. Someone on tribal land committed a murder and federal or state authorities could and would go get them. Now for lesser crimes, yeah, they allowed the "tribe" to handle most of those things, but that was just a courtesy.

But when you start building casinos and inviting people in to play, things change (or should have). Any claim of a crime, stealing, illegal detention ect, is a claim against the tribe. Having tribal law handle these things is like the old south, where an out of towner would get a speeding ticket on the outskirts of town by the corrupt sheriff and be hauled into court in front of the sheriff's brother-in-law who happens to be the Judge.

I remember about 10 years ago on the blackjack forums, just about the time I relocated to Vegas, all the rage was the games in the Midwest at Indian Casinos. That is where all the blackjack card counters and AP's were flocking to. Games that were still S17 with low house edges and deep penetration to boot. But after a couple years these guys began to realize they either weren't winning at all or weren't winning any where near what these great conditions indicated they should.

Bottom line, you remove a few Aces and/or replace them with 4's or 5's and this great 6 deck game with a .4% house advantage become a game with a 1.5% house advantage, which becomes pretty hard.....not impossible, but much harder to win against via card counting. And the players....well they had little or no recourse because the tribal casinos were free to do what they wanted on their land.

That is why I have always balked at these tribal casinos and their "better" conditions. Give me a game that is actually regulated and I know what recourse I have any day. Tribal casinos and everything involved is just too "murky" for my liking.
kewlj
kewlj
Joined: Apr 17, 2012
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July 21st, 2020 at 1:02:38 PM permalink
Quote: theOmega623

I am thinking of getting together a small group of players, maybe 4 or 5, to give it a try. Perhaps small stakes on a trial basis, each player plays with their own money and live streams their play. So I'm thinking for example, something like this..

5 players: Each with $5,000 of their own stake.
Team Bankroll: $25,000
Each player plays an agreed upon number of hours or shoes, let's say 1,000 shoes each.
Game: 2D H17, at least 60% pen.
System: Hi-Lo Ill 18 , $25 - $250 spread (-2 wong out).
Each player live streams their play and it is saved.
Once 5,000 shoes of play has been reached by the team OR the bankroll is doubled, profits are split evenly.
Obviously any team member that suffers a big loss would need to have funds redistributed to them, for this each member could view the play if they wish and then would all provide a percentage to the player to stay in play.

This is just an example, could be a lesser amount to start out with. Could also do a live stream of play for each player as a 'test out' for other team members to view. What do you guys think?



What do I think? Well since you asked. :/

I think $25-$250 spread is a pretty big spread for double deck games. ESPECIALLY here in Vegas (where you said you play a lot). In Vegas many DD are what I call "counter traps". If you don't like that term, let's just say hawked closely. I don't think you are going to get 1000 shoes in with that big of a spread, let alone 5 different players doing so.

$5000 bankroll that each player would have is not a lot of BR for a $250 max bet. That is 20 max bets. That is Ok for a number of sessions or even a day or two, but anything longer, and just regular variance can have you down 20 max bets, especially at double deck where the count fluctuates a good deal.

So any 1 player has unusual results, anything suspicious, or just unusual negative variance and you and other team members are going to watch through 1000's of shoes and hours of play? This is going to be very time consuming.

It's a plan, but I don't think a great plan. But maybe you can make it work.
theOmega623
theOmega623
Joined: Oct 30, 2014
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July 21st, 2020 at 1:16:44 PM permalink
Quote: kewlj

What do I think? Well since you asked. :/

I think $25-$250 spread is a pretty big spread for double deck games. ESPECIALLY here in Vegas (where you said you play a lot). In Vegas many DD are what I call "counter traps". If you don't like that term, let's just say hawked closely. I don't think you are going to get 1000 shoes in with that big of a spread, let alone 5 different players doing so.

$5000 bankroll that each player would have is not a lot of BR for a $250 max bet. That is 20 max bets. That is Ok for a number of sessions or even a day or two, but anything longer, and just regular variance can have you down 20 max bets, especially at double deck where the count fluctuates a good deal.

So any 1 player has unusual results, anything suspicious, or just unusual negative variance and you and other team members are going to watch through 1000's of shoes and hours of play? This is going to be very time consuming.

It's a plan, but I don't think a great plan. But maybe you can make it work.



Thanks for the feedback Kewlj!

So as for the 1-10 spread on double deck, I have personally had no problem at all with this spread at many places in Vegas. I will sometimes play at a $10 or $15 table just to avoid playing alone but many times I have spread that at a $25 table playing heads up. Players may experience backoffs, but that to me is just part of the game.

As for the $250 max bet, I do agree that may be a little much starting out and that's why I mentioned possibly playing lesser stakes to start. Perhaps $10 - $100 spread with the same BR would be better. I'm thinking the only time play would actually be watched is if members suspected something was off. My thinking was that players knowing their play could be viewed by the team would keep them honest.

Let me know if you have any suggestions, at this point I'm just sort of thinking out loud through the forum. Not exactly sure how it would work best.
Last edited by: theOmega623 on Jul 21, 2020
DRich
DRich
Joined: Jul 6, 2012
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July 21st, 2020 at 1:41:52 PM permalink
Quote: theOmega623

Thanks for the feedback Kewlj!

So as for the 1-10 spread on double deck, I have personally had no problem at all with this spread at many places in Vegas. I will sometimes play at a $10 or $15 table just to avoid playing alone but many times I have spread that at a $25 table playing heads up. Players may experience backoffs, but that to me is just part of the game.

As for the $250 max bet, I do agree that may be a little much starting out and that's why I mentioned possibly playing lesser stakes to start. Perhaps $10 - $100 spread with the same BR would be better. I'm thinking the only time play would actually be watched is if members suspected something was off. My thinking was that players knowing their play could be viewed by the team would keep them honest.

Let me know if you have any suggestions, at this point I'm just sort of thinking out loud through the forum. Not exactly sure how it would work best.



Are there many double deck games at a $10 minimum in Las Vegas? You won't last an hour at the El Cortez spreading 1-10.
Order from chaos
theOmega623
theOmega623
Joined: Oct 30, 2014
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July 21st, 2020 at 2:07:37 PM permalink
Quote: DRich

Are there many double deck games at a $10 minimum in Las Vegas? You won't last an hour at the El Cortez spreading 1-10.



You can find plenty of double deck games at $5, $10, $15, $25 min in Vegas. Not long ago, I played an entire weekend at a $5 min double deck blackjack table at the Orleans, had no problems. And yeah, every counter knows playing at the El Cortez is a waste of time lol
billryan
billryan
Joined: Nov 2, 2009
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Thanks for this post from:
heatmap
July 21st, 2020 at 2:18:04 PM permalink
I just read a blast from the past on the perils of card counting teams. If you google Cigar Afficiando, blackjack teams, the story from the summer of 2003 pops up. I was playing pretty regularly back then and had been approached by someone in Vegas who said he had been watching me play and he was putting together a team. I was flattered but it seemed off. Then I read the article.
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.

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