Ace Five counting possibility for Spanish 21 or double/ single deck

hello there

I am recently bumped into Ace Five counting system and I find it super interesting because my goal is not making money in casinos but not playing a losing game. professional card counting is not simply my thing in a casino. so anyways, my question is how effective this strategy could be in Spanish 21 or double/ single deck games? better or worse? if it is applicable in these games, would it require any basic strategy deviation or not? let's assume that we have 75% penetration on all of these cases. I am far from a math expert so i need your assistance here :)

thanks for your insights in advanced

Hi homany,

One thing I like to mention to everyone that plays the Ace/Five counting system is this: You're still playing a losing game unless you understand all elements of any "system" such as Bankroll Management, Rick of Ruin (RoR), variance, Kelly Betting, etc. If you don't fully understand Kelly betting / your bet spread / etc, then you will always be playing a losing game, even with a winning counting system (which ace/five really isn't... in extreme cases it can be slightly profitable). If you're willing to understand kelly, RoR, etc, then you're multitudes better off (even if you're not trying to go pro) with a better system. If the true count conversion seems daunting to you, try something like KO which has no such conversion.

I don't mean to sound rude, but if you're not interested in learning bankroll management, ror, kelly, etc, then the question you posed is really quite moot, as you're not going to be playing a "break even" game on regular blackjack nor spanish 21.

I am new to this and I am being learning. I already know couple of concepts you mentioned and I am studying on other ones. can you assume I am familiar with those concepts and answer my question? thanks.

You mentioned single and double deck games. It would be more successful in these blackjack games than Spanish 21. However, as Romes mentioned you'll want to understand those other components as well. If you really are interested in a break even or positive game without counting look into Max Rubin's Comp City.

thanks for the answer. can you please elaborate? why it could be more successful in a single deck? and if it could be even more successful in single deck compare to 6 or 8 decks shoe?

Ah, well I'm admittedly not nearly as mathematically inclined as many of the other posters here so you'll likely get better answers from them. Spanish 21 is much different than blackjack, so I imagine any counting system would have to be altered significantly to account for the changed decks. Single deck games will have a lower house edge if they have better rules than shoe games, so by default you would do better with them. Still, I caution you about thinking any number of decks with the ace five count will be successful, especially if you don't look into things like bet spread and penetration.

I don't play much Spanish 21 so I don't know how Ace-5 count would effect that game. Off the top of my head I would think not very well. For regular blackjack, Ace-5 dosen't do much. The days of good games where Ace-5 could get you close to break even are pretty much gone. Single deck 75% pen, yeah maybe, IF IT PAYS 3-2. BE absolutely sure about this before you start playing.

For the most part I will echo Romes. Hi-Lo is a simple count that works. You really don't want to go any "simpler" than that. If the issue is the true count conversion, just go with K-O. Basically the same strength with no TC conversion. . Anything "simpler" than that like speed count of ace-5 and you are getting a much weaker count and probably not worth the effort with today's games.

Quote: homany

thanks for the answer. can you please elaborate? why it could be more successful in a single deck? and if it could be even more successful in single deck compare to 6 or 8 decks shoe?

Let's take single deck. When a single five comes out of the deck, it is roughly equivalent to 8 fives coming out of the deck in a game dealt from an 8-deck shoe. If 2 fives are dealt from a single deck, its equivalent to 16 fives from an 8-deck shoe. Statistically, you will have 2 fives come out of a single deck far more frequently than 16 fives coming out of an 8 decks.

So, the swings in the count are larger and more frequent in single deck and double deck BJ, thus you have more opportunities to have a positive count.

When I first learned to count (decades ago) I started with A-5, usually on single or double deck games. I guess it was a good way to ease into counting but I switched pretty rapidly to HiLo: Tens = +1; 2,3,4,5 = -1.

thank you so much. i totally get the fact that ace five counting is not the best way to count cards but i just want to know more facts and info about it. most probably i will switch to better approaches in the future. i am no mathematician but i am interested in numbers and facts. based on the numbers wizard has provided, the HE of his selected bj game is 0.285 with basic strategy and cut card and player can have a 0.3% positive edge on 1-8 bet spread. is it a correct way of thinking if we assume that ace/five count help players to gain 0.58% edge? therefore, it would be better to apply it to single or double deck games which usually have lower HE? of course, plus the good point you mentioned about them...

I don't think you will be able to spread 1-8 in any single deck game, and even if you could, why risk eight units on such a weak system.

Quote: Romes

Hi homany,

One thing I like to mention to everyone that plays the Ace/Five counting system is this: You're still playing a losing game unless you understand all elements of any "system" such as Bankroll Management, Rick of Ruin (RoR), variance, Kelly Betting, etc. If you don't fully understand Kelly betting / your bet spread / etc, then you will always be playing a losing game, even with a winning counting system (which ace/five really isn't... in extreme cases it can be slightly profitable). If you're willing to understand kelly, RoR, etc, then you're multitudes better off (even if you're not trying to go pro) with a better system. If the true count conversion seems daunting to you, try something like KO which has no such conversion.

I don't mean to sound rude, but if you're not interested in learning bankroll management, ror, kelly, etc, then the question you posed is really quite moot, as you're not going to be playing a "break even" game on regular blackjack nor spanish 21.

You are assuming he has a limited bankroll. If you have an unlimited bankroll there is no point in using Kelly.

Assuming a limited bankroll seems like a good assumption.

Keep in mind that single deck games are extremely rare and double deck games are not that easy to find. And the rules for doubling and splitting may be less favorable for single or double deck. And I agree with billryan that spreading 1-8 would be hard in any single deck game. I would spread maybe 1-3 or and Wong out when the count is very unfavorable (particularly when you are using Hi-Lo rather than A-5.). Just pretend you have a phone call and step away for a moment from the table without making a wager.

In single and double deck games, the insurance bet can be an occasional source of +EV (profit) -but only if you are counting Tens vs low cards, not with A-5.

thanks. makes so much sense. any idea about 8 decks Spanish 21 dealer standing on S17 and 5$ Min Bet? my local casino offers it...

Quote: homany

... is it a correct way of thinking if we assume that ace/five count help players to gain 0.58% edge? therefore, it would be better to apply it to single or double deck games which usually have lower HE? of course, plus the good point you mentioned about them...

Whoa whoa whoa... wanted to catch this one. Counting systems are game dependent. Just because Hi/Low works on regular blackjack, it can work on spanish 21, but the count must be modified to account for all of the 10's out of the deck... So you're starting much more negative. The Ace/Five count does NOT take in to account the 10's, so in my opinion the Ace/Five count would perform MUCH worse on a spanish 21 game than it already does on normal games of blackjack (which already isn't very good).

Here's a good video on the Ace/Five count from Colin at blackjack apprenticeship:

Counting systems are not where the money is. Heat, Penetration, Game Speed, and your spread are the most important elements when evaluating a game. You can have the best game in the world (100% player edge off the top) but if they don't let you play the game (Heat) then what good is it? Similarly, you can have a great shoe game but if they cut 3/6 decks off, then that game is horrible. You can have a great game, decent PEN, a good spread, but if you're getting 10 hands per hour you're much better off on a "crappier" rule set game where you get 200 hands per hour.

Basically, when evaluating a game, if you want the hard numbers, facts, etc, etc, you should really get the Casino Verite software from qfit.com. This software will allow you to sim any game of blackjack with a multitude of different counts, bet spreads, rules, penetration, etc, etc. Basically you could just plug in your criteria and it'll spit out a SCORE for the game and you'll know exactly what the game is worth per hour, positive or negative.

Lastly, if you want to learn a lot more from the technical standpoint, please check out my 3 articles that are posted in the articles section of this very site:

https://wizardofvegas.com/articles/A-to-Z-Counting-Cards-in-Blackjack/
https://wizardofvegas.com/articles/A-to-Z-Counting-Cards-In-Blackjack-2/
https://wizardofvegas.com/articles/A-to-Z-Counting-Cards-in-Blackjack-3/

If you have any questions, I've ALWAYS since joining this forum accepted private messages and answered back with what I'm sure some people have considered novels for answers =P. Don't ever pay anyone for any of this information either (other than the software of course). Anything I could ever tell you is available "somewhere" on the internet. Always something more to learn =).

thank you so much for your insight. my final goal is not actually making money playing blackjack or any casino game i just want to play them better. that's all. i will check your articles. cheers!!!

Quote: homany

thank you so much for your insight. my final goal is not actually making money playing blackjack or any casino game i just want to play them better. that's all. i will check your articles. cheers!!!

Your best best is to simply learn PERFECT basic strategy for each different game (yes, basic strategy slightly differs from a H17 game to a S17 game and then again on a game that offers Surrender). One you've mastered basic strategy and it's changes pending the rule set, then you can hunt games with good rules. That'll be the best option for you to simply play them better if your goal is not to make money or even break even with a small spread. But remember, if you want to "break even" with a small spread, that goal still comes with the burden of learning how to be a winning card counter all the same. Best of luck to you.

I agree with Romes, but the easiest rule to learn, regardless of counting methodology, is this: never play 6:5 blackjack. Often that means playing at a table with a higher minimum, but you cannot win, over time, at a 6:5 game.

If you are going to take the time to learn to count, using any system, then you have committed to raising your game beyond the "lose a little but have fun" thinking of the recreational player. Basic strategy is not hard. The toughest part for me is keeping an accurate running count and, with all the other distractions, converting to true count (...is that 3 decks left, or 4? ...what is +11 divided by 3.5). Any reliable counting method requires these kinds of manipulations. Assigning values to different cards is easy.

But again, the first thing to do when you approach the table is to read the felt. If you see 6:5, move on. Simple as can be.