darkoz
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February 5th, 2019 at 9:00:32 AM permalink
Just watched a doc on cheats and grifters included on the Oceans 13 Bluray

For some reason the MIT Blackjack team was included even though they say a few times they did legal AP

So they interview Barbara Griffin of the newly reopened Griffin Agency and here is her view on why the MIT team actually were cheating.

Paraphrasing: "It was long ago determined that card counting at Blackjack is not illegal as long as the person counting is using their brains and no exterior help. The MIT team crossed over into cheating when they had one person doing the counting and someone else who they signalled to come wager. That person who wagered was not using their brains to determine the count and was relying on the exterior source of the other guy. He was being given information not available to him because he was not seated at the table prior to his large wagers"

WTF?
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TigerWu
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February 5th, 2019 at 9:31:37 AM permalink
So it's cheating if I meet my friend at the sportsbook and I ask him who I should bet on for the Super Bowl because he's been obsessively following the whole season and knows all the stats by heart?
gamerfreak
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February 5th, 2019 at 9:33:57 AM permalink
I may be remembering incorrectly, but I believe Bob N. has said that signaling is a gray area and does not recommend it.

I’ll take a look at his book when I get home to see if that’s correct.
billryan
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February 5th, 2019 at 9:43:05 AM permalink
Signaling will certainly get you tossed from a casino.
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
darkoz
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February 5th, 2019 at 9:51:31 AM permalink
Quote: gamerfreak

I may be remembering incorrectly, but I believe Bob N. has said that signaling is a gray area and does not recommend it.

I’ll take a look at his book when I get home to see if that’s correct.



If I remember Bobs book myself the white side of the grey area is signalling there is a high count does not affect the cards or gameplay

The dark side would be signalling another player in a hole card situation obtained by sitting at another table or seat for example. In that situation the other player can decide his play based on passed info of the exact card in play

The edge is quite clear. A hole carder receiving info knows WHEN to wager to avoid losing. The CC only knows the table is overall favorable and can still lose mightily. He is not using the info to affect any outcomes. He just has a favorable moment

Most casinos IMO have an extremely difficult time seeing the difference in grey areas. Its all B&W to them. If its grey its cheating!
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TigerWu
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February 5th, 2019 at 10:17:59 AM permalink
So the lesson is, instead of covertly signaling, just blatantly yell out loud across the room to your partner; "Hey, Jack, get over here and bet! I got a good feelin' about these next few hands!"
FCBLComish
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February 5th, 2019 at 10:24:17 AM permalink
Trying to be the voice of reason here.

Is signaling cheating? Depending on the situation it could or it could not.

In a legal signaling situation casinos, at least in Nevada and many other jurisdictions, have the right not to allow those players to play blackjack.

I would not have anyone arrested, I would just tell them they can't play blackjack anymore. End of issue.
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gamerfreak
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February 5th, 2019 at 10:30:09 AM permalink
Quote: FCBLComish

Is signaling cheating?


Almost certainly in the case of live Poker.
beachbumbabs
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February 5th, 2019 at 11:43:04 AM permalink
Quote: darkoz

Just watched a doc on cheats and grifters included on the Oceans 13 Bluray

For some reason the MIT Blackjack team was included even though they say a few times they did legal AP

So they interview Barbara Griffin of the newly reopened Griffin Agency and here is her view on why the MIT team actually were cheating.

Paraphrasing: "It was long ago determined that card counting at Blackjack is not illegal as long as the person counting is using their brains and no exterior help. The MIT team crossed over into cheating when they had one person doing the counting and someone else who they signalled to come wager. That person who wagered was not using their brains to determine the count and was relying on the exterior source of the other guy. He was being given information not available to him because he was not seated at the table prior to his large wagers"

WTF?



I can sort of see the logic and transgression in what she said.

However, where do you draw the line? People walk up to a table all the time and say, "winning?" Or "how's it going?" etc. And make a decision whether to sit down based on the answer they get.

If the answer is a preset key phrase that the spotter says in response, well, prove it. If the cue is non-verbal, well, prove it.

As to whether you're physically sitting at the table, what's that have to do with anything? People stand behind a table and watch all the time. They're not all backcounters or counting at all.

But they do have the laws about outside devices or other electronic methods, so you're at least in part getting info from an outside source. Again, prove it. Show where the law is clearly prohibiting any communication among players about the table trend.

The No Mid Shoe Entry rule was designed to stop this. So was the lousy penetration, flat-betting, and their right to make arbitrary decisions about who they will deal to. That has to be enough. They shouldn't be prosecuting on claiming it's illegal.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
billryan
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February 5th, 2019 at 12:25:23 PM permalink
The Griffin Agency doesn't prosecute anyone, as far as I know. They compile and distribute data. What the casinos do with the information is up to the casinos.
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
michael99000
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February 5th, 2019 at 1:49:10 PM permalink
Quote: billryan

Signaling will certainly get you tossed from a casino.



That’s why I just yell.. “Come play here, The Count is high. “
ZenKinG
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February 5th, 2019 at 2:09:47 PM permalink
If team play with a big player is considered cheating, then so is the floor asking surveillance to count you down with outside help from software and signaling the floor to counter measure you or back you off.
Any private business open to the PUBLIC (ie. droned out casinos) cannot have a criminal trespass enforced against an individual without GOOD CAUSE (Disruptive or Disorderly conduct). You will never go to prison for being thrown out of a casino for legal advantage play and then returning because it's simply unconstitutional 'as applied' to the individual. 'As applied' constitutional issues must FIRST be raised in DISTRICT COURT (trial court) to have it thrown out. You CANNOT raise it on APPEAL This is the best kept secret in the world of casinos not just in Vegas but everywhere in the country. Thank me later.
terapined
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February 5th, 2019 at 2:15:40 PM permalink
my poker room is really cracking down on signaling
We need 20 dollars in the pot to hit a high hand 500.00 bonus
There was a pair on the board and I bet
One bettor was willing to call my bet if I had a high hand
He signaled me and I shook my head because I did not have a high hand
The dealer told us any signaling to increase the pot for a high hand bonus will be invalidated
mcallister3200
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February 5th, 2019 at 2:25:26 PM permalink
It’s not a coincidence the griffin agency went bankrupt and had a six figure judgment for libelous data in the grosjean case.
TigerWu
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February 5th, 2019 at 3:01:04 PM permalink
Quote: terapined

my poker room is really cracking down on signaling
We need 20 dollars in the pot to hit a high hand 500.00 bonus
There was a pair on the board and I bet
One bettor was willing to call my bet if I had a high hand
He signaled me and I shook my head because I did not have a high hand
The dealer told us any signaling to increase the pot for a high hand bonus will be invalidated



That sounds like a flaw in the promotion more than anything else.
gamerfreak
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February 5th, 2019 at 4:32:06 PM permalink
Are there any laws against collusion in online poker?
billryan
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February 5th, 2019 at 4:47:04 PM permalink
Quote: gamerfreak

Are there any laws against collusion in online poker?



Isn't that akin to asking if there are laws about how pure the cocaine you buy is?
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
gamerfreak
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February 5th, 2019 at 4:55:34 PM permalink
Quote: billryan

Isn't that akin to asking if there are laws about how pure the cocaine you buy is?


It’s no longer illegal.

Further, it’s been legal in certain jurisdictions for quite some time.
darkoz
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February 5th, 2019 at 5:49:17 PM permalink
Quote: gamerfreak

It’s no longer illegal.

Further, it’s been legal in certain jurisdictions for quite some time.



Cocaine is legal?

Or collusion in Poker?

Or both?

The only cocaine I know is legal are coca cola bottles with peppermint candy canes stuck in them.
Coke Canes.
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gamerfreak
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February 5th, 2019 at 5:54:53 PM permalink
Quote: darkoz

Cocaine is legal?

Or collusion in Poker?

Or both?

The only cocaine I know is legal are coca cola bottles with peppermint candy canes stuck in them.
Coke Canes.


Bill was saying it was a dumb question, alluding that online poker is illegal thus not regulated.

However it has been legal in many areas for years.
FCBLComish
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February 5th, 2019 at 5:57:15 PM permalink
Quote: gamerfreak

Almost certainly in the case of live Poker.



Absolutely!
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KevinAA
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February 6th, 2019 at 1:17:25 AM permalink
At the casino where I work, we employ the following strategy for stopping card counters -- if you increase your bet by a lot because the count is +, we "break the deck" (i.e. re-shuffle). The result is that the player only plays zero or negative counts. It's even more effective than barring, because who would want to play there?

I count but I'm not aggressive about it. If I were playing at a table with an aggressive card counter, and the dealer re-shuffles the deck way too early as a result, I'll just leave and play at another table, because I refuse to play a BJ game where the the hands dealt are all count 0 or negative. This is one reason I prefer to play heads-up (the other being that I get more penetration when there's only one player). Unfortunately it's hard to find a table with no one else there.
FCBLComish
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February 6th, 2019 at 3:22:26 PM permalink
Quote: KevinAA

At the casino where I work, we employ the following strategy for stopping card counters -- if you increase your bet by a lot because the count is +, we "break the deck" (i.e. re-shuffle). The result is that the player only plays zero or negative counts. It's even more effective than barring, because who would want to play there?

I count but I'm not aggressive about it. If I were playing at a table with an aggressive card counter, and the dealer re-shuffles the deck way too early as a result, I'll just leave and play at another table, because I refuse to play a BJ game where the the hands dealt are all count 0 or negative. This is one reason I prefer to play heads-up (the other being that I get more penetration when there's only one player). Unfortunately it's hard to find a table with no one else there.



Ever consider that the counter will just fake a large bet on a negative situation to force a shuffle?
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TigerWu
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February 6th, 2019 at 3:41:07 PM permalink
Quote: FCBLComish

Ever consider that the counter will just fake a large bet on a negative situation to force a shuffle?



Haha... genius...

Somebody should run the numbers on that to see how the math works out.
billryan
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February 6th, 2019 at 4:00:43 PM permalink
Quote: TigerWu

Haha... genius...

Somebody should run the numbers on that to see how the math works out.




It's not a secret and if done effectively it cost nothing because the dealer will shuffle and you pull back your bet. You slowly train your dealers. Put out a tip for him when the count is high and its time to shuffle. Pull the tip if he shuffles instead of dealing. He'll get the idea after a few times and if he doesn't play ball, move and find a dealer who will.
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
KevinAA
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February 7th, 2019 at 12:55:11 AM permalink
Quote: FCBLComish

Ever consider that the counter will just fake a large bet on a negative situation to force a shuffle?



I wrote "because the count is +" not just that someone suddenly makes a large bet. Some people randomly make large bets. We don't care about that. It's when surveillance and/or the pit boss is counting along and knows why the player makes a large bet that I re-shuffle.
darkoz
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February 7th, 2019 at 4:20:18 AM permalink
Quote: KevinAA

I wrote "because the count is +" not just that someone suddenly makes a large bet. Some people randomly make large bets. We don't care about that. It's when surveillance and/or the pit boss is counting along and knows why the player makes a large bet that I re-shuffle.



It has still been taken advantage of.

Gotta find the article but there was a casino that got hit HUGE doing that

Everytime the player had a +ev high count he put a large bet in which caused a card shuffle because the house had a CC person or device themselves.

The only time they allowed a few large bets to play was immediately after the shuffle when the count was neutral or when the count was negative (like you said)

The guy was blasting them for tens of thousands and then after a few days hundreds of thousands. Im not sure how much he cleaned up. Gotta read the article again

Basically he was a CC who mastered ace tracking and clumps and everytime he saw the aces and tens in a clump he purposely threw out a large bet so the house tracking him would reshuffle. He followed the clump, stuck the cut card so the clump was near the top and threw out large bets early in the negative/neutral count

Casinos will never overcome smart AP's lol.
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Joeman
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February 7th, 2019 at 6:17:39 AM permalink
Quote: darkoz

...the house had a CC person or device themselves.

Is the house legally allowed to use 'devices' to count cards? Shouldn't they be subject to the same rules as the player as far as 'counting devices' are concerned?
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darkoz
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February 7th, 2019 at 7:37:58 AM permalink
Quote: Joeman

Is the house legally allowed to use 'devices' to count cards? Shouldn't they be subject to the same rules as the player as far as 'counting devices' are concerned?



It has been challenged in court successfully. But to my knowledge there are no regs or laws against it. Not 100% on thst though
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terapined
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February 7th, 2019 at 8:24:11 AM permalink
Quote: Joeman

Is the house legally allowed to use 'devices' to count cards? Shouldn't they be subject to the same rules as the player as far as 'counting devices' are concerned?



Why would they need a device
I was at the El Cortez
The pit boss was suspicious of a bettor. She simply went through the discard pile to see what the count was
AxelWolf
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February 22nd, 2019 at 2:22:39 PM permalink
Quote: gamerfreak

Are there any laws against collusion in online poker?

I am going to assume whatever laws apply to a B&M casino applies to their online games as well.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
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