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FTB
FTB
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January 14th, 2019 at 2:25:43 PM permalink
Quote: beachbumbabs

I think you should co-write, with Mr V, a Socratic dialogue exploring all sides of this. The site does pay for that sort of thing.



The pay should be two cents.
boymimbo
boymimbo
Joined: Nov 12, 2009
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Thanks for this post from:
ForagerFTBHunterhill
January 14th, 2019 at 3:31:26 PM permalink
Quote: ZenKinG

I doubt Bob was there from the very proceeding starting in district court. If he was, then that leads me to believe that Slade wasn't trespassed for being an AP. We do not know why Slade was excluded other than making assumptions and having bias come into the picture. Maybe he in fact was being disorderly or disruptive in some way or doing something illegal or gray area, but still wanted to contest the issue on a different ground. Or maybe Slade was a sock puppet for the casino behind the scenes to try and get a court decision in the casino's favor, which isn't out of the realm of possibility.



You don't know what you are talking about.

Slade sued the casino and retained Bob from the start. It was his wife that was 86ed from Harrahs in Biloxi. The casino simply declared him guilty by association. You can find a podcast where Bob talks the case in detail. He is very fired up about the topic and says that Nevada is the only state where casinos can bar you for any reason. He went on to say that there have been plenty of people excluded for no reason. And prosecuted for trespassing.

And anyone who has done one iota of research on legal matters in a casino understand that Bob has been defending players rights in Nevada, passionately, for decades when other lawyers wouldn't. He shut down the Griffiin book and ended the practice of casinos being violent towards patrons. The Slade case, if he had won it would have changed AP in Vegas as it would have forced casinos to provide a reason for exclusion at minimum and may have changed the basis for 463.129.3.a.

Once again lower court decisions have no meaning when superceded by a court at a higher level. Slade is the reference case in Nevada.

In my opinion, the only reason you haven't been charged yet is because it is far simpler for them to get you to leave peacefully than for them to do a bunch of paperwork, get police involved, and show up in court. Next time you are backed off, try refusing to leave and test the casino procedures yourself. And there are a number of security personnel and casino staff on this forum who know exactly what the SOPs are.
----- You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
MrV
MrV
Joined: Feb 13, 2010
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January 14th, 2019 at 5:09:29 PM permalink
Quote: ZenKinG

Let me also say this, the point of all of this is, a criminal trespass case for non criminal behavior will get thrown out in court EVERY TIME because the government CANNOT throw you in jail for doing NOTHING CRIMINAL. THAT IS PLAINLY UNCONSTITUTIONAL.



Really?

Are you sure?

Assume you get caught clumsily card counting at MGM, and they flat bet you and tell you that is your limit from then on.

Assume the next day you return, try to bet normally, they detect it and read you the trespass warning and tell you not to return or you'll be in violation of the law.

Assume you return and are arrested.

Do you still feel confident in your analysis?

My advice: contact Bob N. and discuss your notions with him: better that he set you straight now than in the future, after you've been trespassed, arrested, charged, and then retain his services.

And no, do NOT try to represent yourself: it would only prove the wisdom of the old adage.
"What, me worry?"
FTB
FTB
Joined: Jan 5, 2019
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January 14th, 2019 at 5:11:43 PM permalink
Guess it's not the end of the story.

The admission on this thread was that ZQ was read the trespass statute three times.

Was that three different casinos where casino personnel said not to return or only one specific casino that said on three separate occasions not to return?

And did the return(s) take place?

Eventually, an arrest will be made and we shall see if the casino(s) are "sued into oblivion."

The alternative is doing nothing, again, except return here for more of the same old empty rhetoric and teethless threats against the casinos, with sprinkles of locks of the century, couple scoops of cynical conspiracies about this and that being rigged and a teaspoon of meaningless, condescending fasting advice.
ZenKinG
ZenKinG
Joined: May 3, 2016
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January 14th, 2019 at 8:45:43 PM permalink
Quote: boymimbo

You don't know what you are talking about.

Slade sued the casino and retained Bob from the start. It was his wife that was 86ed from Harrahs in Biloxi. The casino simply declared him guilty by association. You can find a podcast where Bob talks the case in detail. He is very fired up about the topic and says that Nevada is the only state where casinos can bar you for any reason. He went on to say that there have been plenty of people excluded for no reason. And prosecuted for trespassing.

And anyone who has done one iota of research on legal matters in a casino understand that Bob has been defending players rights in Nevada, passionately, for decades when other lawyers wouldn't. He shut down the Griffiin book and ended the practice of casinos being violent towards patrons. The Slade case, if he had won it would have changed AP in Vegas as it would have forced casinos to provide a reason for exclusion at minimum and may have changed the basis for 463.129.3.a.

Once again lower court decisions have no meaning when superceded by a court at a higher level. Slade is the reference case in Nevada.

In my opinion, the only reason you haven't been charged yet is because it is far simpler for them to get you to leave peacefully than for them to do a bunch of paperwork, get police involved, and show up in court. Next time you are backed off, try refusing to leave and test the casino procedures yourself. And there are a number of security personnel and casino staff on this forum who know exactly what the SOPs are.



Lower courts don't mean anything? That would only be the case IF there was a supreme court case that dealt with the SAME ISSUE AT HAND that OVERRULED IT, but there was not. The Slade case WAS NOT a trespassing case, let me remind you of that. The Slade case did not involve someone who came back after a trespass, but simply fought about a different issue. Do you want to know why there never was a direct trespassing case where there was no criminal behavior done, in front of the Supreme Court? Because they all get thrown out at the district court level when you seek discovery. The government cannot put you in prison for a trespassing charge in a public place where no criminal, disruptive, or disorderly behavior occurred. End of argument.

You got a lot to learn. I suggest you stop making assumptions of the power of casinos to trespass you for any reasons and refer to the court decisions that ACTUALLY DEALT with a trespassing charge for non criminal behavior where the judge CLEARLY said of the power of casinos to trespass you, because NOT ONCE in the Slade case did the judge say casinos can TRESPASS you for any reason, he provided the exceptions and if you understand anything about law in this country, you know exactly what those exceptions are. The judge said they can exclude you for any reason UNLESS for discriminatory reasons OR OTHERWISE UNLAWFUL REASONS. What are those UNLAWFUL REASONS? How about you learn to read what I write. Slade did not seek discovery in district court. Had he sought discovery, this wouldve never went to the Supreme Court. Slade wanted to battle the case on a different ground and the judge admiited that he could not rule on that issue at hand on whether the casino had a RIGHT TO EXCLUDE HIM. I suggest you read the whole court decision again and find out what really went down.

"Next time you are backed off, try refusing to leave"?

When did I ever say I refuse to leave? Keep putting words in my mouth to further your agenda and argument. My whole argument is them taking action from RESTRICTING ME from entering the premises on ANOTHER day, NOT about REFUSING to leave when told so. I always comply that day to leave.
Any private business open to the PUBLIC (ie. droned out casinos) cannot have a criminal trespass enforced against an individual without GOOD CAUSE (Disruptive or Disorderly conduct). You will never go to prison for being thrown out of a casino for legal advantage play and then returning because it's simply unconstitutional 'as applied' to the individual. 'As applied' constitutional issues must FIRST be raised in DISTRICT COURT (trial court) to have it thrown out. You CANNOT raise it on APPEAL This is the best kept secret in the world of casinos not just in Vegas but everywhere in the country. Thank me later.
MrV
MrV
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January 14th, 2019 at 9:49:28 PM permalink
Assume Slade fleshed out the reason for him being tossed: how would the result be different if "discovery" had occurred?

Do you seriously think the result would be different?

Casinos don't toss people solely because they are gay, or black, or crippled: they have a plausible, legal reason.

No doubt Slade knows why, but for whatever reason that fact is not in the record.

Maybe he was a card counter, or some variant of AP: they're fair game for being tossed.

Whatever, the way the law stands currently the casino can toss you when they wish, and you must prove they acted unlawfully.

Can you meet that burden of proof?
"What, me worry?"
ZenKinG
ZenKinG
Joined: May 3, 2016
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January 15th, 2019 at 12:23:31 AM permalink
Quote: MrV

Assume Slade fleshed out the reason for him being tossed: how would the result be different if "discovery" had occurred?

Do you seriously think the result would be different?

Casinos don't toss people solely because they are gay, or black, or crippled: they have a plausible, legal reason.

No doubt Slade knows why, but for whatever reason that fact is not in the record.

Maybe he was a card counter, or some variant of AP: they're fair game for being tossed.

Whatever, the way the law stands currently the casino can toss you when they wish, and you must prove they acted unlawfully.

Can you meet that burden of proof?



As the Wilkinson and Robertson case says, yes the result would have been different, not to mention the many other cases that probably never even reached the media/public.

The result would have been different because you get it on the RECORD before appearing before an appelate court and proceeding further. Once you get it on the record, the case gets thrown out because the government has no evidence of criminal behavior to make a criminal trespass valid. You cant trespass someone from a business open to the public just because you feel like it and the government cant throw you in jail just because they feel like it as that would be unconstitutional. If the judge still doesnt throw it out, you will have to appeal it and win just like Wilkinson had to do.

It is very important to seek discovery on an 'as applied' statute type of argument in your first court appearance such as district court, because if you dont, you lose all chance of bringing up later on. If you think a statute such as NRS 207.200 was unconstitutional in its 'application' towards you, you must bring that up at the very first court appearance(trial/district court). Whereas a 'facial' argument regarding its constitutionality as a whole, can be brought up at any time.
Any private business open to the PUBLIC (ie. droned out casinos) cannot have a criminal trespass enforced against an individual without GOOD CAUSE (Disruptive or Disorderly conduct). You will never go to prison for being thrown out of a casino for legal advantage play and then returning because it's simply unconstitutional 'as applied' to the individual. 'As applied' constitutional issues must FIRST be raised in DISTRICT COURT (trial court) to have it thrown out. You CANNOT raise it on APPEAL This is the best kept secret in the world of casinos not just in Vegas but everywhere in the country. Thank me later.
MrV
MrV
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January 15th, 2019 at 7:26:45 AM permalink
I don't understand your argument.

You seem to be claiming that a casino needs to have an appropriate reason to throw you out; I disagree, I believe the law says that you can be tossed for any reason so long as the reason is not unlawful, e.g. discrimination against a protected class such as race, sex, religion.

Assume as in the above scenario that a player is given a formal trespass warning for counting cards and ordered to leave and to never returh; assume that they come back later and are arrested for criminal trespass.

Assume that during the initial criminal trial that the reason for giving the warning, card counting, is adduced in testimony and is in the court record.
"What, me worry?"
Zcore13
Zcore13
Joined: Nov 30, 2009
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January 15th, 2019 at 7:30:22 AM permalink
Quote: MrV

I don't understand your argument.

You seem to be claiming that a casino needs to have an appropriate reason to throw you out; I disagree, I believe the law says that you can be tossed for any reason so long as the reason is not unlawful, e.g. discrimination against a protected class such as race, sex, religion.

Assume as in the above scenario that a player is given a formal trespass warning for counting cards and ordered to leave and to never returh; assume that they come back later and are arrested for criminal trespass.

Assume that during the initial criminal trial that the reason for giving the warning, card counting, is adduced in testimony and is in the court record.



He will never admit he's wrong. Not on this or any other of his false claims and statements. Even after he gets arrested at some point it will be the casino and drones fault.


ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
SOOPOO
SOOPOO
Joined: Aug 8, 2010
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January 15th, 2019 at 7:32:48 AM permalink
Quote: ZenKinG



When did I ever say I refuse to leave? Keep putting words in my mouth to further your agenda and argument. My whole argument is them taking action from RESTRICTING ME from entering the premises on ANOTHER day, NOT about REFUSING to leave when told so. I always comply that day to leave.



Thank you for answering my question about when you feel that you can return after being asked to leave. You now clearly say 'another day'. I recommend you try this.... Try and be asked to leave sometime slightly before midnight, then return slightly after midnight as since it is now 'another day' and according to you they cannot stop you from returning. Let us know what the result is. thanks.

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