Predictable RNG game, exploitable?

I spotted something remarkable about a certain RNG version of blackjack that I've been playing recently. It has a certain predictability of outcome! ( I previously suspected the game to be gaffed )

Don't get excited. It's not yet revealed a major exploitable weakness, but it has got me looking very closely. There's at least one 'tell' that was either intentionally or unintentionally left in by the designer?

This is what I discovered so far...

When I complete the playing decisions of my hand, the dealer turns his hole card: Nothing unusual there.

But if the dealer is about to beat my hand, that action is instant if he's got me beaten, but seriously delayed by about half a second if it will be a push or a player win!

It now bugs me so much, and it's so conspicuous to me that when I see that half second delay in turning the hole card, I have time to think to myself 'I'm OK' and predict that I haven't yet lost and I'm not about to lose. Of course, if the hole card turns instantly, I know in advance 'I've lost or I'm about to lose', even if the dealer is dealing himself more cards.

Example.
My hand is 17 and dealer has an 8 showing.
I click 'stand'
There is a perceptible delay as the dealer turns his hole card.
I KNOW that I have not lost. It may be a push or I may win, but no way in hell I lose.
Dealer might turn a 2 and proceed to draw more cards. I KNOW I WON'T LOSE the hand. He's not going to end with say 8,2,10!

Alternatively, the dealer might turn his hole card INSTANTLY after I click stand. I KNOW, regardless what his hole card is, that I'm about to lose the hand.

I've observed this over dozens of hands and it is rock steady consistent.

The 'tell' is equally perceptible in play money or real money mode.

It makes me wonder if I need to look for other delay phenomena ( tells ) that might reveal the outcome before I've finished making my play decisions. If I find such characteristics, then I MIGHT have an exploitable flaw from the game's coding.

Can anyone offer any explanation why the dealer would turn his cards slowly when I'm about to win or push? I can't see any value to the casino in having that delay?

Anyone interested in helping me explore the game behaviour, see what I see and look for more? If so, PM me.
I may have to be a bit selective on what I share with who.

OD.

Obviously this is 100% speculation but I doubt this is a flaw with the RNG.

I would suspect that whatever code that is executed when the player wins/pushes is doing something less efficient than when the player loses, and causing a noticible lag.

You haven't described anything interesting from a perspective of predicting the outcome while you still have any pending decisions.

Quote: gamerfreak

Obviously this is 100% speculation but I doubt this is a flaw with the RNG.

I would suspect that whatever code that is executed when the player loses is doing something that is less efficient than when the player wins, and causing a noticible lag.

I agree. The RNG is what it is and probably put the randomly selected cards where they are supposed to be. But it seems that during the game resolution phase, there is speedier resolution of player losing. What's remarkable is that speedier resolution is apparent as the hole card turns, BEFORE any other dealer cards are dealt.

Quote: sabre

You haven't described anything interesting from a perspective of predicting the outcome while you still have any pending decisions.

Also, agreed. I've discovered a 'tell' that is perceptible after I've made all my playing decision. But the fact that there is a 'tell' implies that the game is shoddily written and may have other flaws that may be useful. Worth another look, IMHO. E.g. If i discover a tell when insurance is offered?

Quote: sabre

You haven't described anything interesting from a perspective of predicting the outcome while you still have any pending decisions.

I think this is the main point. But it certainly is worth you looking for another 'tell' that occurs while you can change a pending decision. I'll bet you a Guinness you don't find one.

Quote: SOOPOO

I think this is the main point. But it certainly is worth you looking for another 'tell' that occurs while you can change a pending decision. I'll bet you a Guinness you don't find one.

No bet... But if I do uncover an exploitable tell, I'll paypal you a Guinness, right after I smash the house into submission.
Note. I already found a hugely profitable software exploit in one of the games at this gaff. It happens $:o)

I wonder if the delay is deliberate to add a bit of suspense for the player before revealing the win or tie. Whereas the immediate reveal of a losing hand is an effort to reduce the player's disappojintment by not allowing the player enough time to speculate on the outcome.

Quote: gordonm888

I wonder if the delay is deliberate to add a bit of suspense for the player before revealing the win or tie.

I doubt it. It is probably just updating the player account with the new balance and related accounting. My Ace Invaders game on the IGT platform has a noticeable delay when drawing cards if the hand is improving to a winner with aces changing hands. The longer the delay, the better the hand is.

Quote: DRich

I doubt it. It is probably just updating the player account with the new balance and related accounting. My Ace Invaders game on the IGT platform has a noticeable delay when drawing cards if the hand is improving to a winner with aces changing hands. The longer the delay, the better the hand is.

Now I want to play your game to actually see this happen. Lol

Another VP "glitch" from an entertainment perspective is in "Big Times Draw Poker". The multiplier is based on the highest non-Ace card in your deal hand. But the paytable adjusts for the multiplier before all the deal cards are revealed to the player.

Maybe. I'm 50/50 that it's a program flaw or a bit of psychology.
The software looks lame and has other flaws, so I'm hopeful

So...... nothing of use here?

Quote: SM777

So...... nothing of use here?

pretty much


I think it's kinda interesting, nonetheless.

Quote: OnceDear

I spotted something remarkable about a certain RNG version of blackjack that I've been playing recently. It has a certain predictability of outcome! ( I previously suspected the game to be gaffed )

Don't get excited. It's not yet revealed a major exploitable weakness, but it has got me looking very closely. There's at least one 'tell' that was either intentionally or unintentionally left in by the designer?

This is what I discovered so far...

When I complete the playing decisions of my hand, the dealer turns his hole card: Nothing unusual there.

But if the dealer is about to beat my hand, that action is instant if he's got me beaten, but seriously delayed by about half a second if it will be a push or a player win!

It now bugs me so much, and it's so conspicuous to me that when I see that half second delay in turning the hole card, I have time to think to myself 'I'm OK' and predict that I haven't yet lost and I'm not about to lose. Of course, if the hole card turns instantly, I know in advance 'I've lost or I'm about to lose', even if the dealer is dealing himself more cards.

Example.
My hand is 17 and dealer has an 8 showing.
I click 'stand'
There is a perceptible delay as the dealer turns his hole card.
I KNOW that I have not lost. It may be a push or I may win, but no way in hell I lose.
Dealer might turn a 2 and proceed to draw more cards. I KNOW I WON'T LOSE the hand. He's not going to end with say 8,2,10!

Alternatively, the dealer might turn his hole card INSTANTLY after I click stand. I KNOW, regardless what his hole card is, that I'm about to lose the hand.

I've observed this over dozens of hands and it is rock steady consistent.

The 'tell' is equally perceptible in play money or real money mode.

It makes me wonder if I need to look for other delay phenomena ( tells ) that might reveal the outcome before I've finished making my play decisions. If I find such characteristics, then I MIGHT have an exploitable flaw from the game's coding.

Can anyone offer any explanation why the dealer would turn his cards slowly when I'm about to win or push? I can't see any value to the casino in having that delay?

Anyone interested in helping me explore the game behaviour, see what I see and look for more? If so, PM me.
I may have to be a bit selective on what I share with who.

OD.

I dont think it would be exploitable because the decision was already made, but if it were, it would be on the double downs and splits.

You need to see if during those situations, that if your hypothesis is not true, then obviously its not exploitable, because the only option or chance to change your hand amount is when you can hit.

If it works, i would double down every hand you have to hit. Because no matter what the outcome was already chosen, but now you know that you can always have a tell as to whether or not you should double down during the hand or not.

Quote: heatmap

Quote: OnceDear

I spotted something remarkable about a certain RNG version of blackjack that I've been playing recently. It has a certain predictability of outcome! ( I previously suspected the game to be gaffed )

Don't get excited. It's not yet revealed a major exploitable weakness, but it has got me looking very closely. There's at least one 'tell' that was either intentionally or unintentionally left in by the designer?

This is what I discovered so far...

When I complete the playing decisions of my hand, the dealer turns his hole card: Nothing unusual there.

But if the dealer is about to beat my hand, that action is instant if he's got me beaten, but seriously delayed by about half a second if it will be a push or a player win!

It now bugs me so much, and it's so conspicuous to me that when I see that half second delay in turning the hole card, I have time to think to myself 'I'm OK' and predict that I haven't yet lost and I'm not about to lose. Of course, if the hole card turns instantly, I know in advance 'I've lost or I'm about to lose', even if the dealer is dealing himself more cards.

Example.
My hand is 17 and dealer has an 8 showing.
I click 'stand'
There is a perceptible delay as the dealer turns his hole card.
I KNOW that I have not lost. It may be a push or I may win, but no way in hell I lose.
Dealer might turn a 2 and proceed to draw more cards. I KNOW I WON'T LOSE the hand. He's not going to end with say 8,2,10!

Alternatively, the dealer might turn his hole card INSTANTLY after I click stand. I KNOW, regardless what his hole card is, that I'm about to lose the hand.

I've observed this over dozens of hands and it is rock steady consistent.

The 'tell' is equally perceptible in play money or real money mode.

It makes me wonder if I need to look for other delay phenomena ( tells ) that might reveal the outcome before I've finished making my play decisions. If I find such characteristics, then I MIGHT have an exploitable flaw from the game's coding.

Can anyone offer any explanation why the dealer would turn his cards slowly when I'm about to win or push? I can't see any value to the casino in having that delay?

Anyone interested in helping me explore the game behaviour, see what I see and look for more? If so, PM me.
I may have to be a bit selective on what I share with who.

OD.

I dont think it would be exploitable because the decision was already made, but if it were, it would be on the double downs and splits.

You need to see if during those situations, that if your hypothesis is not true, then obviously its not exploitable, because the only option or chance to change your hand amount is when you can hit.

If it works, i would double down every hand you have to hit. Because no matter what the outcome was already chosen, but now you know that you can always have a tell as to whether or not you should double down during the hand or not.

You misunderstand. THIS tell only occurs after my betting decisions have been completed. So. this tell is worthless. But I suspect and hope that it might be indicative that the programming is shoddy and flawed. Hence I'm looking closely for other tells and flaws such as when insurance is offered.

You probably just found a piece of glass and not a diamond. I'm with those saying it's a glitch, but not a tell.

I don't see how this can help you. When you finish your turn, the outcome is already decided. It doesn't matter how fast or slow the outcome is revealed to you.

Quote: BlackjackLover

I don't see how this can help you. When you finish your turn, the outcome is already decided. It doesn't matter how fast or slow the outcome is revealed to you.

Read my follow-up posts. I know and always knew that this tell / feature is of no value to me. But it makes me wonder if it's going to be one of multiple features and that further observation might reveal an exploitable weakness. E.g. if i see some quirky behaviour or timing when offered insurance.

It will probably amount to nothing but this is interesting. As people have suggested, it is likely either a deliberate inclusion in the game to build tension, or genuinely a glitch in the programming. I would guess that as soon as you have completed your final playing decision the rng runs instantly, then the turn of the card comes after that, once the game already knows what is to be revealed.

Being (very) optimistic, it all comes down to at which point or points the rng runs. If there is somewhere to interrogate the software it might turn out that the rng runs as soon as the deal button is pressed, at which point the cards which will be dealt to each hand are decided in advance. If that were the case then some profitable method of predicting outcomes could be devised and a river of cash would follow.

I've always assumed (with no evidence whatsoever) that all online rng based games use at least one clock or timer within an office somewhere which can be reset at the push of a button, so that even if someone backwards engineered the software there would be no way to predict outcomes because one of the factors the rng uses would remain unpredictable.

Anyway, good luck and I hope you find something!

Quote: OnceDear

Read my follow-up posts. I know and always knew that this tell / feature is of no value to me. But it makes me wonder if it's going to be one of multiple features and that further observation might reveal an exploitable weakness. E.g. if i see some quirky behaviour or timing when offered insurance.

Screw it im going to keep this going for one more test.

See if you can apply the delay to the next hand.

Sometimes, they generate the next results based on the current result, or it’s used in the generation of the next number.

What if it takes longer to generate a winning or losing hand.

Simply use your logic and try to say “the next hand will be a win or loss.

This delay could be an arbitrary process within the game though. I wouldn’t stop digging if I were you.

Quote: heatmap

Quote: OnceDear

Read my follow-up posts. I know and always knew that this tell / feature is of no value to me. But it makes me wonder if it's going to be one of multiple features and that further observation might reveal an exploitable weakness. E.g. if i see some quirky behaviour or timing when offered insurance.

Screw it im going to keep this going for one more test.

See if you can apply the delay to the next hand.

Sometimes, they generate the next results based on the current result, or it’s used in the generation of the next number.

What if it takes longer to generate a winning or losing hand.

Simply use your logic and try to say “the next hand will be a win or loss.

This delay could be an arbitrary process within the game though. I wouldn’t stop digging if I were you.

I'm going to vid cap a bundle of games spanning a few doubles and blackjacks. Then I'll use vid software to accurately time all aspects. Then decide and test a few hypotheses. Maybe invest a day or so. Worst case I draw a blank and waste some time.

Quote: OnceDear

I'm going to vid cap a bundle of games spanning a few doubles and blackjacks. Then I'll use vid software to accurately time all aspects. Then decide and test a few hypotheses. Maybe invest a day or so. Worst case I draw a blank and waste some time.

ive recently JUST got into this, as im going to try to incorporate a youtube channel into my plans.

Ive found out, in order to remove some of the watermarks and limitations within some of the programs that ive had to use multiple pieces of software if i want a high quality video AND be able to do basic editing

This one allows you to record your screen for an unlimited amount of time along with as big of a screen as you want. Not sure about 4k or up. Bonus it also allows you to stream and make your own layout of that stream, as in you can have your camera on you, along with multiple other sources of videos on the same screen such as a screencast
https://
obsproject
.com/

This one allows for free, and professional editing of the videos you took with OBS
https://
www
.openshot
.org/

so far i find to do basic videos with some basic effects such as fade in and out and its all i need

Quote: OnceDear

Read my follow-up posts. I know and always knew that this tell / feature is of no value to me. But it makes me wonder if it's going to be one of multiple features and that further observation might reveal an exploitable weakness. E.g. if i see some quirky behaviour or timing when offered insurance.

It could be intentional. It makes sense to reveal the outcome immediately when you lose. There is no need to keep you in suspense when you're going to be disappointed. On the other hand, maybe delaying to reveal that you win can make you feel better (the short wait is worth it). Anyway, be careful. In case you find other quirky behaviors, they may be random and have nothing to do with the results.

Hey Once, I'm almost sure I just noticed something like this in the blackjack game I have been playing. If you are interested, i have the exact game, website, and situation to look for. This one is actually bad in my opinion. There is a tell which basically tells me if the dealer has a blackjack and if i should take insurance or not. This is a free to play game with only fun play credits for me in my state, but im almost sure that this game could be in production somewhere else for real money. Please message me and ill give you all of the details. I would have messaged you but that function of this site alludes me.

edit i also records some of my sessions which ill review and can possibly post online if its true.

Quote: heatmap

Hey Once, I'm almost sure I just noticed something like this in the blackjack game I have been playing. If you are interested, i have the exact game, website, and situation to look for. This one is actually bad in my opinion. There is a tell which basically tells me if the dealer has a blackjack and if i should take insurance or not.

Hi HM,
This is the sort of 'tell' that I was inclined to look for after finding the one that i did.

I'd love to see what you have discovered but first you need to 'Enable private messaging'. To do that, click on your user name at the upper right of the screen and select 'Preferences'

Quote: heatmap

i also records some of my sessions which ill review and can possibly post online if its true.

I'm interested. You can send me a private message as well.

Quote: BlackjackLover

I'm interested. You can send me a private message as well.

OI! Ya greedy Brit :o)

Im going to admit I was most likely wrong about this, but I don't know why I - think - I noticed a difference within the play.
Im just going to tell you all what I think i saw.

Anyways the game is GAN Pro Blackjack.

What I thought I saw, was part of the animations of the game. The animations I am speaking about is sort of a secondary part which you aren't supposed to notice, but its simply an illumination or a spot-light which tells the player which hand is currently active for play.

Normally, the animation is always focused on the players hand at first.

What I thought i saw, was the spotlight focused on the dealers hand at first, and only when an ace was showing so when i pressed "No" for insurance, the spotlight wouldnt move if the dealer had BJ

The next scenario is the exact same thing where its only on the dealer ace up, but when I was offered insurance, the spotlight had stayed focused on my hand if the dealer didnt have BJ. Of which I thought indicated that the dealer didnt have blackjack.

The second scenario is supposed to be the correct scenario all the time where the spotlight was supposed to be focused on the players hand no matter if the dealer has blackjack at first or not.

I have reviewed my play and am going to say that I simply wasn't paying attention to the events and the order that they hapened because I can't reproduce the events now.

I am also going to say I am slightly doubting my doubt, and that I don't know if I would have made this post had I not noticed something different as I play this specific game every day for at least an hour just to pass time.

Oh, and this version also pays out even money on an ace up blackjack if the player has blackjack as well (ill update this if i find im wrong)

Quote: heatmap

Im going to admit I was most likely wrong about this, but I don't know why I - think - I noticed a difference within the play.
Im just going to tell you all what I think i saw.

Anyways the game is GAN Pro Blackjack.

Thanks,
I googled that and found their website. It's riddled with typos and 404 errors, even spelling Blackjack wrongly.
That does give me hope that their software is flawed and they do seem to be involved with real money sites.

We're going on a bear hunt :o)