tomchina123
Joined: Aug 26, 2015
• Posts: 282
September 30th, 2018 at 7:39:51 AM permalink
is there any excel Combinational analysis for blackjack?

the reason for me to ask this is that, after checking Eliot't excel for bac, i now can do all calcluations of almost all side bets besides banker, player, tie. and by excel, when click once, all data changes, it is self satisfactory, what is more, it seems that the excel way can be applied to many other games , like 'niuniu'='cattle cattle
'，the popular chinese game, i never kneww i can finish this before.

now comes the asking-for-help. for blackjack, if there is any ready one i can read, then i know it is finishable and i found a good site:http://www.bjstrat.net/cgi-bin/cdca.cgi is this done by excel or some codes?
gordonm888
Joined: Feb 18, 2015
• Posts: 2859
September 30th, 2018 at 8:53:36 AM permalink
Many of us use excel for just the type of analysis you mention and develop spreadsheets that analyze blackjack and casino games of all kinds. However, I do not know whether the bjstrat hand calculator that you cite uses a spreadsheet model or a different programming language.

The most important excel function for combinational math is combin( number, number chosen) which returns the number of combinations for a given number of items. The formula in the function is:

combin( n, k ) = n! / ( k! * (n-k)! )

I would encourage you to examine the list of mathematical functions in your excel spreadsheet software.
So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.
miplet
Joined: Dec 1, 2009
• Posts: 1953
September 30th, 2018 at 4:33:14 PM permalink
For a bunch of Blackjack side bets, you can see some examples that I have done at http://miplet.net/blackjack/ (that reminds me I need to fix the super 4 progressive)

You can also do an infinite deck analysis easily in excel. Wizard has a youtube video at https://youtu.be/jCF-Btu5ZCk .
“Man Babes” #AxelFabulous
OnceDear
Joined: Jun 1, 2014
• Posts: 5034
September 30th, 2018 at 4:40:47 PM permalink
Quote: miplet

You can also do an infinite deck analysis easily in excel. Wizard has a youtube video at https://youtu.be/jCF-Btu5ZCk .

I have modified Wizards spreadsheet to do actual shoe derivation of house edge and optimum strategy ( ongoing through the shoe). If you want to see it, PM me. It's a bit of a lash up and modified for European NHC rules.
Take care out there. Spare a thought for the newly poor who were happy in their world just a few days ago, but whose whole way of life just collapsed..
tomchina123
Joined: Aug 26, 2015
• Posts: 282
September 30th, 2018 at 4:55:47 PM permalink
Quote: gordonm888

Many of us use excel for just the type of analysis you mention and develop spreadsheets that analyze blackjack and casino games of all kinds. However, I do not know whether the bjstrat hand calculator that you cite uses a spreadsheet model or a different programming language.

The most important excel function for combinational math is combin( number, number chosen) which returns the number of combinations for a given number of items. The formula in the function is:

combin( n, k ) = n! / ( k! * (n-k)! )

I would encourage you to examine the list of mathematical functions in your excel spreadsheet software.

maybe it is till my poor english, which i learned no-abroad.
here is a picture to show how bac is done.
i don't know how to attach pictures.
but the excel file can do almost all this in some seconds.https://wizardofodds.com/games/baccarat/appendix/5/#toc-DragonBonus
tomchina123
Joined: Aug 26, 2015
• Posts: 282
September 30th, 2018 at 5:01:38 PM permalink
Quote: miplet

For a bunch of Blackjack side bets, you can see some examples that I have done at http://miplet.net/blackjack/ (that reminds me I need to fix the super 4 progressive)

You can also do an infinite deck analysis easily in excel. Wizard has a youtube video at https://youtu.be/jCF-Btu5ZCk .

thanks, i will go through it later, my vpn is not working well.
by the way, do u know there is a way to do billions of simulations of your side bet without really doing it? maybe there is a formula for true count going up and down?

also maybe you can figure it out the main bet of blackjack by excel:to cover all possiblites by lines and columns? i read u, 95% you can do it.
gordonm888
Joined: Feb 18, 2015
• Posts: 2859
October 2nd, 2018 at 6:42:19 AM permalink
I am not aware of any functions or canned 'macros" in Excel that automatically calculate Blackjack game characteristics for you. There are commercial software packages (for sale on the internet) that can calculate many things about blackjack.

Part of our difficulty in discussing this has to do with what you actually want to calculate.

1. Strategy? Hit or stand on hard 12 vs 4? What to do with a pair of 2s vs 2? EV for player options on a specific hand? (There are free hand calculators on the internet for that, such as BJStrat and the WizardofOdds site -WOO - calculators)

2. How does return/house edge/player EV change with rules? (again the WOO calculator and BJSTRAT handle that well.)

3. Blackjack sidebet returns?

4. Card counting information? Shoe penetration?

Many of us program our own models into Excel to calculate what we are interested in. Because new game variations and sidebets arise all the time, many of us are constantly revising our programs and adding to our "libraries" of analysis tools. Some of us swap ideas and analyses here on this forum, and I am always learning from the other experts on this forum.

Miplet has some spreadsheet models that he posts and offers access to via this forum. MustangSally also posts some non-spreadsheet models for others to use. I occasionally develop Excel spreadsheet models and email them to forum members to help them. And there are many other brilliant programmers here who can be helpful in various ways. So, just keep interacting and tell us more specifically about what you are interested in.
So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.
mustangsally
Joined: Mar 29, 2011
• Posts: 2463
October 2nd, 2018 at 8:49:43 AM permalink
Quote: gordonm888

MustangSally also posts some non-spreadsheet models for others to use.

The OP shows a link to non-Excel CA (BJSTRAT) that is fast in my Win10 laptop except when wanting splits up to 4 hands, then it takes well over an hour for only one computation.

Excel is way too slow in comparison as it is not compiled as C or C++ can be.

Ion Saliu, iirc, did a CA (all permutations, no suits) on single deck BJ and the text files are massive as expected.

imo, the project asked for can NOT be done successfully in Excel.
The one for Baccarat the OP mentions is over 300k rows in Excel (combinations and permutations) and older Excel can not open that.
The number of 6-card permutations only for Baccarat is exactly 1 million rows and that slows down even for newer Excels using over 5 columns.

I would say, one would do way better by staying away from Excel for what the OP requests.

btw, imo, if it was possible, I say it would have already been done
I mean Dr. Thorp started massive computer work
and knows about combinations and permutations
and if it was possible, someone could have done that by now

Sally
I Heart Vi Hart
charliepatrick
Joined: Jun 17, 2011
• Posts: 2341
October 2nd, 2018 at 9:47:09 AM permalink
Quote: mustangsally

...in Excel.
The one for Baccarat the OP mentions is over 300k rows in Excel (combinations and permutations) and older Excel can not open that.
The number of 6-card permutations only for Baccarat is exactly 1 million rows and that slows down even for newer Excels using over 5 columns.

With a bit of smarts (for instance P:10 9 B:10 10 is the same as P:9 10 B:10 10 but add a column to say can occur 2x reduces it quite a bit (3025 rather than 10000). Then some of these won't take more cards (or only one). So this gets it down to about 103k more lines (in my excel this has to be split across two sheets).

I've never tried (except for the push 22 sidebet) to look at all 54k combinations of the dealer's hand on s17 (which I created using a program and then worked out what I needed to know for each one).

I'm guessing you need to keep a database of combinations you've already analysed (e.g. 6 3 2 A is the same as 6 2 3 A, A 2 3 6, A 3 6 2 (yes I know you wouldn't hit soft 20 but the computer has to work that out!).
tomchina123
Joined: Aug 26, 2015
• Posts: 282
October 3rd, 2018 at 8:03:47 PM permalink
Quote: gordonm888

I am not aware of any functions or canned 'macros" in Excel that automatically calculate Blackjack game characteristics for you. There are commercial software packages (for sale on the internet) that can calculate many things about blackjack.

Part of our difficulty in discussing this has to do with what you actually want to calculate.

1. Strategy? Hit or stand on hard 12 vs 4? What to do with a pair of 2s vs 2? EV for player options on a specific hand? (There are free hand calculators on the internet for that, such as BJStrat and the WizardofOdds site -WOO - calculators)

2. How does return/house edge/player EV change with rules? (again the WOO calculator and BJSTRAT handle that well.)

3. Blackjack sidebet returns?

4. Card counting information? Shoe penetration?

Many of us program our own models into Excel to calculate what we are interested in. Because new game variations and sidebets arise all the time, many of us are constantly revising our programs and adding to our "libraries" of analysis tools. Some of us swap ideas and analyses here on this forum, and I am always learning from the other experts on this forum.

Miplet has some spreadsheet models that he posts and offers access to via this forum. MustangSally also posts some non-spreadsheet models for others to use. I occasionally develop Excel spreadsheet models and email them to forum members to help them. And there are many other brilliant programmers here who can be helpful in various ways. So, just keep interacting and tell us more specifically about what you are interested in.

thanks .what i want is to show all kinds of datas like this link: https://wizardofodds.com/games/blackjack/appendix/1/
reading is sth, but to do it on my own is another thing, which means different understanding.
what is more, macau rule is ENHC, but dealer's blackjack, we only lose original bet. for this rule, few are putting good datas on it.

thanks again for other info.

adding up, there are some hands:
like A2V5, A4V4, if we consider the cards dealt, the strategy is different. in realty, the cards are really dealt out. it is a topic including composition (in)dependent. the strategy maker and tester is not stating it. so without doing all things by myself, i shall not discover it.
Last edited by: tomchina123 on Oct 3, 2018