Advice for New Counters

Hey everyone! Thank you for any input you are able to give.
I have been following the Wizard for about a year and a half now but only recently have I gotten myself where I think I'm actually ready to pursue counting more aggressively. There are several forums on how NOT to start an AP career and it seems everybody does a great job of reminding new users what to be cautious of and the red flags we often see with individuals who get too excited and too aggressive too quickly.

But I have been fortunate enough to set aside about 100K for this venture (half intended to be allocated towards my 2019 expenses) and I am excited to give counting a go. I have spent the summer in Vegas playing minimum stakes at various properties implementing the hi-lo method, illustrious 18, and fab 4 to my basic strategy approach. I am proud to say I have spent over 100 hours at the tables without losing count and although I did not get backed off - I did get a stern talking to by a small casino pit boss. I imagine I am still quite a ways away from the skills the 6 and 7-figure earners in this forum have amassed over the past two or three decades. I have picked up a couple of books and invested in CV and CVCX so I have done quite a bit of research on ROR, spreads, projected returns, and bankroll management. But as mentioned - I still have a few questions. Is anyone willing and able to help? All input is greatly appreciated.


FULL TIME PLAY
It's been said time and time again not to play full time at the same casino. Makes sense. I am comfortable traveling if need be and states are frequently passing gaming East of the Mississippi making a variety of options more and more accessible every day. For those of you who play full time,

1. What do you consider full-time? How much time do you spend at the tables and how much time traveling? How much time killing time at the casino looking for a new pit or waiting for heat to mellow out? More or less curious what a typical session looks like from when you walk in the casino until you walk out.
2. I saw a couple of forums about the pros/cons of player's cards/rewards cards. Do you use one at every casino you visit? Or just one or two?
3. How many casinos are in your circuit? Living in the Mid-West, the Ohio/Indiana casinos are relatively close together (Chicago, Louisville, Cincinnati, Columbus, Cleveland) and the same could be said for the Baltimore/AC/D.C./Philly area. Florida too. No one would want to visit all of them in a single weekend but you could easily target one city every weekend of the month. Is it necessary to play at 10+ casinos to avoid heat or is 4 or 5 sufficient?


WHAT THE BOOKS DONT TELL YOU

1. These forums seem to encourage 1 on 1 play. Something I have yet to do. Does anyone have any idea about how many more rounds per hour most dealers can pitch with a single player at the table versus three or four?
2. The math is in favor of two $300 hands instead of one $400 hand. Significantly less ROR. Is there a time when you definitely want to split to two or three hands? Surely that can attract heat... Any input on how to do this and whether it's worth it or not?
3. I love the forums on cheap cover. So many creative ways to disguise your strategy. Does anyone have any advice on how to wong-in/wong-out without drawing attention? You can only step away from the shoe to respond to a text message while still watching the shoe like a hawk so many times... This is one of my biggest concerns when playing at higher stakes.
4. Obviously playing nights/weekends is going to allow for bigger crowds and bigger games. Playing during the day, I fear, equates to fewer distractions for both you and the staff meaning more individualized attention. Do you guys like to play at any particular time?
5. The sims tell us what our ROR is on a collective bankroll and what our betting units/spreads should look like. What percentage of your bankroll do you typically bring on a single trip?
6. We know the dealers are the casinos first line of defense and being courteous is stressed repeatedly in these forums. But what does this mean? How often should I tip and how much?


Lots of questions and I'm sure there are so many more that are escaping my memory!
If you guys could tackle any of these questions for me that would be awesome!!

Hi. Welcome to the forum.

I do think.nearly all of your questions have been discussed extensively in past threads on blackjack, counting, and general play. I suggest you do some archive searching here, if you haven't already, since you refer to other forums, and specifically look at Romes' 3 part article on blackjack counting A to Z.

I think 1 on 1 vs. full table depends on your objectivesite and how much heat you're willing to attract. Full table plays slower, but other people take attention off you and can eat bad cards. It kind of depends on the situation.

There are definite points when your best value is spreading to 2 hands, and it's largely been quantified. That's one you should check archives here for, as it again depends on your count system, your spread, the amount of heat, etc.

I'll let the others answer as they will. I'm not a counter, and they can give better info.

Thanks so much, BeachBum. Really appreciate it.
I'll explore more, particularly in reference to spreading to multiple hands, and definitely take a look at Romes' A to Z.

"These forums seem to encourage 1 on 1 play. Something I have yet to do. Does anyone have any idea about how many more rounds per hour most dealers can pitch with a single player at the table versus three or four?"

It depends on the shuffle procedure and how fast you play. The upper limit is around 300 rounds per hour for heads up play, with a very fast dealer and an enlightened shuffle procedure. A crowded table with sidebets can drop to 50 rounds per hour. 200 rounds per hour heads up is relatively common, if you can and do play instantly. So you will earn usually around 3 to 4 times as much money per hour playing heads up vs playing full.


"
2. The math is in favor of two $300 hands instead of one $400 hand. Significantly less ROR. Is there a time when you definitely want to split to two or three hands? Surely that can attract heat... Any input on how to do this and whether it's worth it or not?"

Always play two hands, unless the count gets really negative.


"4. Obviously playing nights/weekends is going to allow for bigger crowds and bigger games. Playing during the day, I fear, equates to fewer distractions for both you and the staff meaning more individualized attention. Do you guys like to play at any particular time?
"

Off peak times are best, early morning or when the table games are opening / closing.



"5. The sims tell us what our ROR is on a collective bankroll and what our betting units/spreads should look like. What percentage of your bankroll do you typically bring on a single trip?"

As much as is practical. 30 x your max bet is my general rule of thumb but I don't mind starting a session with even just 10 max bets if I can reload from a nearby ATM or bank.


Don't tip.

Quote: AP2018

Lots of questions and I'm sure there are so many more that are escaping my memory!
If you guys could tackle any of these questions for me that would be awesome!!

Hi,
Welcome to the forum,
As suggested, locate and read up on Romes' A-Z articles.
Then locate and trawl through the posts of Stabworld and Zenking.
They aspired to be professional card counters. It didn't exactly work out.

I seem to win with a zero or negative count and lose with a positive count. My luck must be polar opposite.

Quote: AP2018

<snip>6. We know the dealers are the casinos first line of defense and being courteous is stressed repeatedly in these forums. But what does this mean? How often should I tip and how much?<snip>

AP2018,

Welcome to the forum!

I posted a guide to "tipping for longevity" on another site. Rather than reproduce the whole post, I'll simply provide a link:

https://www.blackjacktheforum.com/showthread.php?30714-Tipping-Psychology-vs-EV&p=168070#post168070

Hope this helps!

Dog Hand

I'd probably tip 0.2%, or $1 for every $500 I was ahead.

I've seen some videos of this one card counter who won $200K+ cash playing Blackjack one weekend. Then he got banned from a chain of casinos in one letter. I don't know why this guy was winning. He'd buy-in for $300 and go table hopping with crazy bets and a lot of card prognostication. I see no strategy there, just insane luck, and no foundation for winning. He was very foul-mouthed so that's an easy reason to ban him regardless of his winnings. I just think it shows the sorry state of casinos who can't stand a winner. If he won $200 he could get kicked out because casinos can't handle any winner whatsoever.

Hey AP2018, and welcome to the forums. Blackjack seems a topic beaten in to the ground numerous times on here, but it's always fun to discuss as it's a game I've found that you can always learn something new. If you want a little read on the topic (don't we always want to read every piece and part when studying blackjack) feel free to check out the 3 articles I created that are hosted on this very site in the articles section:

https://wizardofvegas.com/articles/A-to-Z-Counting-Cards-in-Blackjack/
https://wizardofvegas.com/articles/A-to-Z-Counting-Cards-In-Blackjack-2/
https://wizardofvegas.com/articles/A-to-Z-Counting-Cards-in-Blackjack-3/

I'll take your questions one at a time and give you my honest opinion/advice. I haven't looked at others in the thread, so if I repeat some information, forgive me.

Quote: AP2018

1. What do you consider full-time? How much time do you spend at the tables and how much time traveling? How much time killing time at the casino looking for a new pit or waiting for heat to mellow out? More or less curious what a typical session looks like from when you walk in the casino until you walk out.

A full time counters hours could vary wildly. I wouldn't focus on what others are full time and more so focus on getting to your N0, making your hourly EV, and making enough money to do what you want/need and support yourself (assuming full time means professionally). If you're 'really' looking for some numbers, I'd imagine you'd want to try to get 30-40 hours of table time per week, which is going to come with more hours of travel, scouting, etc, but that's all going to depend on where you are. If you're in Vegas maybe you could cut down on some travel time by just hopping from one casino to the next. If you're in like PA you're going to have to drive from place to place and spend more time on the road for less casinos. Again, this is just maybe an 'average' and some pros might get more like 50-60 hours of table time per week, while others might only get 20 hours or so. It also depends a lot on your average bet... a $5 counter ($5-$100) can play 100 hours per week and more than likely not get a ton of heat, where as a $100 counter could get less time due to getting more scrutiny at that level.

Quote: AP2018

2. I saw a couple of forums about the pros/cons of player's cards/rewards cards. Do you use one at every casino you visit? Or just one or two?

Again, a lot of factors, but in general if your name is clean, you don't want to make it in to the databases, and you want to work in casinos AP'ing professionally then I'd avoid players cards for the most part. There may be other opportunities down the road with players cards rather than get the free room and occasional buffet. Ultimately though it's up to you. If you find value in having a players card and you think that value outweighs the risk, then by all means get one and play with it.

Quote: AP2018

3. How many casinos are in your circuit? Living in the Mid-West, the Ohio/Indiana casinos are relatively close together (Chicago, Louisville, Cincinnati, Columbus, Cleveland) and the same could be said for the Baltimore/AC/D.C./Philly area. Florida too. No one would want to visit all of them in a single weekend but you could easily target one city every weekend of the month. Is it necessary to play at 10+ casinos to avoid heat or is 4 or 5 sufficient?

Again, this all is situational. Are you betting $5-$100, or are you a black chip player? The higher up you play more than likely the more casinos you'll need in your rotation to spread your play around. Are you going to attempt to play a camp out strategy, or are you going to be more hit and run? Most pro's last for years in blackjack going under the radar by playing a bit more hit and run and having a huge rotation of casinos. Either way you're more than likely going to get backed off / barred over time. It's up to you whether or not you want to accept that and play harder, or try to skirt the system for a while. BOTH have merits and drawbacks, so at the end of the day you need to evaluate the EV of how you play (not $ at the table, but how long can you last, how long do you want to last, do you care about getting barred, etc, etc).

Quote: AP2018

WHAT THE BOOKS DONT TELL YOU

1. These forums seem to encourage 1 on 1 play. Something I have yet to do. Does anyone have any idea about how many more rounds per hour most dealers can pitch with a single player at the table versus three or four?

Usually with a moderately full table on average you could get like 80 hands per hour. Heads up you can absolutely get more hands per hour, over 100 and pending the speed of the dealer upwards of 150+ or so wouldn't be all that unheard of. The idea here is simple. If you make $X per hour in EV, that's usually based on an average number of hands per hour, NOT time itself. When you break down your EV you make $X per HAND. So if you're playing a table at 80 hands per hour your EV is $Y. If you play at a table with 160 hands per hour you EV is $2Y. You've effectively doubled your value simply by playing a faster game. No need to bet more to get more EV, or put in more hours to get more EV... you've simply found a better game. I'd assume for the more professional player number of hands per hour is a VERY important metric to consider.

Quote: AP2018

2. The math is in favor of two $300 hands instead of one $400 hand. Significantly less ROR. Is there a time when you definitely want to split to two or three hands? Surely that can attract heat... Any input on how to do this and whether it's worth it or not?

Situational pending casino. In Vegas for example spreading "horizontally" will definitely attract heat, however a lot of other plays I played (when I played lower steaks) they would FREAK if you bet over $100 on 1 spot, but they didn't care AT ALL if you bet 2x$90. You have to learn casinos tolerances and find the best way to get the money out per place, unless you're traveling a ton, then you should just go with the best EV (usually 2 hands, don't ever go over 3 hands - read Wong's book if you haven't already). I'd promote your spread going to 2 hands on TC +2 or higher. TC +3 is the most 'bang for your buck' so this is where I used to spread to two hands to help get more money on the table while not piling up 1 tower of chips or too much (checks play) on 1 spot.

Quote: AP2018

3. I love the forums on cheap cover. So many creative ways to disguise your strategy. Does anyone have any advice on how to wong-in/wong-out without drawing attention? You can only step away from the shoe to respond to a text message while still watching the shoe like a hawk so many times... This is one of my biggest concerns when playing at higher stakes.

I talk about free cover and cover with a cost in Article 2. There are TONS and TONS of excuses for wonging in and out, but just from this question it sounds like you're playing more of a camp out strategy. You'll definitely run in to trouble if you start putting a lot more table hours in the same rotation of casinos, thus why you'll need a large rotation of them. One way I'm sure you know, but just for formalities... have a chip inventory. That way you don't waste time buying in and more importantly don't draw direct attention from the pit. Slide in and just put your chips in the betting circle.

Quote: AP2018

4. Obviously playing nights/weekends is going to allow for bigger crowds and bigger games. Playing during the day, I fear, equates to fewer distractions for both you and the staff meaning more individualized attention. Do you guys like to play at any particular time?

Ah, this double edged sword. Again, as most of your other questions, highly disputable to individual opinion and it depends on your playing style / casino tolerance. If you know you have a more tolerant casino you can play day shift where it's less crowded and camp out a bit more. If you have a sweaty casino then you might want to go when it's busier and hunt for more empty tables. This is why blackjack is a symphony of little things coming together. Casino tolerance and your play style will often change and what works at one casino may fail horribly at another. Thus you have to be adaptable. There is no 1 right answer for a lot of these questions.

Quote: AP2018

5. The sims tell us what our ROR is on a collective bankroll and what our betting units/spreads should look like. What percentage of your bankroll do you typically bring on a single trip?

A trip to 1 casino, or a trip to a round of casinos? If your play style is to duck out after exposing your max bet a few times, then you can tell how much you'll potentially need in total (4-5 max bets * number of casinos to visit) or so. Ultimately it's better to be over funded than under funded. Think about being at a table and getting unlucky on a few split/double hands with max bets. The count is still soaring high and you have no more money and have to just walk away and leave that game and great situation. It's an AWFUL feeling. Always have more than you think you'll need. For any trip "usually" 20-30 max bets isn't too bad, but again may depend on your play style a bit.

Quote: AP2018

6. We know the dealers are the casinos first line of defense and being courteous is stressed repeatedly in these forums. But what does this mean? How often should I tip and how much?

Tipping is a big debate. At least with blackjack tipping is less 'expected' so it seems during your play. I would usually tip at the end of a session so if I lost then clearly they wouldn't be expecting one. If I won, then perhaps I would tip a couple bucks or throw a $5 chip in. Remember though if you're playing high limits and win $10k throwing a $5 chip in might actually upset a dealer more than not tipping at all. AGAIN though, this might come down to your play style at the table... not your spread/etc... but are you trying to be a ghost? Silent and just in and out of there with the cash? Or are you trying to camp out a bit more, in which case I've found it exceedingly valuable to be very friendly, funny, talkative, etc. Just remember, the dealers are at work too... so if you are going to interact be friendly and try to all have a good time. If you can help them have fun at work, they'll definitely appreciate you playing at their table and be more lenient where they can be (oops I meant stay not hit, busy chatting with the players and gloss over some mistakes, not try to report you as a counter because they enjoy your company, etc, etc).

Feel free to ask any other questions that come to mind. I'm sorry a lot of my answer were "it depends" but in truth a lot of the questions you asked are a bit more situational and play style dependent than you may realize. If we ever met and chatted about the casinos you go to or how you play (spread and personality) then I'm sure I could direct some more precise advice/logistics.

Again, welcome to the forums.

Wow! So much more activity than last night. Thank you all for your input- particularly BJG123 for really getting the comments flowing in.


And a special thank you to Romes - I have seen your name pop up in several of these forums and I have the upmost respect for your experience and advice. Thank you for taking the time to answer each question in great detail. Even if most of the answers were, "it depends." I would much rather have an honest answer such as this then a biased response that may or may not work with my approach, style, or casinos. Once I have invested time putting more money on the tables and getting a better grasp for what works best for me personally, I will make sure to PM you. That is, of course, if that is okay with you!


I did, in fact, read through most of stabworld's post. I think I'm about 40 pages through of maybe 51. It hurt my heart reading through seeing that not just a few, but every single experienced AP advised against his decisions and yet he didn't listen. I am terrified to see how this ends up as he is up +15K in just a few months and still can't seem to wrap his head around the neg variance also associated with the game. Thank you for pointing that out, 1Dear and I will commit ZenKing to my agenda as well! Romes - per Babs' suggestion I am working my way through your A-Z as well. Lots of great, detailed material for any aspiring Counter. Thank you all!

Can you really make more counting in a year than just going to work?

Seems like a full time job has a higher EV.

Of course, ZenKing would probably say that’s what the man wants me to think.

Sort of related, I think I would approach it as something you’re going to do for about a year. Don’t worry about long term as much in regards to heat.

The rules are gradually getting worse, just make as much as you can in a year, get out, don’t worry about your long term cover.

Quote: AP2018

... Once I have invested time putting more money on the tables and getting a better grasp for what works best for me personally, I will make sure to PM you. That is, of course, if that is okay with you!

Of course. I've never not answered blackjack/counting questions to anyone, for free (only state this because there are some people whom want to be your 'paid mentor' when 99.54% of this information is FREE and available via the web).

Can you really make more counting in a year than just going to work?

I would hope so. I don't make an excessive amount of money working in the financial sector. I am fortunate to be young, single (whether that's a plus or not is debatable), and I don't have any kids. I don't have any student loans and I have been able to set aside a good sum for the past few years.

I would venture to guess a full-time counter should be able to yield a fairly comfortable "salary" with a $50K Bankroll. That's what the math says anyway. And that is assuming the player has a perfect game and favorable odds. We shall see. I love math and I love new challenges and I am comfortable with the money I have set aside for my future, my 2019 expenses, and my Blackjack bankroll. I would be absolutely devastated (I would hope most of us would be) if I were to somehow lose the entire 50K bankroll but it would not be life-threatening and certainly not something I can't recover from.

Fins - do you play? I can keep you apprised five or six months down the road if you want an update on the progress.

I'm married with 3 kids. That probably answers the question. I get bored pretty quickly nowadays at the casino actually. I think the reason I get bored is that I know all the odds, so it's not exciting. I go about 4-5 times a year, and purely for recreation. My favorite gambling activity is actually betting on horses. I think the reason is that you don't actually know the odds that you'll win. And, that you can bet $10 and win $650 (I did that Sunday night).

Seems like it'll be a fun experience for you. Definitely keep us updated.

An AP doesn't get paid vacations, has to pay for his health care, has no pension plan and owes taxes. Good luck finding a mortgage.
None of that is all that hard to overcome but needs to be considered. I'd suggest if you move to Vegas to count cards that you seriously consider take a job and do it part time . Get set, get some income and go from there.
Showing up, staying in weeklys and wandering the strip isn't a great plan.

Great points, Bill. Vegas has a lot to offer but wouldn't be my first choice by any means for long-term residency. We had some 120 degree days in July and dry heat or not that's a little intense for my New England blood!
Any particular cities you know of that are ideal for apbj? Even if it ends up being just one or two weeks out of the month? Or is Vegas still the ultimate go-to?
I was surprised how difficult it has been to find 3:2 tables on the strip!

First off good luck to you. Second if you have a 100k that you are willing to risk, there are many better places to put it than counting BJ but that is up to you. Hope you are aware of the roller coaster you are getting ready to ride, it would be great if you are lucky enough to win a while before the unavoidable bad streaks hit. Counting is the best way to play blackjack but as they say it take 70,000 and sometimes more hands to see any profit, and that is lots of work. When I play I spread 5-80 and have not had any heat and thats with a 10k bankroll, with your 100k if you spread 50-800 or a 1000, they will be on you for sure, or at least I would think so. GL

Okay, thanks for the input, Dwight!

Quote: dwight56

First off good luck to you. Second if you have a 100k that you are willing to risk, there are many better places to put it than counting BJ but that is up to you. Hope you are aware of the roller coaster you are getting ready to ride, it would be great if you are lucky enough to win a while before the unavoidable bad streaks hit. Counting is the best way to play blackjack but as they say it take 70,000 and sometimes more hands to see any profit, and that is lots of work. When I play I spread 5-80 and have not had any heat and thats with a 10k bankroll, with your 100k if you spread 50-800 or a 1000, they will be on you for sure, or at least I would think so. GL

Can you explain where are the better places to put your money and why?

Most counters aren't successful, so a savings account would be a better investment.
Successful counters gain an edge. If you have a long term edge of one percent, in the long run you get a one percent return.
For every $100,000 you wager, you should make $1,000. If it takes you a month to play $100,000 you may not think it's worth the effort. If you can play $100,00 dollars a week for a year, you can make $50,000 a year plus all the perks you get. Take note of all the ifs.
Learning to count isn't hard, but that is just one aspect of beating BJ long-term.

Quote: billryan

Most counters aren't successful, so a savings account would be a better investment.
Successful counters gain an edge. If you have a long term edge of one percent, in the long run you get a one percent return.
For every $100,000 you wager, you should make $1,000. If it takes you a month to play $100,000 you may not think it's worth the effort. If you can play $100,00 dollars a week for a year, you can make $50,000 a year plus all the perks you get. Take note of all the ifs.
Learning to count isn't hard, but that is just one aspect of beating BJ long-term.

Well said.

Quote: dwight56

" if you have a 100k that you are willing to risk, there are many better places to put it than counting BJ... as they say it take 70,000 and sometimes more hands to see any profit..."

70,000 hands (commonly referred to as 400 hours) of play is sort of the "magic number" supported by the math for the variance to essentially smooth out. 99.7% of the time you will see a profit over a 70,000 hand period. That is, of course, assuming you maintain the same approach and spread, count and play flawlessly, and stick to games with quality rules. The theoretical earnings for any disciplined, part-time, two-weekends-a-month counter matches the best performing money market accounts out there (and technically with less risk) and the numbers on full-time counting far exceeds that several times over. I imagine there are probably far fewer full-time counters in this world than these forums or Hollywood would lead us to believe but it is certainly a profitable opportunity for the right individual. It is said commonly in the Poker world and it is just as true in APBJ: It's a tough way to make any easy living.

There's no doubt this is often a rather mundane profession and the monotony of the basic strategies can be unbearable for many. But I think mid-stakes counting offers a degree of adventure and excitement that is found in very few professions. The rules are ever-changing, the game is constantly evolving, and your interactions with other players and staff are new each and every day. I have not been aggressively counting for very long and I have yet to put in more than 20 hours in a single week so it is certainly possible that in my naivety I am failing to realize the enjoyment fades around the six month mark. But these are the reasons I truly believe counting is a rare and fun experience!

I would say real estate, investment property, rental property, are all proven as good investments, stocks and bonds, or just an old fashioned cd, or find a honest financial advisor and say take this 100k and make me some money, your odds would be much better with any of these. those casinos were built and paid for by fools who thought they could beat them.

My advice is NOT to do another member doing now if you want a long and prosperous counting/AP career. That member, I am sure all other members know who I am referring to.

Just a ploppie
Playing their game
They think I can not win
Oh, what a shame.

Their chandeliers sparkle
motivating my play
But I don't let the glitter
get in my way

Slowly, but surely
One small piece at a time
The chandelier will be mine
to have and to shine.

Paraphrased from Angie Marshall.

Quote: AP2018

70,000 hands (commonly referred to as 400 hours)...

You think you're going to get 175 hands per hour for 400 hours?

This is a vast overestimation in my opinion, and one of the many reasons new counters fall short of their On Paper EV. Truly track your hands per hour at a table when you play, and you might be quite surprised.

Quote: Romes

You think you're going to get 175 hands per hour for 400 hours?

This is a vast overestimation in my opinion, and one of the many reasons new counters fall short of their On Paper EV. Truly track your hands per hour at a table when you play, and you might be quite surprised.

175 hands over four hours is more my speed, between bathroom and smoke breaks. Hopefully I'm getting credited for 250 or more.

Most main floor tables with significant (average) side bet action are running about 60 hands an hour if you track it. 60!

I think the 100 hand figure that gets thrown around is because all those books were written in the era when there wasn’t 2 side bets and a progressive on every table that needs a key and 3 minute wait whenever a dealer has to pay more than $9, pit supervisors understood that casinos make money from house edge/game speed and not having the dealer re-sort the green every third hand to make sure who has every green chip when they’re watching 8 tables, and dealers dealt 1-2 games instead of 7. To average over 100+, you have to play off hours, high limit, or find a way to multi-table for periods of time each of which can have their own unique challenges.

Quote: billryan

175 hands over four hours is more my speed, between bathroom and smoke breaks. Hopefully I'm getting credited for 250 or more.

I've seen counters quote 175+hand/hr on dozens of occasions. As a new counter, I have been surprised to find I can average upwards of 300 when it's really really slow and I play two hands from jump street. 6d and 8d low-stakes only.
I couldn't fathom clocking 175/hr playing any other game when it's busy or if you only spread laterally when the deck is hot. billryan can you even eclipse 100 when you're wonging?

You are misreading my post.

Ah. That I am. I understand what you're saying now.

I have read this somewhere and used it myself, gambling money is money set aside that you can afford to loose and will never need for any other thing. It is smart to only set aside 2% of your net worth, so if you have a net worth of 5 million then your 100k is fine, I am not that fortunate as I suppose most everyone in here isn't either, most are playing with 5-25k in hopes of turning it into 100k.

I'd venture to say playing with non-essential funds that represent ANY percentage of your net worth is the smart move so long as your ror is somewhere south of 0.2 %. Granted anyone playing nosebleed stakes are subject to much more scrutiny from the casinos so the parade may not last long but... we're talking about financial risk here, not risking our eligibility to play blackjack in the future.

Blackjack is a winning game if played correctly (correctly being the key quantifier.) There are dozens of threads greenlit by the Wizard that reinforce this theory. And I'm sure any of the APs reading this would agree.

Casinos know BJ can be beat and make it difficult on suspected counters. Most want to be counters either fail or get discouraged.
Not all.

The problem I often see are people looking for large 1-2% advantages when it is rarely feasible or extremely difficult. It is important to remember that even a tiny miniscule percentage of a lot of money is...a lot of money.

It is trivially easy to find a 1% advantage even in a mediocre game.

Quote: BlackjackGuy123

It is trivially easy to find a 1% advantage even in a mediocre game.

I agree. A 1-12 spread on a H17 DAS LS game with mediocre pen will yield you 1% Edge.
That's playing every single hand shoe open to shoe close.