Quote:billryan16 vs 10.

True.

Quote:Mission146Deleted

Interested in your deleted choice, Mission....

Mine would be a7 v 10, hit it and get a hard 16 and stand on TC 0 and higher. That leaves everyone completely puzzled.

Quote:ZenKinGIf surrwnder is offered, there's no one particular hand that is the worst. How about a thread alternative? What is the most interesting hand that makes everyone shake their heads?

Mine would be a7 v 10, hit it and get a hard 16 and stand on TC 0 and higher. That leaves everyone completely puzzled.

I don't know about shaking one's head, ZenKing, but I find this is an "interesting" hand:

Single deck, video blackjack, 6-card-charlie, hit a four-card soft 19 versus Ten.

Quote:allinriverkingI have a question for blackjack players. What do you believe is the worst starting hands to have in blackjack?

No surrender: 9-7 versus T

"I saved the table!"

Quote:allinriverkingInterested in your deleted choice, Mission....

I just said any non-Natural hand against a Dealer Natural. After I said that, I decided it might not qualify as a starting hand for your purposes because you never get to make a decision.

Although on, "No Peek," Blackjack, especially that in which any other bets are not returned, my point definitely holds. The only split that appears to be made against a dealer Ace or Ten is a player with a Pair of Aces, on any number of decks. In any event, all of your hands automatically will lose. That split is also only made against a dealer ten.

The only caveat is that not only does the dealer not peek, but sometimes, does not even take a hole card. The result is that the first card that completes the natural is drawn. Although, sometimes the dealer does take a hole card and just doesn't look at it...so all players would lose to the natural + doubles and splits. Should only ever Split A's against a Ten, though, and never double anything against A/10.

Quote:WizardTrue.

Actually, I believe that 16 vs A is worse than 16 vs. 10.

Also, a multi-card 16 is worse than a a two card 16, such as (5,5,5,A) vs 10.

Quote:billryanYou don't start with four cards. You start with two cards and a dealer card.

Okay. Here are the worst 10 starting hands (I believe). I assume 8 decks, the dealer hits a soft 17, and has already peeked, and that Double After Splitting is allowed.

16 (10-6) vs A: EV = - 54.05 %

16 (9-7) vs A: EV = - 53.95

16 (9-7) vs 10: EV = - 53.65

16 (10-6) vs 10: EV = - 53.60

17 (10-7) vs A: EV = - 51.62

17 (9-8) vs A: EV = - 51.27 %

15 (10-5) vs A: EV = - 50.89

15 (9-6) vs A: EV = - 50.82

16 (9-7) vs 9: EV = - 50.61

16 (10-6) vs 9: EV = - 50.57

Some might be surprised to see that a 17 vs A is weaker than a 15 vs A. This is due to "Hit a S17 rule." If the dealer stands on S17, then a 17 vs A is slighter better then a 15 vs A.

If DAS is not allowed, the 16 (8-8) vs. Ace is the fifth weakest hand with EV = -52.61.

Like 16 is soooo much worse than 15 and they were so sure the next card was a 6? They're definitely not counting or aware that standing on a multiple card 16 is sometimes better strategy than hitting. So I always found it humorous when I see this scenario.

I think it's just the Stigma that 16 is the absolute worst hand to start with and hitting 16 can only result in a loss!

Quote:billryanYou don't start with four cards. You start with two cards and a dealer card.

Of course, consistent with your statement above, it is equally as valid to consider hands before the dealer peeks at the downcard.

Again, assuming 8 decks, dealer hits S17, DAS and dealer has not yet peeked, I believe these are the worst 10 starting hands

16 (9-7) vs A: EV = - 66.50 %

16 (10-6) vs A: EV = - 66.49%

17 (9-8) vs A: EV = - 66.37

17 (10-7) vs A: EV = - 66.36

15 (9-6) vs A: EV = - 66.06

15 (10-5) vs A: EV = - 65.99 %

15 (8-7) vs A: EV = - 65.77%

14 (7-7) vs A: EV = - 63.80

14 (8-6) vs A: EV = - 63.42

14 (9-5) vs A: EV = - 63.34

All of the 10 worst hands are versus a dealer ace. In fact, 13 vs A is worse than 16 vs 10.

Get ready for a wild list!

16 (9-7) vs 10: EV = - 51.20 %

15 (9-6) vs 10: EV = - 50.98 %

14 (7-7) vs 10: EV = - 50.97 %

16 (10-6) vs A: EV = - 50.88 %

16 (10-6) vs 10: EV = - 50.69 %

15 (10-5) vs 10: EV = - 50.11 %

15 (10-5) vs A: EV = - 49.87 %

15 (9-6) vs A: EV = - 49.59 %

16 (9-7) vs A: EV = - 49.55

14 (7-7) vs A: EV = - 49.47

Here, the two variations of "16 vs 10" are the worst hand and the fifth worst hand.

15 (9-6) vs 10 is the 2nd worst hand, because with a 15 the player would really like to get a 6 when he hits, and one of the four sixes is already in player's hand.

The 3rd worst hand in this list is the dreadful "7-7 pair vs 10" -a hand which is a hot mess. Here, the player's best move is to stand rather than hit. The two sevens in the players hand greatly reduce the chance of player getting a 7 if he hits - and player would really like to get a 7 and make 21 to beat the dealer's likely 20 (whenever the dealer's down card is another 10).

Indeed, if you average over all 16s (both 10-6 and 9-7), then 16 vs 10 has an EV of -50.79% and 16 vs A has an EV = -50.61; seemingly, making 16 vs 10 the worst hand in traditional single deck BJ.

But, not so fast! In a traditional BJ strategy table, a pair of 7s vs 10 would get its own square -and its EV = -50.97% making it even worse than 16 vs 10 and qualifying it as the single worst "hand" in Single Deck Blackjack. So, maybe its a matter of definition.

Quote:BedWetterBetterI always find it funny when someone will hit a Hard 15 without hesitation and the second they get an Ace, they wave it off as if they've got no shot to win by taking a hit?

Like 16 is soooo much worse than 15 and they were so sure the next card was a 6? They're definitely not counting or aware that standing on a multiple card 16 is sometimes better strategy than hitting. So I always found it humorous when I see this scenario.

I think it's just the Stigma that 16 is the absolute worst hand to start with and hitting 16 can only result in a loss!

Well, I'm about to surprise you.

When player hits a T-5 vs 10 and gets an ace he has a 16 (T-5-A) vs 10. With 8 decks, here are the numbers: Hit: EV = - 54.10% and Stand = - 53.99%. So, Stand is indeed the right move. This is because the 5 in the player's hand is exactly what the player would like to get when hitting a 16 - and the absence of even one 5 from the 8-deck shoe makes a difference. However, if the original two-card 15 was a 9-6 and you draw an Ace to make 16, HIT is the best option. For "16(9-6-A) vs 10" Hit = - 53.66% and Stand = - 54.02%

In single deck BJ, it is even more striking.

16 (T-5-A) vs 10: Hit = - 54.96% and Stand = - 53.60%. So Stand, Baby, Stand!

A two card 16 vs a dealer ten has an EV of -.53, not .51.

https://www.888casino.com/blog/blackjack-strategy/the-best-and-worst-starting-hands-in-blackjack

Quote:bobbartopI don't know about shaking one's head, ZenKing, but I find this is an "interesting" hand:

Single deck, video blackjack, 6-card-charlie, hit a four-card soft 19 versus Ten.

You want an interesting result. Hit a six card Charlie on a single deck VBJ machine.

Quote:billryanI'm not sure why you are stipulating the DJ has no BJ. We don't know that. All we can do is compare the EV of our two cards and the dealers upcard. Anytime the dealers upcard is a ten, there is a possibility of him having a BJ.

I did it two ways. Scroll up three posts: I looked at the EV's of all hands assuming the dealer has not yet checked for BJ when dealer has a 10 or A upcard. The worst hand for player was 9-7 vs A.

Scroll up 5 posts: This addresses the worst 10 hands after dealer has peeked and does not have a BJ. These EVs apply to the traditional way of looking at BJ strategy - with the obvious caveat that the worst hands after dealer peeks are really "Anything vs. BJ."

Quote:gordonm888Bill Ryan did say that 16 vs 10 was the worst hand starting hand in BJ and the Wizard agreed with him. To be fair to the both of them, ....

To be fair, I read the question as "worst starting hands", plural, so I did not think Billryan said it was the worst hand, just one of the worst hands. And then you came along and added 16 vs Ace. Altogether, excellent thread so far. A fun read.

Quote:billryanYou want an interesting result. Hit a six card Charlie on a single deck VBJ machine.

If I had known this was to develop into such a good thread as it was with yours and Gordon's posts, I would not have contaminated it with something different, just kinda responding to ZenKing.

Still, though, I don't follow you on this particular comment. Care to explain it for simple me? Be patient.

Quote:gordonm888

But, not so fast! In a traditional BJ strategy table, a pair of 7s vs 10 would get its own square -and its EV = -50.97% making it even worse than 16 vs 10 and qualifying it as the single worst "hand" in Single Deck Blackjack. So, maybe its a matter of definition.

Appreciate all your additions to this thread. Reading your comments here regarding 77 v T, it reminded me of one of my favorite discussions, the "Key Card Concept" that Sklansky dedicated a chapter to in his 'Getting The Best of It'. Some pretty cool reading.

On these machines, an 8,3, ten is 21 and your hand is done. An 8,2,Ace is also 21 but as it is a soft hand you need to hit stand before the game progresses.

When you get a six card( non hard 21) Charlie, it appears like you have an option to take a seventh card. Hit the hit button and see what happens. Don't say you weren't warned.

Quote:billryanVBJ machines say a six card Charlie is a winner, but the game doesn't automatically end with your six cards.

On these machines, an 8,3, ten is 21 and your hand is done. An 8,2,Ace is also 21 but as it is a soft hand you need to hit stand before the game progresses.

When you get a six card( non hard 21) Charlie, it appears like you have an option to take a seventh card. Hit the hit button and see what happens. Don't say you weren't warned.

Ok, I see. Thanks. But we're talking apples and oranges, and on the apples that I've played, six cards is a winner, period, game over. Primarily IGT Game Kings.

Surprisingly, there's an exception. A 12vs2 or 12vs3 are somewhat worse than a 12vs7. Therefore, when you have a 12, you should prefer to face a 7 rather than a 2 or a 3.

Hit 12vs2 EV = - 25.26 %

Hit 12vs3 EV = - 23.23

Stand 12vs4 EV = - 20.59

Stand 12vs5 EV = - 16.29

Stand 12vs6 EV = - 12.14

Hit 12vs7 EV = - 21.27 %

Hit 12vs8 EV = - 27.19

Hit 12vs9 EV = - 34.05

Hit 12vs10 EV = - 37.70

Hit 12vsA EV = - 38.36

Quote:Lucca3927When the dealer deals himself a Blackjack.

Nice.....

Quote:allinriverkingOnly if there was a variation of Blackjack, in which a player will never have a starting hand of 12 to 16. And this game would have a player advantage of almost 26% on the blackjack bet. Although there would be a additional bet that would be a forced bet of equal amount, with a house advantage of almost 32%, given a overall house advantage of 3.0%. Oh and throw in a sidebet with a 4.72% h.e., with a hit frequency of around just under 5%....

How about we play a game where you get no cards, but have 18 every hand. I follow dealer rules and hit all 16s and soft 17s. Sound good? Sign up now and I'll throw in an extra 1/2 point, so any hand I have 19 or less you win.

Quote:billryanHow about we play a game where you get no cards, but have 18 every hand. I follow dealer rules and hit all 16s and soft 17s. Sound good? Sign up now and I'll throw in an extra 1/2 point, so any hand I have 19 or less you win.

Doesn't sound very fun, I don't get any decisions...

Quote:gordonm888Yes. That is a basic concept of Blackjack that is important to understand. Playing a stiff hand, 12-16, is always an unfavorable situation and dealer cards in the range of 7-A are more formidable than small cards in the range of 2-6.

Surprisingly, there's an exception. A 12vs2 or 12vs3 are somewhat worse than a 12vs7. Therefore, when you have a 12, you should prefer to face a 7 rather than a 2 or a 3.

Hit 12vs2 EV = - 25.26 %

Hit 12vs3 EV = - 23.23

Stand 12vs4 EV = - 20.59

Stand 12vs5 EV = - 16.29

Stand 12vs6 EV = - 12.14

Hit 12vs7 EV = - 21.27 %

Hit 12vs8 EV = - 27.19

Hit 12vs9 EV = - 34.05

Hit 12vs10 EV = - 37.70

Hit 12vsA EV = - 38.36

In fact, if you had a choice of whether the dealer would start with a 2 or a 7 every time, it'd be better to pick the 7. It's true that with a 7 the dealer would be less likely to bust than with a 2, but the odds of the dealer making a really good hand are lower (since a ten in the hole would give the house a pat 17).

Quote:allinriverkingDoesn't sound very fun, I don't get any decisions...

If you want to have fun, play video games. If you want to play BJ, pick up a book or six.