How are table limits set?

I see table limits being adjusted, always upward, during the course of a day. Usually table limits are lowest when the table is opened and fresh cards are washed. Over time the limit gets raised.

There does not seem to be any rhyme or reason to timing, other than what "feels like" increased business, which makes sense. Limits are higher on weekends, lower in the middle of the night.

I've seen decisions that sound like they are being made in the pit itself, or sometimes coming down from on-high somewhere, $10 tables are at a premium all the time, but even when most tables are $25 or higher, I can often find just one $10 table, somewhere, if I walk around long enough to hunt one up. That implies that there is no globally implemented policy, if there is somewhere out there a single, low-limit table among perhaps a fifty or sixty others.

How are table limits set? Who sets them?

You named a number of factors in your own post, most notably the date and time of the action. You can find a $5 blackjack table at 2 AM Wednesday morning but not during the weekends or evening. Sometimes, rather than raise a table limit, they'll open unused tables. They won't raise the limits on you while you're sitting there though. You'll be "grandfathered" in at the old lower table limit until you cash out so keep the seat!

It's really just a product of simple supply and demand. I do think it's the pit boss who decides on the when and where's of it.

One sneaky trick that I've seen them do over the last year or two is to keep a few 6/5 tables open at lower limits and make you play at a higher table minimum for a 3/2 game. I've only seen this trick at the MGM but I'm sure all the other biggies on the Strip play the same trick. I guess you could call it a poor man's blackjack tax.

It can be rather whimsical or atleast appear that way.

Often different personnel make the decisions. Crowds ebb and flow, dealers at empty tables can be costly but so too can closing a table and then having players show up.

Players love low limits but "suits" do not. A pit boss will often change limits to suit current conditions despite managerial memos. The casino knows 6:5 is better for them than 3:2 but a full table is always better than a half full one. It is just that 'full' has different meanings to the various people involved.

Quote: Lucca3927

One sneaky trick that I've seen them do over the last year or two is to keep a few 6/5 tables open at lower limits and make you play at a higher table minimum for a 3/2 game. I've only seen this trick at the MGM but I'm sure all the other biggies on the Strip play the same trick. I guess you could call it a poor man's blackjack tax.

CET properties in Atlantic City also employ this trick. They have Bally's Wild West, which is generally the hang out for the younger crowd of 21-24 year olds who are looking for low limits and not looking at low payouts! All the BJ tables are 6:5 and it is almost always $10 limits every day. Harrah's AC does this also, but if you walk towards the end of the BJ tables there are 3:2 tables at $15 limits. Caesar's decided to put their 6:5 tables on a different floor and usually offer $10 limits, while the downstairs area predominantly has $25 tables with 3:2 .

Just another reason to hate on CET.

Quote: Lucca3927

... They won't raise the limits on you while you're sitting there though. You'll be "grandfathered" in at the old lower table limit until you cash out so keep the seat! ...

That depends on the casino. Mohegan Sun operates as you describe, but you are grandfathered for only one spot. If you play more than one hand the additional hands are subject to the new table limit. Foxwoods will announce a table limit change effective after the current shoe. You can then either play subject to the increased table minimum or leave.

That is one thing about the Seminoles in Florida.
They usually keep the 6:5 and 3:2 physically separated as well as financially separated. People make their choices and that is it. The low level table is there, its 6:5 and its handicapped accessible. Its a ploppy paradise, as is everything near it.

The 3:2 section is an aisle away and its obvious that staffing policies, cocktail policies and betting limit policies are different.

Want your own table? Just ask... and keep betting three blacks or more....

Have any complaints? They just steer you to the pit you want but won't ever make changes that a player wants.

I got a clear reasonable explanation for why one table didn't have its limits adjusted upwards at prime time on a Saturday night recently.

The table, every other time I saw it, was at 25$, even during off-periods, but was 15$ this time. When I finally noticed and commented on it to the floor manager, he explained that it was a 6 seat table with 5 seats occupied, of which 4 of them would've left if they bumped it to 25$ and if they grandfathered them in, then there was no point since they routinely stayed for hours. The fifth person had evidently developed a reputation for running off whenever cards were changed or there was an exodus at the table, so kicking up the limit would've emptied the table, and who knows how long it would've taken to refill to people doing a combined ~150 or more. They made the call that it was worth more to just leave it at the lower limit.

I have never seen a 6/5 table in AC, though as somebody said there are some at CET properties I hear. I think I heard Bally's added a 5 dollar BJ Party Pit geared for younger players, but all the rules are terrible (6/5, 8 decks, hit on soft 17, etc....), it is basically just to suck up money from young college kids drinking and making some random bets, I have yet to see this addition. I avoid CET properties.

But, I have noticed where I usually play 25 tables and up are where the rules get better (dealer stands on soft 17, most tables under 25 dealer hits soft 17, and some various better splitting and resplitting options, and usually less decks, 4 as opposed to 6-8). Generally the rule is , the higher the limit, the lower the House Edge.

I was with a friend recently who insisted on playing only at 10-15 dollar tables, I tried to explain to him, how much less money he would lose from his bankroll if he would join me at a 25 table, but he was simply not having it or understanding it, some people prefer saving a few dollars a bet in exchange for a pretty significant house edge.

Most Casinos where I am from, and it sounds like Vegas is similar 25 minimum tables is the biggest cutoff in amount chiseled off of house edge.

The other plus of higher limit tables is better comps and faster drinks, which if you calculate into the value, can lower the house edge even further, generally the higher limit tables get much faster drink service (as well as more likely for giving other things like giving you complimentary cigarettes if you smoke, randomly handing you restaurant vouchers etc....) So depending on total value there is a lot you can calculate into when choosing a BJ table based on the experience you want.

Quote: BedWetterBetter

CET properties in Atlantic City also employ this trick. They have Bally's Wild West, which is generally the hang out for the younger crowd of 21-24 year olds who are looking for low limits and not looking at low payouts! All the BJ tables are 6:5 and it is almost always $10 limits every day. Harrah's AC does this also, but if you walk towards the end of the BJ tables there are 3:2 tables at $15 limits. Caesar's decided to put their 6:5 tables on a different floor and usually offer $10 limits, while the downstairs area predominantly has $25 tables with 3:2 .

Just another reason to hate on CET.

It's not a trick, just business. They have a certain amount they need to make per table. If you bet more they can take a smaller % of what you bet. Same logic applies for slots, the higher the denomination usually the higher the return rate. Keep in mind they need to make money, and The vegas strip is the single most expensive piece of real estate in the world

Quote: Gandler

The other plus of higher limit tables is better comps and faster drinks, which if you calculate into the value, can lower the house edge even further, generally the higher limit tables get much faster drink service (as well as more likely for giving other things like giving you complimentary cigarettes if you smoke, randomly handing you restaurant vouchers etc....) So depending on total value there is a lot you can calculate into when choosing a BJ table based on the experience you want.

I don't think that, from a player's standpoint, it's such a great deal. I've never seen a black table that had people standing 3 deep fighting to get a seat. Higher limit tables have fewer players which leads to more hands being dealt per time frame. The comps might be higher because you're betting higher at the same EV, but the faster play will eat up your bankroll faster.

Quote: Lucca3927

I don't think that, from a player's standpoint, it's such a great deal. I've never seen a black table that had people standing 3 deep fighting to get a seat. Higher limit tables have fewer players which leads to more hands being dealt per time frame. The comps might be higher because you're betting higher at the same EV, but the faster play will eat up your bankroll faster.

On most nights 25 Tables get pretty full. Maybe higher tables are a little slower. Also, I would argue that in some cases they can be slower, because some people will take their time if they have a large bet, or some people (superstitious types) will demand that the show be reshuffled which takes a lot of time, and at higher tables dealers are more likely to allow this. I understand your point, but if your can fill a 25 table or fill a 15 dollar table, there is no doubt which one is better.

But, the EV is not the same if a 25 table has drastically better rules than a 15 dollar table.
For example using the Wizard's Calculator the 15 dollar table from that night had a house edge of 0.7648%% The 25 Dollar table there has a house edge of 0.38699%%
Its almost twice as good. And again, that does not factor comps, faster drinks, attention, or other perks from being at higher tables that can also lead to total value of a visit.