Shuffle master truth solved
Quote: BjproWhy would I get banned dalex? Is this a house sponsored website? Or is just not sharing your opinion good enough to ban someone?can I post pictures here???? Anyway way to post pics???
I’m going to PM you my email. Send me an email with a pic of your shuffler and I’ll post it here for you.
It's my understanding (which can be wrong) that the patent clauses that refer to the predetermined sequence is what secures the ability for a shuffler that can put the cards back in order to be "killed".
Keep in mind, the patent doesn't really matter to GLI. GLI is certifying that the machines produces randomizing shuffles and for the MD3 a sort feature and I believe they would look for and find anything programmed within the shuffler that would produce another function. I don't recall exactly how it works, but the chip on the inside has or gets some sort of digital signature. When the casino receives the shuffler, the chip is read by a device and if it doesn't match the approved digital signature it can't be used. I remember being delayed a few times when signatures didn't match up correctly. These types of things, especially items with chips/software are highly regulated and tracked by both in house regulators and State Department of Gaming offices.
I have seen and used dozens and dozens of MD3's. There is no hidden switch. SHFL offers no alternate software to be able to turn on and off a special shuffle. There is ZERO percent chance weekend or holiday shuffles exist.
It's a PDF file. Just choose the slow download. It's a small file.
GLI Shuffler Certification Guide
ZCore13
Quote: Zcore13Just choose the slow download. It's a small file.
Ummm... When I do the slow download, I get a "plain text document" file with a length of Zero bytes.
Quote: BjproZcore I understand your thought process of everything is fair and balanced but if a casino chooses to use a shuffle master and most do where is the cost advantage? A good dealer can match hand shuffle times with loading and unloading the shuffle master. A casino is in no real fear from a state gaming control they pay there 1 million dollar fine and it’s done but how many hundreds of millions did the make ? State wins also in tax revenue. If you look at gaming control websites state by state you will see millions of dollars in fines for (suspicious casino activity) tribe casinos are less regulated .i agree there is no magic switch it is done through software time/date s ,wireless communications. There still are casinos where you can go have a fare game of blackjack (not many) and maybe this is where you work , several of the casinos I have gone to for years even the dealers have noticed something also , look at tip revenue decline in dealers in a 5 year window. Pissed off customers don’t tip well . Everyone has a bad day of gaming even a bad month but when it continues for years of mathematically impossible odds for a random shuffle to produce a 90% win rate for the house constantly ,of course every thing looks good on paper because it has to but big business and government have a history of doing the opposite of what they say example of big business , Volkswagen, Tyco inc , Siemens now a government example ,fast and furious and irs scandal. All these have one thing in common ,they all looked good on paper
You are wrong on just about everything you said.
1. There is no way to do a six deck hand shuffle faster than loadind and unloading a machine. You are talking a couple minutes savings per shuffle. That couple minutes per shuffle multiplied into hours/days/months is thousands and thousands of dollars per table. Then multiply that by 20 or 30 or 40 tables. I paid less than $200 per month per machine for MD2 leases. That gets paid for in the first hour of the first day of every month.
2. Some Tribal Casinos are less regulated and others are more. The two Tribal Casinos I have worked at are VERY meticulous in not only following the strict State Compact laws, but one of them always exceeded the minimum standards on every requirement. Your generalization comes with minimal to no knowledge on what really happens behind the scenes.
3. Do not rely on dealer opinions for fact based information. Most have absolutely no insight, or real care to have any, into anything other than dealing the cards and going home. Dealer tips go down at some places because of increased completion, poor customer service by the dealers or casino, additional side bets that take away the dollar chips and other factors. Dealers will also blame everything except themselves. And trust me, dealer tips are pretty damn good at many, many casinos.
I don't think you understand how the math works. First, you can't win over the long haul without being a very good card counter. Too many hands to overcome the house advantage. With a house advantage of between 0.7% and 2% depending on play, your going to average losing $30 or so every hour, every day on just a $10 average bet. The last casino I worked at help over 20% in blackjack. All that means is for every $100 bought in, players left with $80. Pretty common at a locals casino.
Your view is biased, incomplete, has no knowledge or facts to back it up and flat out wrong.
ZCore13
I did a reverse image search on the photos, and they are identical to this eBay listing which sold for $6k, not $10.3k.
I asked for photos with his username written on an index card but haven't gotten a reply.
Quote: gamerfreakBjpro sent me photos of a shufflemaster, and a random stack of black chips.
I did a reverse image search on the photos, and they are identical to this eBay listing which sold for $6k, not $10.3k.
I asked for photos with his username written on an index card but haven't gotten a reply.
That's crazy. He had most of us convinced here....
Quote: SM777Quote: gamerfreakBjpro sent me photos of a shufflemaster, and a random stack of black chips.
I did a reverse image search on the photos, and they are identical to this eBay listing which sold for $6k, not $10.3k.
I asked for photos with his username written on an index card but haven't gotten a reply.
That's crazy. He had most of us convinced here.... [/q
Lol
ZCore13]I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
Thanks for being diligent and thorough enough to do a google image search. That + authentication (signing a piece of paper/etc) are some of the quickest ways to verify. He should be able to just take a video and upload it on youtube of him circling the machine saying "this is bjpro, and here's the 'beat mode' setting..." while clicking in the settings to show us. That's all it would take and he'd blow this whole thing out of the water. Something tells me though that even though it's that simple, that won't happen =/...Quote: gamerfreakBjpro sent me photos of a shufflemaster, and a random stack of black chips.
I did a reverse image search on the photos, and they are identical to this eBay listing which sold for $6k, not $10.3k.
I asked for photos with his username written on an index card but haven't gotten a reply.
Quote: not SM777That's crazy. He had none of us convinced here....
There. I fixed it for you.
I think we were all pretty polite considering his incredible non-credible claims
Observations.
1. The standard does not explicitly state that the shuffler may not have a "non-random predetermined sequence" mode in addition to a randomized mode (which may be a random predetermined sequence mode.). Given that multiple patents have been issued for shufflers that can shift between random and non-random predetermined sequences, this absence of any mention of alternative non-random modes of operation raises a red flag with me. The standard seems to explicitly guard against a lot of "customer hacking" threats that are pretty damn unlikely, but does not address this far more likely threat to "fairness to the player."
2. In section 1.51, a card shuffler is defined in this way (bold font added):
a)Card Shuffler. A device that is designed, at a minimum to have the capability to randomly rearrange a deck or decks of playing cards to eradicate any patterns introduced to the playing cards upon initial use or by prior game play.
The phrase "at a minimum" may simply be in this sentence to acknowledge that there is a potential for additional shuffler functionality, such as tracking and recording the sequence of cards for game security purposes. But it does seem to keep the door open for an additional capability to non-randomly rearrange a deck or decks of playing cards.
3. The GL13 standard states its purposes, among them is this: "To distinguish between local public policy and laboratory criteria. At GLI, we believe that it is up to each local jurisdiction to set their own public policy with respect to gaming."
This can conceivably be interpreted as meaning that "GLI will test the equipment to meet technical standards as set out here, but larger issues of what is fair or unfair to the gaming customer fall into the realm of public policy and is not our business."
4. In order to safeguard against non-random predetermined sequences of cards, I believe it would be necessary for a testing laboratory to go beyond functional testing and to be able to review the control language software program on the chip.
Good news here. Section 2.4, titled Control Program Requirements, requires that the shuffler device must "Contain sufficient information to identify the software and revision level of the information stored on the device."
Additionally, here is the text of subsection 2.4.4 on independent verification of the software on the controller chip:
2.4.4 Independent Control Program Verification
The device shall have the ability to allow for an independent integrity check of the device’s software from an outside source and is required for all control programs that may affect the integrity of the device. This must be accomplished by being authenticated by a third-party device, which may be embedded within the shuffler software, by having an interface port for a third-party device to authenticate the media, or by allowing for removal of the media such that it can be verified externally. This integrity check will provide a means for field verification of the software to identify and validate the program. The test laboratory, prior to device approval, shall approve the integrity check method.
I conclude from this that:
a). GLI does inspect the software on the chip prior to device approval, and knows the version and revision number of the software. GLI is almost certain to know the functionality of the software on any shuffler it inspects.
b). GLI requires that the integrity of the software on the controller chip can be verified by some type of third party device that plugs into the device. (I imagine that they may offer such a third party device to gaming commissions.) So, assuming a gaming commission actually conducts periodic tests of the shufflers, this would make subsequent alteration of the software very difficult and unlikely.
********************************
I think that reading this standard helps to eliminate some "game-rigging" scenarios in my mind. However, there still seems to be a loophole here in which there is a possibility that GLI-inspected shufflers can have a functional mode for dealing non-random predetermined sequences of cards - because the GLI standard does not address this nor make it part of a criteria for certification of a shuffler. An industry strategy of "different shufflers for different customers (in different localities with different policies)" might be part of this. In other words, the reality of the shuffler business may be that customers in South America or Asia or certain Indian reservations might have different 'policies' than customers in Nevada, New Jersey and Pennsylvania, for example. I personally just don't know and would value feedback from other forum members.
Quote: gordonm888...An industry strategy of "different shufflers for different customers (in different localities with different policies)" might be part of this. In other words, the reality of the shuffler business may be that customers in South America or Asia or certain Indian reservations might have different 'policies' than customers in Nevada, New Jersey and Pennsylvania, for example.
I appreciate your addition to this thread - background, research, and conclusions.
I only find one issue, and that is the statute in Nevada requiring game makers who sell to Nevada casinos to make ALL of their games compliant with Nevada law regardless of where they are sold.
However, this does not necessarily contradict your conclusions. The existence of a patent does not directly indicate the existence of the product that it describes. Just because they included a clause regarding “a deck in a user-defined sequence,” does not automatically mean that any such feature exists in any of their machines.
I believe we still need proof.
Quote: camaplI believe we still need proof.
Wait, there's still people who think this is a legit thread? And that there's a chance BJpro is telling the truth?
Zcore the house doesn’t always win that’s a fact
Quote: camaplI appreciate your addition to this thread - background, research, and conclusions.
I only find one issue, and that is the statute in Nevada requiring game makers who sell to Nevada casinos to make ALL of their games compliant with Nevada law regardless of where they are sold.
However, this does not necessarily contradict your conclusions. The existence of a patent does not directly indicate the existence of the product that it describes. Just because they included a clause regarding “a deck in a user-defined sequence,” does not automatically mean that any such feature exists in any of their machines.
I believe we still need proof.
1. Thanks. I had never heard of that Nevada statute. There are probably legal strategies to circumvent that statute- such as forming a different company that is a wholly-owned subsidiary of your main company. But I'm not sure of that and I haven't seen the statute.
2. From reading the technical detail in the patent, I do think it is almost certain that Shufflemaster did build a prototype device and test it in a laboratory. But, I agree that the existence of a patent (and the probable existence of a prototype in a laboratory) does not mean that the capability is fielded in actual commercial devices. And, I agree we have no proof.
3. It is the nature of evidence that most of it is indicative or contra-indicative rather than conclusive. And I am not claiming any conclusions. I'm employing my training as a scientist to gather and apply information and see which possibilities can be reasonably eliminated and which ones can't.
4. I don't want to insult the OP as others have - but in his subsequent posts he has done a very poor job of "faking it." IMO, he does not talk about variance and swings of probability in the way that a seasoned card counter would. And, while his submission of a phony photograph does not "prove" anything, it does "indicate" that his original post was untruthful. Its pretty damn irritating.
Quote: BjproFrom 2006 to 2012 I made a 6 figures every year like clockwork and I noticed it was getting harder and harder so I took 10k and a month of my time and went everyday to the tables I started noticing a pattern Monday through Wednesday it was possible to win using classic count strategies but is was definitely harder Thursday through Sunday is was a slaughterhouse every table no was winning anywhere the shuffle master was the only difference they where the md2 advanced and Md3 versions .So road block after road block I managed to buy a new Md3 Shuffle Master for the price of $10,300.00 dollars What I found
1 Are they rigged?
Absolutely ,but not illegal as long as the still meet there payout
2 Is there beast mode ?
Yes that is 91% house favor this is done though moving higher value cards to the top (that’s why you need to cut at least 1 deck back) notice the deeper you cut the tag card is placed further out
3 scan every card?
Yes it knows if there is a extra card and exactly what card is extra
4 Do dealers know
Not details but they get there tips hurt by this so they know
5 can it be beaten?
Yes ,but throw basic strategy out the window NO splits ever not even aces No doubles you will lose if you do this that’s the beginning I will answer other question as they come in
Hopefully this puts the shuffle master myths to rest I’ve seen all the Forums people noticed the difference then the fool jumps in a say he works at shuffle master say can’t be rigged!!!
Bottom line is this I have the machine and have a year straight of practice They are absolutely rigged but not illegal if they stay in the payout guidelines .when the casino buys or leases a 10000 dollar machine you better believe it has to do more than just mix up the cards it provides the House a drastic advantage. Happy to answer any questions. And I’m back to making my 6 figures!!
Thursday thru Sunday nobody was winning ??? Even with a gaffed game, how is that possible ???
Quote: jackgriffinThursday thru Sunday nobody was winning ??? Even with a gaffed game, how is that possible ???
Stop with the logical analysis. Only emotion and conspiracy theories are allowed, otherwise your a janitor or casino stock holder.
ZCore13
Quote: RomesThanks for being diligent and thorough enough to do a google image search. That + authentication (signing a piece of paper/etc) are some of the quickest ways to verify. He should be able to just take a video and upload it on youtube of him circling the machine saying "this is bjpro, and here's the 'beat mode' setting..." while clicking in the settings to show us. That's all it would take and he'd blow this whole thing out of the water. Something tells me though that even though it's that simple, that won't happen =/...Quote: gamerfreakBjpro sent me photos of a shufflemaster, and a random stack of black chips.
I did a reverse image search on the photos, and they are identical to this eBay listing which sold for $6k, not $10.3k.
I asked for photos with his username written on an index card but haven't gotten a reply.
FWIW (maybe not much) BJPro did include a few images that are not on the auction, and told me that he was willing to post a video once he got back from being out of town.
That’s not to say I’m hopeful, but for poops and giggles I’m willing to hold my breath, for no other reason than shuffle-gate would be an amazingly entertaining saga.
Geez. I'm beginning to think that this thread would make a good TV mini-series.....
Quote: BjproRemove 80% of the 10s and 9s let us know your results
In a 6 deck shoe there are 96 ten value cards and 24 nines, for a total of 120. 80% of that would be 96. So you think 96 high value cards all get put to the top of the deck by the shuffler and then cut to behind the cut card?
And you still haven't answered, why not cut from the back of the deck, keeping all 96 cards in play? Sure would be interesting seeing 96 straight 10's and 9's.
How much would you like to bet that the shuffler won't and you can't make it shuffle all (ever), most(ever) or any irregular amount (more than what would be a statical norm) of high value cards to the top? We'll place the money in escrow or with someone trustworthy and see who wins. I can meet you in Las Vegas with your own (allegedly) machine or you can come to where I work in Arizona and pick any machine during anytime of day or night and We'll track cards. For the right amount, I'll also fly to wherever you are.
By the way, since you keep flapping your gums about my experience, I've been a dealer, pit boss, shift manager and table games director. I've also consulted for new table games and a dealer school.
ZCore13
Are you from the USA? Do you normally play in LV?Quote: Bjpro
I find this interesting. I did a little digging and the machine was sold to someone located in South America and then sold to a casino.Quote: BjproUSA Vegas and Laughlin ,Reno travel to the tribe casino in the west often too
Are you still sticking with your story?
I'm sure you can make up some BS, but it isn't looking good for you at this point.
Quote: AxelWolfI find this interesting. I did a little digging and the machine was sold to someone located in South America and then sold to a casino.
Are you still sticking with your story?
I'm sure you can make up some BS, but it isn't looking good for you at this point.
I'm the guy who sold that machine on eBay.
First, to the OP: I don't appreciate you using my images. I took those pictures myself and therefore own the copyright.
Second, after reading the thread I can state with certainty this is not the person who I sold this shuffle machine to, and not the person he sold it to. I actually know exactly where that machine is, and it is in a casino.
Finally, I own a bunch of shufflers. I've had multiple MD3s, MD2s, Deckmates, iDeals, Ace, King and One2Six shufflers. I have rebuilt shufflers and studied every detail of how they work mechanically and have dug very deep into the software. I have all of the passwords needed to program these machines.
I can state, with certainty, that SHFL doesn't sell shufflers with any mode for playing other than random. The mechanisms for how the MD2, MD3 & DM work are all basically the same. The MD2-CR and MD3 DO have card recognition. The way it works is there is a little camera that reads the cards. But the only uses for that are:
1. identify missing cards
2. verify jackpot hands (use by iDeal, not possible with MD3)
3. sort cards. The card sorting mode puts the cards in "new" order. The only configuration you have is to train it on a brand of card, you can't set the order at all.
So I can assure everyone out there that Shufflemaster shufflers are 100% fair from the factory and do not have any settings to make them otherwise.
Sorry it took me so long to reply to this thread, I've been car shopping and just haven't kept up with the forums in the last few days!
P.S. if anyone is in the market for a shuffler, PM me! But if you plan to use it to stack the deck, you'll be disappointed.
Quote: Bjproas for the eBay unit I got that one as well but it has issues you will see the high bidder is blkjkpro.
This is 100% a lie. I can send wizard a screenshot of my sellers page if needed.
A small twist of fate. Who would've known? I'm certainly glad I contacted you, this could get interesting, or not if the OP slinks away, but I somehow doubt that. Thanks for confirming what we already knew about the OP. See what happens when you slack off on your WOV time? (-;Quote: jopkeI'm the guy who sold that machine on eBay.
First, to the OP: I don't appreciate you using my images. I took those pictures myself and therefore own the copyright.
Second, after reading the thread I can state with certainty this is not the person who I sold this shuffle machine to, and not the person he sold it to. I actually know exactly where that machine is, and it is in a casino.
Finally, I own a bunch of shufflers. I've had multiple MD3s, MD2s, Deckmates, iDeals, Ace, King and One2Six shufflers. I have rebuilt shufflers and studied every detail of how they work mechanically and have dug very deep into the software. I have all of the passwords needed to program these machines.
I can state, with certainty, that SHFL doesn't sell shufflers with any mode for playing other than random. The mechanisms for how the MD2, MD3 & DM work are all basically the same. The MD2-CR and MD3 DO have card recognition. The way it works is there is a little camera that reads the cards. But the only uses for that are:
1. identify missing cards
2. verify jackpot hands (use by iDeal, not possible with MD3)
3. sort cards. The card sorting mode puts the cards in "new" order. The only configuration you have is to train it on a brand of card, you can't set the order at all.
So I can assure everyone out there that Shufflemaster shufflers are 100% fair from the factory and do not have any settings to make them otherwise.
Sorry it took me so long to reply to this thread, I've been car shopping and just haven't kept up with the forums in the last few days!
P.S. if anyone is in the market for a shuffler, PM me! But if you plan to use it to stack the deck, you'll be disappointed.
I really hate to open up this can of worms because when something is even remotely possible some of the conspiracies theorists and crazy people will run with it( yes,18 yo's in a row is possible, it's just never happened on a fair game)
I may have misunderstood but I think you mentioned something about there being a possibility it could be hacked to do something like this?
P.S. Someone is in the market of having one repaired, check the recent threads.
Quote: monet0412Where is ZenKing at? He must agree and have knowledge about these accusations? I'd pay money to see the two team up and play BJ. I don't understand why you don't play on the bad days and just crush on the good days?
Lol. Dont remind me. Im still trying to get that cheating stuff out of my head and just accepting it was ridiculous variance and horrible timing. I also havent played in over 3 weeks since I got my first back off in case I got flyered all over the city. Didnt want to risk other casinos backing me off due to the flyer and then remembering my face. Ill return soon and hope the flyer, if there was one, is gone. Been hustling local FIFA video game tournaments instead. Picked up 3.5k recently as well. :)
Quote: ZenKinGLol. Dont remind me. Im still trying to get that cheating stuff out of my head and just accepting it was ridiculous variance and horrible timing. I also havent played in over 3 weeks since I got my first back off in case I got flyered all over the city. Didnt want to risk other casinos backing me off due to the flyer and then remembering my face. Ill return soon and hope the flyer, if there was one, is gone. Been hustling local FIFA video game tournaments instead. Picked up 3.5k recently as well. :)
Hi ZK, Welcome back. I expect your reputation for level thinking will recover given time. You just seemed to underestimate how bad variance can hurt you and lashed out against your misfortune.
So, you got backed off? Was it a polite 'You are good, please stop playing' or was it something more assertive? Did they get your ID? Were you playing rated?
Going 3 weeks scared to do 'your day job' must be a PITA financially. Hustling some other AP opportunity was always the way to go, IMHO.
Quote: BjproSo your somewhere in between A janitor and stock holder ?
Mods: this is not directed at the author of the thread, It's simply a meme from a movie that I thought it was appropriate and funny for this thread/quote. Please don't suspend me. :-)
Quote: jopkeI'm the guy who sold that machine on eBay...
This thread is getting interesting at least...
Quote: AxelWolfI may have misunderstood but I think you mentioned something about there being a possibility it could be hacked to do something like this?
Because there is hardware that allows for the sorting of cards, it would technically be possible to write software to make the machine deal cards any way you want. I have played around with decompiling the EPROMs used in older SHFL products and done some research on the Linux version used in the more modern ones. I think, in theory, someone could do it, but it would be very difficult and complicated.
I have talked to a number of folks who buy and sell shufflers, including SHFL techs, and I have yet to hear of it actually happening.
Quote: OnceDearHi ZK, Welcome back. I expect your reputation for level thinking will recover given time. You just seemed to underestimate how bad variance can hurt you and lashed out against your misfortune.
So, you got backed off? Was it a polite 'You are good, please stop playing' or was it something more assertive? Did they get your ID? Were you playing rated?
Going 3 weeks scared to do 'your day job' must be a PITA financially. Hustling some other AP opportunity was always the way to go, IMHO.
I never underestimated 'bad variance', i went through this before back in PA, it was just the timing of it that really angered me more than anything. To get out here and immediately go into one of your worst losing streaks with real expenses hovering over my head now, just really angered me more than anything; it was pretty much the start that I did not want to happen, but it did. Due to the low edge of this grind, you're going to get clobbered for hours, weeks, and even months on end; I understand that, but it's just that I felt so unlucky to have something like that happen EXACTLY when I got here and moved out for the first time.
The backoff was on the borderline of polite and assertive, they clearly didnt like me, I guess because I was playing so aggressively and just didn't care after getting my ass beat for months in this town. They didn't get my ID, but they(security guard and I guess shift manager) tried to threaten me and scare me into giving it by saying that Im getting trespassed or that they NEED to see it, etc., but I know all their tricks already and frankly im not scared of anyone. They could have 10 security guards around me like they did one time in PA and it wont do anything. They eventually let me go and said next time I come back, Ill be trespassed.
No, I never play rated.
1 in 10?
lol
Thanks Jopke for showing up :-)
Of course, I think we're all willing to look at any video on this subject that Bjpro has to offer.
Quote: gordonm888I must admit that jopke's posts sound utterly convincing to me.
Of course, I think we're all willing to look at any video on this subject that Bjpro has to offer.
I know I mentioned he sent pics not in the eBay auction, but I looked further and they are just pics from other listings jopke has put up.
He did promise the YouTube video when he isn’t out of town, though.
ZCore13
Quote: Zcore13I'm guessing this guy came here thinking this was just your average gambling forum. He had no clue that this is the home of the cream of the crop from many facets of the gaming world, including on both sides of the tables. It's definitely not the first time this has happened and definitely will not be the last.
ZCore13
I agree, but.....
Quote: gamerfreakI agree, but.....
I've seen plenty of things flying that I couldn't identify.
https://youtu.be/2omx0uvl0WU
Quote: JohnzimboI predict OP "shuffles" off to Buffalo and we see no more of him
You win!
ZCore13
