Maryland Live! Card Counter Civil Judgment
However the night quickly turned sour when Mills, accused only of counting cards, was physically detained by casino security and forced into a back hallway. When Mills refused to hand over his ID to security personnel and asked to leave, security continued to detain him and called the Anne Arundel County Police.
Officer Douglas Bilter and Officer Kyle Shapelow, who are also employed by the casino as security, were the responding officers. When they arrived, the officers incorrectly informed Mills that card counting was in fact illegal, and he was required to provide ID to the casino or he would be arrested. Instead of facing arrest, Mills complied and handed over his identification. He was trespassed, refused the right to cash out his chips, and left stranded outside the casino as his host obviously wasn't going to provide a limo back home.
Here's the video of security physically detaining Mills.
And here the video, with audio, of the backroom and police interaction.
Just last month, in a scathing opinion by the Maryland District Court, Maryland Live was found to have in fact falsely imprisoned Mills, and he will be awarded a civil judgment with the amount to be determined by a Jury.
The court also decided that Officer Douglas Bilter and Officer Kyle Shapelow may be held liable for violating Mill's constitutional rights, as they "had abandoned any investigative or law enforcement purpose and were acting for the casino's private purposes only", which was compounded by the fact that the casino is their secondary employer.
Additionally the civil claims of assault and negligence against Maryland Live and security personnel will be allowed to continue to a Jury Trial, which is scheduled for September 5th 2017.
The full decision by the District Court can be found here.
Congratulations to Justin as well as Bob Nersesian and his team for the initial summary judgment for false imprisonment. I hope justice continues to be served with the conclusion of the Jury Trial next month.
It may vary from state to state, so check with your local lawyer, but in general, you do not have to provide ID for anything in a casino, even a CTR. Then again the casino could choose to write a SAR on you if you don't, but still legally you don't have to. This gets murky if you are or look young though. They could claim they're ID'ing you to check you age, which they CAN do, but all they can do at that point if you refuse or say you don't have it is ask you to leave, not detain you.Quote: ahiromuWhat's the legal situation regarding providing ID
Quote: ahiromuWhat's the legal situation regarding providing ID
You're more or less required to hand over your ID to the police if they have reasonable suspicion that you've committed a crime.
The casino can't compel you to produce ID under any circumstance.
Quote: RomesIt may vary from state to state, so check with your local lawyer, but in general, you do not have to provide ID for anything in a casino, even a CTR. Then again the casino could choose to write a SAR on you if you don't, but still legally you don't have to. This gets murky if you are or look young though. They could claim they're ID'ing you to check you age, which they CAN do, but all they can do at that point if you refuse or say you don't have it is ask you to leave, not detain you.
But if the casino invited u and sent a limo to pick u up clearly based on prior info they had i don think carding for age as an excuse would hold up
Quote: darkozBut if the casino invited u and sent a limo to pick u up clearly based on prior info they had i don think carding for age as an excuse would hold up
They don't need a reason to ask, but you also don't need a reason to refuse. I do wonder though, if he had a host wouldn't they have his personal information on file?
I hit a jackpot at a casino and while waiting to be paid, a security guard approached me, asking for ID. Actually this has happened twice, at two different casinos, both with funny results. I'll share each separately.
1) I said something like, "I just hit a jackpot and I gave my ID to --", cut off by security guard, "It's the LAW you have to have ID to be in a casino...(rambles)". I said listen for a second, I just hit a jackpot and the slot attendant has my ID. He acted like that means nothing and continued on, "It's the law you have to have your ID...." After arguing for 10 minutes the slot attendant finally came by, asked what was the matter, I said this guy's hounding me for ID when I said you had it. She says he's just doing his job. (Yeah, right.) Might have been the first time I didn't tip on a jackpot. When asked to play another hand, I said no, cashed out and walked away slowly, watching her get flustered and have to reset the hand or do whatever she gotta do.
2) Same thing, told the security I gave slot attendant my ID. Actually it was slot manager because JP was a big one (for the place). I told him go ask so-n-so, the manager, he has my ID, or call on the walkie talkie and they'll verify I'm 21+. He doesn't want none of that, so he hangs out near me for at least half an hour. Manager comes back and says to come to cage with him to get paid. Security follows us to cage. I get paid, all is good, and it's been at least 45 minutes or an hour now. I'm walking back from cage and security stops me and asks for ID. Wow.....
Ah, not related to hitting a JP, but I was at one of them casinos where they ID you at the door. Whoever was at the entrance was off in lala land, facing the wall, looked like she was texting. Whatever. I kept walking. A good 10 seconds or so later I hear a "sir...sir!!!!", I just kept walking. She keeps yelling "sir, sir, I need to check your ID, sir!! Sir!!!" I keep walking. Some guy stops me and basically turns me around to her. Ugh. So I look at her confused, she's still at her stupid podium yelling she has to see my ID. So I pull out my ID from my wallet, kinda hold it out. She's thinking I'm gonna walk toward her. Hell no, I'm not doing that. So she has to walk a good chunk of distance across the casino to check my ID.
Normally I'll show ID when I walk in a casino (where they do that), but I'm not going to go out of my way to accommodate some idiot who's incapable of doing their job properly.
As far as showing ID, I think that'd be an excellent question for Bob. N.
Although I'm pretty sure you have to show one for a CTR.
https://www.fincen.gov/frequently-asked-questions-regarding-fincen-currency-transaction-report-ctr
Quote:21. Is a “form of identification” (Item 20) required for an entity? If so, what information would we enter in that field?
For technical filing purposes, Item 20 is a critical field on the FinCEN CTR (identified by the *). However, the release of the FinCEN CTR did not create any new obligations or otherwise change existing statutory and regulatory expectations of financial institutions in filing the new report.
The previous guidance for completing the identification field on the CTR for an entity instructed filers to check the “Other” box and enter “NA” on the line provided. That instruction is no longer valid given the addition of the “Unknown” box for Item 20. The addition of the “Unknown” box means that filers will no longer use “NA” or “XX” in certain fields.
Therefore, if the filing institution does not have information available or knowledge of a “form of identification” for the entity, it should check the “Unknown” box for Item 20.
FinCEN expects, however, that financial institutions will provide the most complete filing information available within each report, regardless of whether or not the individual fields are deemed critical for technical filing purposes. Examples of “forms of identification” for an entity could include the entity’s business license or incorporation documents. Please refer to 31 CFR § 1010.312 for additional information on identification requirements.
Please note that if “Other” is selected in Item 20, you must either put in the number associated with that other form of identification or space fill the “Number” box to avoid a validation error.
Quote: RomesThat's phenomenal to hear. I remember watching the video with sound when it came out. I didn't know the "officers" were ALSO employed by the casino. Seems like a huge conflict of interest and I'm glad the judge saw straight through it. I sincerely hope the casino gets hit for a number that will hurt them, though I wont' hold my breath, but I DO HOPE the cops and security guards get hurt by the amount, as that should teach a lesson to the casino's wanna be 'thugs' whom do illegal things on their behalf, when in reality it's their individual noses that are open to being hurt the most.
I think the security guards who were just security guards are probably safe and rightfully so. They probably make $15/hr and can't be expected to know the ins and outs of the laws. Responsibility should fall on their employer for giving them unlawful orders.
The cops should be fired for sure. Perhaps a light jail sentence as well. Holding them or the city liable for huge amounts of money is tricky, I guess, as always.
The cops don't really have much money and should have even less soon. It's also kind of dicey to have a scenario where cops who screw up are financially ruined.
Hammering taxpayers for every episode of misconduct by city employees is a bit of a Pandora's box. Probably better to limit it to cases where somebody has really lost something of value and deserves restitution. Like their life or their health or a lot of time, as with a wrongful conviction.
On the other hand, if Maryland Live were sued out of existence, the community would probably be better off. Worst case Ontario, they are instantly replaced by another casino.
The casino as a corporation should be held responsible as well as the security guards personally, their overseers (managers, etc.) personally, the police involved personally, as well as any of the policemen's overseers who were involved (if they had knowledge or ordered the policemen to act in that way).
Sorta like how if someone hires a hitman to kill someone, both the hitman and the financer are held responsible.
To the best of my understanding, it's pretty hard to go after a CEO who knowingly breaks the law in far more serious cases. So I reckon it's pretty hard to go after a wage slave who does something fairly minor, either unknowingly or for fear of losing his job.
Anyway, someone has to have money to make suing them worthwhile.
And, actually, hiring a hitman is perfectly legal. Only the hitman is guilty of any wrongdoing, from a legal standpoint.
Quote: RigondeauxAnd, actually, hiring a hitman is perfectly legal. Only the hitman is guilty of any wrongdoing, from a legal standpoint.
Ahem. Where are you getting that?
want to see what the judgment $$$ is
Quote: RigondeauxThere's a legal concept called the corporate veil. I don't understand it too good. But it makes it very hard to sue individuals acting as part of a corporation.
To the best of my understanding, it's pretty hard to go after a CEO who knowingly breaks the law in far more serious cases. So I reckon it's pretty hard to go after a wage slave who does something fairly minor, either unknowingly or for fear of losing his job.
Anyway, someone has to have money to make suing them worthwhile.
And, actually, hiring a hitman is perfectly legal. Only the hitman is guilty of any wrongdoing, from a legal standpoint.
Yea its called conspiracy to commit murder and gets u serious jail time if convicted
Quote: billryanI can't imagine security was aware they had sent a limo for him. If so, they would have already had his information. The left hand rarely knows what the right hand is doing. Marketing and Security are two different worlds.
Regardless if u dont hav id the casino has the right to ask u to LEAVE - not demand u STAY
It is the same law as in a bar. If the bartender believes u are under age and u dont produce id he can insist you leave. Not hav his goons take you to a back room and hav off duty cops in his employ illegally search you
Btw - over and over these cases are won in favor of people like Justin mills and over and over people on here keep arguing misinformation about the law
Read the full judgement. The casino was wrong in just about everything they did here
Quote: RS.
Although I'm pretty sure you have to show one for a CTR.
You do not need to show one for a CTR. Our policy is to not pay you until you produce it and tell you that your are not welcome back at the casino until you produce it. If the disputed amount is greater than $500 the casino is supposed to call Gaming.
Quote: DRichYou do not need to show one for a CTR. Our policy is to not pay you until you produce it and tell you that your are not welcome back at the casino until you produce it. If the disputed amount is greater than $500 the casino is supposed to call Gaming.
I think you're contradicting yourself. You say you don't need to show ID for a CTR, but then you say you won't get paid without it. Which is it?
Quote: darkozYea its called conspiracy to commit murder and gets u serious jail time if convicted
I want to say those that hire the hit man get executed more often than the hit men themselves.
He said in a former broadcast you don't (though perhaps this is pending state) and that the person asking for it is supposed to simply take the best physical description of you they can instead of your ID information.Quote: RS...As far as showing ID, I think that'd be an excellent question for Bob. N.
Although I'm pretty sure you have to show one for a CTR.
This policy is against gaming regulations (in most states). Legally they do not have to provide ID, and thus you can not deny a payout based on "internal policy." But of course, like this would ever get a casino in trouble from gaming...Quote: DRichYou do not need to show one for a CTR. Our policy is to not pay you until you produce it and tell you that your are not welcome back at the casino until you produce it. If the disputed amount is greater than $500 the casino is supposed to call Gaming.
Quote: DeucekiesI think you're contradicting yourself. You say you don't need to show ID for a CTR, but then you say you won't get paid without it. Which is it?
I'm saying you are not required to provide it, but if you don't you may not get paid (or at least in a timely fashion without a fight). It all comes down to the individual. Some people would rather stay anonymous than collect what might be a small amount of money. If you are cashing out a small sum like $5 and the cashier asks you for ID, you determine if that $5 is worth giving up your ID and tax information for.
Quote: Romes
This policy is against gaming regulations (in most states). Legally they do not have to provide ID, and thus you can not deny a payout based on "internal policy." But of course, like this would ever get a casino in trouble from gaming...
Two points, the argument is that it isn't internal policy it is the policy of FINCEN which is the Department of Treasury and in general Gaming doesn't want to stand up to FINCEN. Secondly, you are right Gaming almost always finds for the casino in disputes.
Are you talking about in this area or in general?Quote: DRichSecondly, you are right Gaming almost always finds for the casino in disputes.
If you take all the general publics disputes, I have a feeling there are many frivolous disputes.
As far as AP's go. Most of the disputes I have been involved in or have first-hand knowledge of have been in favor of the AP. Most of the time when an AP files a complaint they know the casino is obviously wrong.
Quote: AxelWolfAre you talking about in this area or in general?
If you take all the general publics disputes, I have a feeling there are many frivolous disputes.
As far as AP's go. Most of the disputes I have been involved in or have first-hand knowledge of have been in favor of the AP. Most of the time when an AP files a complaint they know the casino is obviously wrong.
Yes, I was referring mainly to the general public. As almost anything, the more educated you are on the regulations and procedures the better chance you will win in a dispute
Quote: gamerfreakYou're more or less required to hand over your ID to the police if they have reasonable suspicion that you've committed a crime.
The casino can't compel you to produce ID under any circumstance.
Yes that's why Maryland Live employs Anne Arundel county police on sight, to do their dirty work. This happened to me. Maryland Live doesn't like winners, or in my case, losers either. They trapped me in a restaurant and demanded ID. When I said no and that I was leaving, they called for the police. They continued to press me and when I continued to refuse they eventually let me walk out. I passed the cop when I was walking out. Maryland casino's are the only ones that I have seen that employ police on sight. Maryland casino's do not like winners.
Quote: SandybestdogYes that's why Maryland Live employs Anne Arundel county police on sight, to do their dirty work. This happened to me. Maryland Live doesn't like winners, or in my case, losers either. They trapped me in a restaurant and demanded ID. When I said no and that I was leaving, they called for the police. They continued to press me and when I continued to refuse they eventually let me walk out. I passed the cop when I was walking out. Maryland casino's are the only ones that I have seen that employ police on sight. Maryland casino's do not like winners.
All three Detroit casino have Detroit Police on site. Greektown also has Transit Police for the people mover station.
Quote: SandybestdogYes that's why Maryland Live employs Anne Arundel county police on sight, to do their dirty work. This happened to me. Maryland Live doesn't like winners, or in my case, losers either. They trapped me in a restaurant and demanded ID. When I said no and that I was leaving, they called for the police. They continued to press me and when I continued to refuse they eventually let me walk out. I passed the cop when I was walking out. Maryland casino's are the only ones that I have seen that employ police on sight. Maryland casino's do not like winners.
Maryland Live and Delaware park have to be two of the sweatiest casinos on the east coast. I'd never press my luck at either.
Quote: FCBLComishHow is it possible that they did not allow him to cash in his chips? How is it also possible that nobody on this thread asked about it?
I think it's somewhat common to get barred from cashing out when trespassed in many jurisdictions. Gaming regulations don't always favor the player as much in other areas compared to Nevada.
Just curious, unless you want to get backroom or hassled when asked for ID why would anyone just say, NO? Why not just say, "I didn't know I looked that young, thanks, sure hold on." Then pretend to check. With a puzzled look on your face, just say, "Oh, sh*t I must have left it in the car/home or lost it? Saying NO just pisses them off and makes you look guilty of something.
Don't start spouting you know the law and telling them they can't do this or that etc. If they don't seem to want to let you leave, simply say "I feel very uncomfortable here, so I just want to leave."
Actually I've flat out said "no", but both times were because I was leaving anyway and it was some dumba** security or cocktail waitress hounding me for walking through the casino.
Quote: AxelWolfI keep hearing people saying NO and refusing to give ID when asked.
Just curious, unless you want to get backroom or hassled when asked for ID why would anyone just say, NO? Why not just say, "I didn't know I looked that young, thanks, sure hold on." Then pretend to check. With a puzzled look on your face, just say, "Oh, sh*t I must have left it in the car/home or lost it? Saying NO just pisses them off and makes you look guilty of something.
Don't start spouting you know the law and telling them they can't do this or that etc. If they don't seem to want to let you leave, simply say "I feel very uncomfortable here, so I just want to leave."
I agree and have learned the hard way. Back in PA, i used the 'no thanks', and it bit me. Even if you just keep refusing, all it does its bring unwanted attention to yourself. I then learned the best way is to just say you dont have it. It doesnt show any guilt or that you're trying to hide something and then they have to just let you leave. It's a win win.
The problem with this approach though is if you were asked by a dealer beforehand for ID to play and so they KNOW that you have ID on you. Be careful not to say you dont have ID if you already gave it to a dealer or pit boss before playing.
Quote: gamerfreakOfficer Douglas Bilter and Officer Kyle Shapelow, who are also employed by the casino as security, were the responding officers. When they arrived, the officers incorrectly informed Mills that card counting was in fact illegal, and he was required to provide ID to the casino or he would be arrested.
..........
The court also decided that Officer Douglas Bilter and Officer Kyle Shapelow may be held liable for violating Mill's constitutional rights, as they "had abandoned any investigative or law enforcement purpose and were acting for the casino's private purposes only", which was compounded by the fact that the casino is their secondary employer.
Absolutely (and obviously) unacceptable for cops to lie to the public. If they don't know, they should.....
a) check on it.
b) give the citizen the benefit of the doubt.
b) have been paying attention during training. It was no surprise to the police dept that a casino had opened.
If they weren't trained on basic casino rules, then the chief of police is at fault.
ALSO, obviously the Casino is at fault for allowing the cops to lie when the casino knew better.
Quote: billryanIN NYC and on Long Island, cops are allowed to work as security while off duty in most places, but can't work in the Precinct that they are assigned to, just to avoid such situations. How can anybody expect the cops to side with a citizen against the people who sign their paychecks. Allowing the local cops to moonlight there is just asking for trouble. At least some of the blame goes to the cops superiors who allowed such a thing to happen.
This is the situation in many states. Policemen are usually allowed to work during off-duty hours as security or traffic control and are allowed to use their police cars, uniforms, weapons etc while doing so. This helps to compensate them for not being paid higher salaries. But you are exactly correct -it skews the way that they do their job -both on-duty as well as during off-duty jobs - because they have an interest in ingratiating themselves with the organizations that do hire off-duty cops. It stinks.
But complaining about this publicly (letters to the newspaper, etc) can be perilous. The 'brotherhood of policemen' have all sorts of ways of retaliating.
I am 1000 % fine with having police working security, it makes me feel safer.Quote: billryanAllowing the local cops to moonlight there is just asking for trouble. At least some of the blame goes to the cops superiors who allowed such a thing to happen.
I am NOT ok with police officers telling lies to citizens.
Cop responds to a call. The guy who schedules his off duty work says I want this guy arrested, what does the cop do?
Maryland has lots of cops. Simply have cops from other areas work security.
Quote: gordonm888I was so glad to read this thread and learn of the preliminary outcome of this case. Every year, over a thousand people are illegally imprisioned by casino security staff and illegally/improperly detained by law enforcement officers. This is a not a minor issue - it is a significant injustice and it needs to stop. Hopefully this is a significant step forward.
I will update in September. The media is not reporting on it, so when I couldn't find an article to link I wrote this up.
Casinos originated as part of a criminal enterprise and they have never outgrown that.
Quote: billryanFunny, the cops are the ones that lied to him and threatened him with what would be an illegal arrest. They are the ones who took an oath to uphold the law and peoples constitutional rights, not the $12 an hour security guys.
Most people think card counting is illegal so it wouldn't surprise me if the cops didn't know that it wasn't illegal.
Quote: DRichMost people think card counting is illegal so it wouldn't surprise me if the cops didn't know that it wasn't illegal.
If they thought it was illegal, why didn't they arrest or cite him, or even write a police report on the incident?
Quote: gamerfreakIf they thought it was illegal, why didn't they arrest or cite him, or even write a police report on the incident?
THIS!!
They know damn well is not illegal and is just a form of witness intimidation.
Quote: gamerfreakIf they thought it was illegal, why didn't they arrest or cite him, or even write a police report on the incident?
Okay, I guess I am persuaded that the cops deserve a significant level of blame. I hope the judge in this case throws the book at them.
But it is the casino industry that perpetuates this culture of "backrooming" - false imprisonment and intimidation, and sometimes physically rough handling -even injuring the patron if they try to resist or lawfully walk out of the casino. I hope the responsible casino executive and the $12/hr security guys are penalized by the court. They deserve to be removed from society for some period of time.
