6 to 5 Blackjack

American casino's ruined roulette with the extra "00" and the abandoning of en prison rule. Now they're trying to ruin blackjack.

I was in Vegas in May and sat down to play blackjack at a 6 deck shoe in Bally's. I was shocked that they had tables with 6 decks paying 6 to 5 for blackjack. I asked the dealer about it and he confided to me that it was a brand new policy the casino was trying it due to the rough times and if they are successful will keep it like that. Other dealers I talked to there were shocked and weren't even aware of the policy yet. But as we all know the casino's are unfortunately full of fools. The tables were getting pretty heavy play.

Please, please, please stop sitting at any blackjack table that pays 6 to 5 for blackjack. More importantly, tell your friends what a rip-off it is. Nip this nonsense in the bud. Nip it. In the bud.

Quote: Producer10

I was shocked that they had tables with 6 decks paying 6 to 5 for blackjack. It was a brand new policy the casino was trying due to rough times.

A very foolish move by casinos to seek out ignorant tourists as victims to be shorn rather than giving players a fair shake for their money. What is worse is that the casinos even put this in large letters on their marquees and get away with it simply because there are too many customers who don't know and don't care.

Rough times? Treat your customers that way and ofcourse there will be rough times.

It is so true that 6:5 is stupid short-sighted casino marketing/management. The loss of market share can already be seen with careful analysis of casino by casino blackjack play data, although I have not seen anything in public yet. A couple of the factors casinos are ignoring are 1) the damage to Vegas' long term reputation and 2) the coat-tail effect of objective advisors to big groups: these days preliminary research and pilot trips are based on enthusiasts' complaints. There are lots of deals on rooms, and no pro is going to risk putting a close group into a rip-off joint like 6:5.

A big problem is there are "players" and "tourists."

Players can be tourists but most tourists are not players.

A tourist shows up on the strip, goes into the fist casino they see and say, "why not give blackjack a try?"

A player checks the rules and picks the table that is best for them.

I had a discussion on this with a friend of mine and it was useless. He said "How much difference is it anyways? I play for entertainment and expect to lose."

*sigh*

I hope I stay anonymous here...

I did it, played 6:5 at 4Queens. I received 15$ in chips for 10$ and then found out, no 5$ table paying 3:2, so I did it.

Please don't tell anybody.

Casinos are losing my money because of it. I move from table to table a lot, and many casinos have so many 6-5 tables that there are only a handful that I can play. When I run out of 3-2 tables, I move on.

6:5 is usually offered at low level entry games (lowest min offered by the casino). Plenty of good 3:2 games are available everywhere. Almost all games above entry-level are 3:2 (except at a handful of casinos).

The 6:5 games are not losing money or turning people off to blackjack, nor are they ruining the game. Quite the contrary, 6:5 offers a low priced opportunity for players to have a blackjack experience that they might not otherwise be able to afford. Typical casinos on the strip could not afford to have that price-point of blackjack offered at 3:2. And, the more players who want to play blackjack, the fewer tables will be taken out and replaced by slots or carnival games.

I think most do not understand the market forces at work here.

Quote: teliot

I think most do not understand the market forces at work here.

Perhaps not. I'd still rather they pay 3:2 and do some monkeying around with the more obscure rules if they need a higher house edge though I sure think the expense of a dealer is not going to break the casino. If the casino wants the five dollar 6:5 trade all they really have to do is offer 3:2 and comp at a lower rate.

On-edit: Some places now offer Even-Money-Blackjacks. You win but you still just get even money, not even 6:5. I can just see the casino marguees with their flashing lights and foot-tall letters: "Now paying 5:5 on Blackjack" and the tourists not being able to realize that 5:5 is 1:1 which is even-money which is a heck of a bad bargain.

When that happens, there will be forum-posters longing for the bygone days of 6:5. I think those "market forces" are more corporate greed than anything else.

Quote: FleaStiff

Some places now offer Even-Money-Blackjacks.

The phrase "some places" elicits a vision of a back-alley type of place.

I was at Sahara recently. One side of the room had $1 minimums on BJ and paid even money on bets up to $4 and 6:5 for bets of $5 or more. The other side of the room had $5 minimums with 3:2 pay for BJ.

Oh, one more thing: Even if you were betting $5, they don't scan your player card at the $1 tables.


I understand the casinos desire to add to their edge, and I think it will eventually backfire.

Personally, I think the casinos have planned for that day. When it comes, they will proudly announce 7:5 BJ!

This 6/5 "trend" is very representative of industry shortsidedness IMO. I wonder if any of the majors have definitive numbers on the cost benefits to such change. HET has bought in big time. It just reminds me of when the lawyers took over the music business from music people and the accountants did the same with domestic autos from car people. Are there that many ploppies to prey on? Word of mouth can be a powerful force in marketing.

I do all I can to warn players about 6 to 5 games. Unfortunately, I think we are only going to see more of them in the future. I don't vilify a casino for offering a 6 to 5 game, as long as it is at a lower minimum bet than the 3 to 2 games, to give low rollers something to play. Otherwise, I find it objectionable, and a trick, to take advantage of the mathematically challenged. I find it especially repugnant when they only pay 6 to 5 AND restrict doubling on totals of 10 and 11. That is just adding insult to injury.

Quote: Malibugolfer

Word of mouth can be a powerful force in marketing.

Yes. The problem sometimes is the time lag. By the time the players are "voting with their feet" the executives have banked their stock options. There may be a large supply of neophyte gamblers but its not endless. And if Las Vegas becomes "so-so" then why should people continue to flock to The Strip instead of a nearby Indian casino somewhere?

I hate all these methods the casino uses to tighten up their games and "win" more! These casinos should be smart enough to know from blackjack's history that nostalgia is more important than game protection, not the other way around. I encourage you all to discourage these greedy rule changes like the 6:5 decision. With enough support, time, and effort, we may reach a day where all U.S casinos have a .5% disadvantage instead of 1% or 1.5% for the basic strategy player!

Blackjack revenue (statewide in NV) has plunged from roughly $1.5 billion to $1 billion in only 2 years. The other pit games (besides baccarat) have collectively dropped a $0.5 billion as well. Only baccarat has returned to pre-recession levels.
- Blackjack revenues statewide are now at 1997 levels. I doubt that they will ever return to their 2007 levels.
- I think that blackjack has been compromised by Harrah's in particular. As was pointed out earlier, they are even offering 6:5 on the shoe games as well. I doubt that the blackjack players have shifted to baccarat. I think people are just not playing.
- Harrah's learned (at the Rio) that people will play blackjack even at 1:1 if the dealer is a hot chick wearing a bikini. They tried this game poolside.

My opinion is the 6 to 5 games are not the reason blackjack revenue is falling. I think it is mostly a result of hard times in Vegas overall. Nice graph above, but I don't like it that the vertical axis does not go all the way to zero. It makes the drops look worse than they really are.

I was trying to emphasize the relative drops between the three categories. I was also trying to show that baccarat held out much longer before it began to drop, and returned in the last 7 months. If I went to zero it got pretty small.
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There are many reasons for the fall of blackjack.
(1) The recession (but it affected other games differently. blackjack was the worst)
(2) Casinos have removed BJ tables
(3) Competition with local casinos (The "Baccarat Lifestyle" is mostly unique to Las Vegas)
(4) People without much money are sometimes put off by table games and prefer slots
(5) Possibly more people are playing for jackpots and are trying those games or slots
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CITY PLANNING CONSEQUENCES
Personally I think the "City of Las Vegas" is making a mistake in assuming that a new casino will pay for the new city hall. If I was going to build a casino, I wouldn't take a chance on a new "Stratosphere" type of casino. With only baccarat revenue stable, it would seem that the you want high quality casinos. People are not apt to build a high quality casino downtown. Even the Golden Nugget with it's massive upgrades has not installed baccarat tables. Eastside Cannery is an exception, but construction costs were only $250 million.