Regrets of playing unrated
So it looks like playing unrated is pretty much pointless. I missed out on so many comps that i could have gotten. Regret isnt the word. Made this thread for potentially others who go down the same counting route of trying to grow a bankroll. If you're first starting out and playing somewhat long sessions, just play rated because if you don't, you're going to regret it like i did. Save playing unrated when you start playing a hit/run strategy. Unrated serves no purpose whatsoever if you're going to play long sessions.
P.S., i still plan on playing rated in Vegas as that's a must if you want to count for any decent amount of time. It also goes well with my approach of playing short sessions there.
What I'm getting at, is that even though you're playing unrated, they still keep a profile of you and your wins/losses.
If I could go back, I'd never sign up for a card. But then again, I didn't AP back then either.
I'll give you an example. I've not been to SLS in Vegas yet. But I know from others that just by signing up, most likely they'll immediately back me off from games. And that's with no history with them.
By the way, what would happen if i never gave him any ID? I caught him in a lie which was funny cause i knew why he wanted to see it, so i kept asking him why he wants to see it. I kept asking him until he said, i want to see if you're eligible age to play. Then the dealer shouted he already showed us ID. LOL. Of course as I said before, i ended up giving him the ID, but what wouldve happened if i just stayed my ground? There's no requirement to show them right? What if he continues using the excuse he needs to know if im of eligible age to be in the casino?
Apstreet.com actually has their blog post on this subject today, and Grosjean has written a blog post on it also. Most AP's myself included have at least once shown ID when they shouldn't have.
Quote: mcallister3200You say you don't have it/lost it and usually they just tell you can't be on floor without ID/have to go. If you're vehicle registered under your name is i their garage then that's an issue, especially on the east coast.
Apstreet.com actually has their blog post on this subject today, and Grosjean has written a blog post on it also. Most AP's myself included have at least once shown ID when they shouldn't have.
Park elsewhere and walk if possible.
I got the ID treatment from a lot of places besides casinos up until a few years ago. Rarely get it anymore.
I've also had the ID question at the cage probably because of a certain store threshold amount that they tell tellers to ask for your ID, probably just to get your name and review the tape on you later. I questioned them also the same way saying I'm not required to give you it and they said they couldn't cash me out so I asked for my chips back and then they told me they can't give me my chips now LOL. Other times at other stores they give me some bull$hit excuse why they need it so to me its just to steal your name and get them to photocopy it and then review your play. Both scenarios i didn't feel like arguing again and just gave them ID.
What's the law when they ask for your ID at the cage. I'm assuming it's the same and they can't ask for it unless its over 10k for a CTR? And them telling me they can't give me back my chips after I decline ID is definitely illegal I would guess, but I didn't want to escalate at that time
And even if they don't have a name, they track guys like you by description if they don't like your play. ID is just more information, not the start of your problem. If you're in for the long haul, you need to change some things, because you're getting tagged way too soon.
Quote: beachbumbabsI could be wrong, especially about East Coast casinos, but I think they do have the right to ID you or demand you leave because of underage laws. You're in your early 20's. You're going to get ID'd. They get fined huge amounts if they're dealing to underage people.
And even if they don't have a name, they track guys like you by description if they don't like your play. ID is just more information, not the start of your problem. If you're in for the long haul, you need to change some things, because you're getting tagged way too soon.
No one has the right to demand id excepting law enforcement. They have the right to ask u to leave if u refuse. Thats it
If u didnt want to:
Would you hand over your id to the clerk at the supermarket?
A stranger on the street?
The server at burger king?
All of these are just private employees same as casino security with no more rights than anyone else
Next time as mrs reagan would say "just say no"
Quote: mcallister3200You shouldn't be cashing out amounts above thresholds you're going to be ID'd for if you're playing unrated, defeats the purpose, especially when you're already databased. Would also reconsider your plan of playing rated with the most obvious advantage play in the location that's best at picking it off. It's shocking how many bad ideas you have, but that's often a symptom of being stubborn and refusing to listen to anyone else.
I didn't do it on purpose, each store has its own thresholds and sometimes they surprise me with the ID because I didn't think I was cashing out enough to warrant them asking for ID. I always try to make sure I stay under the threshold of what I believe the casino is comfortable with.
Also when did I say I would be playing rated in Vegas? I clearly said I would still be playing unrated when I go out to Vegas because like you said they're extremely sharp there. I don't understand why people here always puts words in my mouth and don't read.
Quote: darkozNo one has the right to demand id excepting law enforcement. They have the right to ask u to leave if u refuse. Thats it
If u didnt want to:
Would you hand over your id to the clerk at the supermarket?
A stranger on the street?
The server at burger king?
All of these are just private employees same as casino security with no more rights than anyone else
Next time as mrs reagan would say "just say no"
My only concern was that I was playing in their establishment and you have to be 21 so I don't want them thinking I was doing something illegal and that'd why I refused ID. But I guess even if I was underage and gambling, its their fault for letting me in so they would be the ones in trouble anyway. Thanks, ill just deny it next time and leave
Quote: darkozNo one has the right to demand id excepting law enforcement. They have the right to ask u to leave if u refuse. Thats it
If u didnt want to:
Would you hand over your id to the clerk at the supermarket?
A stranger on the street?
The server at burger king?
All of these are just private employees same as casino security with no more rights than anyone else
Next time as mrs reagan would say "just say no"
None of those places restrict juveniles from their properties by law. Casinos do.
We agree (now) they have the right to kick you out if you refuse. I thought you were saying before they were required to let you play without ID, which I still think you were. You don't want to risk being ID'd, you shouldn't expect to play there, including cashing out their chips or sitting at their tables.
They have a right to protect their business license, which they can lose if they don't ensure their patrons are of legal age. It's your inner knowledge that you're doing things they don't like that makes you think it's anything beyond that.
Thats the kind of sh*t that will be your downfall(you just motivated the manager to make a note of you). You just can't control yourself can you, Mr. I know my rights? Real good way to fly under the radar. The casinos don't give a flying FK about what the law is at that moment. If they did, numerous AP's wouldn't get held against their will, manhandled or even worst for innocent things.Quote: ZenKinGWell they got my name without me ever using a card. It was either through license plate software or me being confronted by the shift/casino manager pestering me to give him ID, even when i asked him if im required by law
You might win the "I know the law" battle, but you will lose the AP war with that kind of attitude.
You best remain solo in your AP career, because I can't imagine anyone would ever want to work with you given the way you operate.
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I seriously doubt they are tracking you through your license plate at your level of play.
Quote: beachbumbabsNone of those places restrict juveniles from their properties by law. Casinos do.
We agree (now) they have the right to kick you out if you refuse. I thought you were saying before they were required to let you play without ID, which I still think you were. You don't want to risk being ID'd, you shouldn't expect to play there, including cashing out their chips or sitting at their tables.
They have a right to protect their business license, which they can lose if they don't ensure their patrons are of legal age. It's your inner knowledge that you're doing things they don't like that makes you think it's anything beyond that.
I think u r confusing my statements with the op
The casino has the right to ask u to leave for any reason as a private business particularly if they cant determine if u r under age. Patrons have the right to refuse to show id
Btw if the casino truly believes u r underage and needs id to prove it their job is to call law enforcement and have them handle it not take the law into their own hands
At no time has private security at a casino been deputized.
Lets say u were asked for id in a bar? If u refused do you believe bar management has the right to backroom you n search your pocket for id?
Nope just asking u to leave and perhaps calling law enforcement. Thats it
Quote: IbeatyouracesThe bar isn't going to steal your identity, database it and pass it along to other establishments either.
My last club, we scanned id from everyone entering,entered it in our database and used it for both our mailing list and as a source of income.
Quote: billryanMy last club, we scanned id from everyone entering,entered it in our database and used it for both our mailing list and as a source of income.
If I saw that, I'd turn around and leave.
Depends on the casino & the chip denominations.Quote: ronniefIs there a law against leaving with the chips and having a friend or friends, if you have any, cash lower amounts for you at a later date ? Seems an obvious solution ? Plus some friends might find it exciting. You can spin a real story before asking for that favor.
I never have problem cashing black chips (without showing ID), and I've cashed a few purples for others.
Never tried yellows, browns, or any big chips.
At one casino, my friend said they would do 2 purples at the high limit cage without checking ID, and he was right.
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El Cortez actually sent someone into the bathroom to watch me count the chips I had squirreled into my pockets...who even asked me how much I won.
After that, I counted chips in bathroom stalls (not on the counter).
Lots of calls from the pit to the cashier's cage at El Cortez when cashing out a few hundred.
Never had a problem cashing $100 or $200 (in greens) on a later visit without ID though. Not sure what their "No ID" limit is.
This why I currently prefer slot machines to tables.Quote: ZenKinGAs soon as i hit the 20k win threshold at different places or close to that threshold, that's when the backoffs or preferential shuffling started to come for the most part.
Anything over $1,200 on a slot requires ID (although some people use alternate spellings, and/or fakes).
However, casinos seem to have a much higher tolerance level for AP slot players.
My experience is trouble can happen around $150K on regular slots.
Heard that $40K can be a problem for Video Poker (some posts on VPFree).
I don't have any personal friends with recent VP back-offs. Most just no-carded or no-mailed.
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On flip side, there are slot strategies which can get you 86'ed for less than $20. So there's less tolerance there than on tables.
Quote: IbeatyouracesThe bar isn't going to steal your identity, database it and pass it along to other establishments either.
No we just call the other bar down the street as a professional courtesy to advise them a possible minor is trying to buy beer.
Totally different business but taking away the AP angle, minors are an incredible potential liability. Anyone my employees card and can't provide an ID are asked to leave. Amazing how many people want to argue they are 25 or whatever. I don't care and don't need your money that bad.
Quote: BozNo we just call the other bar down the street as a professional courtesy to advise them a possible minor is trying to buy beer.
Totally different business but taking away the AP angle, minors are an incredible potential liability. Anyone my employees card and can't provide an ID are asked to leave. Amazing how many people want to argue they are 25 or whatever. I don't care and don't need your money that bad.
Right u ask them to leave. You dont force them into a basement room and force them to empty their pockets under threats and duress
Right?
Quote: darkozRight u ask them to leave. You dont force them into a basement room and force them to empty their pockets under threats and duress
Right?
Only if they are 20, hot and really want a drink.
Know I shouldn't say that because someone out there will take it seriously and call us all perverts.
But yes, I think we are all on the same page. I just see the casinos point when a potential minor is involved. However it is the rare case because if they are asking for ID, they suspect you as an AP first, a minor 2nd.
Quote: BozOnly if they are 20, hot and really want a drink.
Know I shouldn't say that because someone out there will take it seriously and call us all perverts.
But yes, I think we are all on the same page. I just see the casinos point when a potential minor is involved. However it is the rare case because if they are asking for ID, they suspect you as an AP first, a minor 2nd.
I would mostly agree, except your last. ZK is 23 or 24, and who knows how old he looks? They're going to ID him for their own protection.
Quote: IbeatyouracesIf I saw that, I'd turn around and leave.
Pretty much standard procedure in NYC. We need to know everyone who comes and goes. About once a night, we'd have someone complain but the next persons money is as good as theirs.
We had an incident a few years back where some people were hurt in a melee. Two people who weren't even there tried to sue for damages. When their lawyers learned we had scans of everyone's id, a video of the people entering ,as well as the entire fight, we never heard from them again.
Quote: billryanPretty much standard procedure in NYC. We need to know everyone who comes and goes. About once a night, we'd have someone complain but the next persons money is as good as theirs.
We had an incident a few years back where some people were hurt in a melee. Two people who weren't even there tried to sue for damages. When their lawyers learned we had scans of everyone's id, a video of the people entering ,as well as the entire fight, we never heard from them again.
I've been to one club in NYC that scanned my ID--I wouldn't exactly call it standard procedure. Doorman flashes a light on it, checks to see my birth date, checks to see the pic is me, and hands it back to me. I don't know that I'd just turn around and leave if I saw it again, but I definitely would prefer that a random business not have my personal info.
Clubs are generally a drag for dudes anyway, TBH. Luckily, Tinder and its various clones are superior substitute goods.
Quote: beachbumbabsI would mostly agree, except your last. ZK is 23 or 24, and who knows how old he looks? They're going to ID him for their own protection.
We agree, I'm just thinking of the person posting on sites like this who is being asked for ID after playing and attracting the attention on the Pit. Here in PA you are carded as you enter so I was thinking more about once you are playing.
Either way we should be in Vegas right now instead of here!
Quote: BozWe agree, I'm just thinking of the person posting on sites like this who is being asked for ID after playing and attracting the attention on the Pit. Here in PA you are carded as you enter so I was thinking more about once you are playing.
Either way we should be in Vegas right now instead of here!
Same here. And if you look young at a table game, the dealer will ask to see ID. Sometimes the supervisor will ask the dealer if he/she checked ID. But then they'll just go on their way.
If a shift manager or some other upper level person asks after you've already started play, age has nothing to do with it.
2) If you're just counting cards, you should be able to rat hole well enough to give yourself some extended life, even while rated. Yes, there comes a time that even if you rat hole you could still post a good yearly win, but if you accentuate your losses and downplay your wins and do it well, you really can keep your yearly win down low enough each and every single year... especially if you spread your play around.
3) In Vegas, since you're going to leave after showing your max bet, you should only be around for a shoe or two. No point in getting rated as then they can show your average session is 30-40 minutes. If you find more tolerant stores that allow you to "camp out" a bit more, those would be the ones to get rated at when you play for some comps.
4) Vegas is all about quantity vs quality. With rat holing and moving from place to place and spreading your action out you should be able to last a very long time, even rated (if you wanted to get some comps).
5) You should never have surrendered your ID. If it's to the point where the shift manager is asking for it, then you're already made and you should just leave immediately.
6) Axel is 100% right about your thought process and attitude. You seem to have the need to act superior like you know more than them. I don't think you could let go of your pride long enough to let the casino think what they need to think. Arguing with him, showing him you know "your rights", etc, just furthered his opinion that you were a counter and not a regular player. Then, making a scene/argument out of it just made it VERY memorable for him so your face wouldn't be forgotten anytime soon. If you do that at a couple properties when you get heat in vegas, you'll get burned out of the town in no time.
Quote: Romes1) The problem with being younger is you are going to get ID'd no matter what you do. In Vegas, you'll get ID'd at every table you sit down at if you look young, regardless if you have a players card or not. When I first went to vegas over 10 years ago I never got ID'd one time. Just this past weekend I got ID'd at nearly every table I sat down at.
2) If you're just counting cards, you should be able to rat hole well enough to give yourself some extended life, even while rated. Yes, there comes a time that even if you rat hole you could still post a good yearly win, but if you accentuate your losses and downplay your wins and do it well, you really can keep your yearly win down low enough each and every single year... especially if you spread your play around.
3) In Vegas, since you're going to leave after showing your max bet, you should only be around for a shoe or two. No point in getting rated as then they can show your average session is 30-40 minutes. If you find more tolerant stores that allow you to "camp out" a bit more, those would be the ones to get rated at when you play for some comps.
4) Vegas is all about quantity vs quality. With rat holing and moving from place to place and spreading your action out you should be able to last a very long time, even rated (if you wanted to get some comps).
5) You should never have surrendered your ID. If it's to the point where the shift manager is asking for it, then you're already made and you should just leave immediately.
6) Axel is 100% right about your thought process and attitude. You seem to have the need to act superior like you know more than them. I don't think you could let go of your pride long enough to let the casino think what they need to think. Arguing with him, showing him you know "your rights", etc, just furthered his opinion that you were a counter and not a regular player. Then, making a scene/argument out of it just made it VERY memorable for him so your face wouldn't be forgotten anytime soon. If you do that at a couple properties when you get heat in vegas, you'll get burned out of the town in no time.
Yeah you and Axel are both right and on the money, there's no point in arguing or saying something along those lines. I guess it's a flaw in my game that i need to correct, as i do have some ego problems at times, but at the same time I do want to make something clear. The whole idea of my argumentative talk with the manager wasnt so much of me 'knowing my rights' and trying to act smart and assertive, it was just my way of defending myself because i didnt think i could just leave the casino without showing them my ID and i figured i would get in trouble if i somehow didnt produce it upon their demands.
I've now come to the fact that the very best way to come out a winner in this scenario and to not look 'guilty' when requested by the shift manager or pit boss to show ID is by simply saying "I left it at home, do i have to go and get it to keep playing"? By saying this, it makes me look innocent like i have nothing to hide and it also has the added benefit that they never get my ID.
Quote: ZenKinG
I've now come to the fact that the very best way to come out a winner in this scenario and to not look 'guilty' when requested by the shift manager or pit boss to show ID is by simply saying "I left it at home, do i have to go and get it to keep playing"? By saying this, it makes me look innocent like i have nothing to hide and it also has the added benefit that they never get my ID.
Eh more like a he knows you know you have it but aren't giving it up. Kinda like when you get backed off with no reason given he knows and you know why, doesn't have to say it. Still the best move, no need to have a name attached to the event if you don't have to. If anything kinda makes it look like you've been around the block, not your first rodeo. Or can just play dumb and just keep repeating "no I don't want a card", act a little confused, and move along, haven't tried that one yet though.
Also, I would never ask if you can still play when you haven't yet been told you can't. I've had twice this scenario happen where they just say "can't be on the floor without ID gotta go." "Technically" not a backoff, more or less same thing, but still ever so slightly better. And once where just asked for a name after ID request, gave an alias and let me continue to play, left on my own shortly later.
Quote: mcallister3200Eh more like a he knows you know you have it but aren't giving it up.
Question -- maybe a stupid one -- from someone who always plays with a card and never plays BJ:
If the Floor asks to see an ID from someone who looks young enough that they just might be too young to play, and doesn't get it -- perhaps resulting in the player being required to exit the premises "until you can return with your ID, Sir" -- what would happen to the player's chips?
Seems the Floor might not let the player cash out. Perhaps the casino could "hold" the player's chips, but for whom?? "Oh, we're holding them for that player with no ID. You know, the young fella who wouldn't give his name."
I dunno, maybe the Floor would let him color up and keep his chips. But, I wouldn't want to bet on it. If the player really was too young to gamble legally, wouldn't the casino want to cover its own "assets," by keeping the chips as "evidence" and calling law enforcement? I don't think the casino would want to risk the 5-digit fines that could result because some "smart-ass punk with a phony ID" somehow may have gotten past security at the front door.
I'm not sure what the establishment would be able to protect themselves from by that point though if it is an underage patron. If they already accepted an underage patrons money, gave him chips, and allowed him to play for a length of time, I don't think requesting an ID later would do anything for them. If a bar serves someone underage four or five drinks, then requests an ID and won't serve them anymore, they've still already served an underaged patron. The timing of an ID request and by whom tells you everything you need to know if it has anything to do with age, regardless of what reason is given. In my opinion if they've already checked at the door and Someone underage has a fake ID that is their photo, appears to be valid, they've done their due diligence can't imagine they'd be liable for that, but I could be wrong.
I asked a pit manager why I was getting ID'd so much, and he said the Board of Gaming was starting to fine more dealers personally for serving under-aged clients.
Quote: mcallister3200I'm not sure what the establishment would be able to protect themselves from by that point though if it is an underage patron.
In my example, the player could have been underage, but used a phony ID when entering the casino. Security allows the entry, based on the ID as shown, but then calls surveillance. "He had an ID, but he sure looks young." Surveillance contacts the Floor, "What do you guys think?" Floor asks to see the player's ID, and the player gives some excuse (any of your own choosing, I don't care). Seems to me, the casino's actions would be reasonable in an effort to be fair to the (possibly legal) gambler and at the same time to be prudent in verifying the player's age.
But, you could be correct. I really have no "feel" for how this situation might play out.
Sometimes age 18-20 dancers play tables, but they need someone 21 or over to cash their chips. Getting a $1,200 jackpot at a slot machine doesn't work if you're underage, but apparently underage women can buy in at some tables.Quote: mcallister3200I'm not sure what the establishment would be able to protect themselves from by that point though if it is an underage patron. If they already accepted an underage patrons money, gave him chips, and allowed him to play for a length of time, I don't think requesting an ID later would do anything for them.
Casino employees may have more AP experience than anyone on this WoV board. (...and some seem really clueless).Quote: Romes6) Axel is 100% right about your thought process and attitude. You seem to have the need to act superior like you know more than them. I don't think you could let go of your pride long enough to let the casino think what they need to think.
Arguing with him, showing him you know "your rights", etc, just furthered his opinion that you were a counter and not a regular player.
Then, making a scene/argument out of it just made it VERY memorable for him so your face wouldn't be forgotten anytime soon. If you do that at a couple properties when you get heat in vegas, you'll get burned out of the town in no time.
At the Golden Nugget a decade or so ago, I was chatting with the guy in charge of the HL room. He was a former blackjack player, who's best run was roughly $900 -> $65,000 (I've forgotten the exact numbers, but it was about 70x-75x). I'm not sure what year he did his run, but you might have to multiply 3x-10X to translate that into 2017 dollars ($200K-$600K).
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...personally I just let the casino idiots be idiots (and keep my mouth shut when I know there's no chance of a better outcome). I'm not a fan of calling the Gaming Commission or using connections in Indian tribes or Casino corporate.
I'd rather have any incident fade into the past.
If you look on LinkedIn, you'll see how casino employees/management move from place to place - the VP of Table Operations at Casino X...becomes the General Manager at Casino Y. Lots of connections everywhere.
It's the long-term (10-20-30 year) version of "DON'T play during shift changes". (e.g. don't want people talking about you. just to forget about you...)
i'd rather be allowed to PLAY, than to be RIGHT.
A good way to handle a situation is to DO SOMETHING WHICH YOU DON'T POST ON-LINE.Quote: ZenKinGThe whole idea of my argumentative talk with the manager wasnt so much of me 'knowing my rights' and trying to act smart and assertive, it was just my way of defending myself because i didnt think i could just leave the casino without showing them my ID and i figured i would get in trouble if i somehow didnt produce it upon their demands.
I've now come to the fact that the very best way to come out a winner in this scenario and to not look 'guilty' when requested by the shift manager or pit boss to show ID is by simply saying "I left it at home, do i have to go and get it to keep playing"? By saying this, it makes me look innocent like i have nothing to hide and it also has the added benefit that they never get my ID.
One gambling book showed some examples of camouflage, and then said "None of these will work" because casino executives/employees read these books too. Figure out some different techniques for yourself.
Whether you get OVERLY assertive, and act like an a**hole drunk ploppy (not a knowledgable AP).
...or quiet and reclusive ... maybe talking to yourself...
...or like a overly-confident lousy counter who makes lots of mistakes
...a drug addict
...party animal out to pick up women
...sports gambler doing a little BJ while waiting for the $250K bet on the Super Bowl.
...it's all up to you. But DON"T tell us on-line (unless by PM or back-channel).
Yeah, trust no one. Life will be a breeze. Great advice. What a way to live. The good life.Quote: mamat...it's all up to you. But DON"T tell us on-line (unless by PM or back-channel).
EDIT: Is it possible that others will have or already have the same ideas that we have? How long did you say that the universe was here before us?
Yeah, this is just straight trolling with zero contribution to the actual thread, and if anything I'll argue a negative contribution to the thread since he's downing someone else actually giving advice to the OP.Quote: InTimeForSpace1Yeah, trust no one. Life will be a breeze. Great advice. What a way to live. The good life.
EDIT: Is it possible that others will have or already have the same ideas that we have? How long did you say that the universe was here before us?
Quote: beachbumbabsInTimeForSpace1 is a previously banned member, known troll, and has been nuked for duplicate accounts. Thank you all for your patience.
Remember to use holy water next time...
