New member introducing myself
It's been my experience that most casinos here use cards of similar thickness and quality. I think you should include US Playing Card co. and Gemaco as casino card manufacturers. USPCC produces Aristocrat, but also Bee, very common in casinos, and other brands sometimes used.
Most casinos I've played bring brand new decks in every 4 hours, so the cards don't have a lot.of time in play to absorb moisture or otherwise get thicker. All fwiw. Others may have more to add.
I think a few places may use cheaper cards in their midi or full baccarat table, as those cards get destroyed after a single deal. I could be wrong, but since you're looking to play bj, it likely won't affect you.
Most casinos seem to buy cards via a purchasing manager and do not use dealer input except in the Poker room where dealers are often consulted. Cards are generally retired promptly, picked up by Brother Chip, taken to prison where prison contract laborers assemble and sort fresh decks take the corner off and return the used decks to the casino for sale in the casino's gift shop.
Sounds like you're on the right track. I've been thrown off once before by a place that used some rather thin cards... At first glance I thought it was 6D when in fact it was 8D! I can understand your concern about proper deck estimation, but if you've practice at all, with any cards, you should be able to adjust pretty well. It's the skill you're practicing, not the specific kind of cards. All you need is to know the number of decks and see them in the tray once or twice at the end of shoes and your deck estimation skills should suffice well enough. I wouldn't sweat this too terribly much.
Also... CSM's are beatable =). It's tough, and a grind of a grind, that's for sure... but if you find a dealer that commonly deals 1 deck out of the CSM before re-inserting the cards, or even if you have a massive round of little cards, the next round (or two - due to the buffer) can still be played with an advantage. Unfortunately usually you have to go from betting very small to betting very big for a couple rounds. The variance is harsh. Just a thought to keep your eyes out for dealers that deal a little in to the CSM as a lot of them around here don't re-insert the cards every single hand, and a lot of CSM's only use 4 decks. Just an FYI and something to ponder!
Quote: TalmadgeThanks for the replys. I have been practicing deck estimation with paulson and bee cards. Using 6 decks which i have numbered from 1-312 underneath and cutting off different amounts and then flipping over the card to see how close my estimate was. I have noticed that the bee cards are a little thicker but as Romes mentioned once i saw the full 6 decks in the discard tray a few times my eyes adjusted. The casino in my state uses 4 decks in the CSM's and replaces the cards back into the machine after each round. I have seen rounds with a running count of 8 or 9 and i can imagine betting into a true count of 2 for the next round with a big spread the variance will be huge. If i am at the casino for an event or dinner i will watch the tables for half an hour or so just practicing my counting seeing if i can keep up with the dealer but i'm not keen on playing there. Just going to keep practicing until my trips next year. I'd be happy to hear other members tips/ideas when they were in the learning process. Thanks everyone :)
+1 on numbering the decks 1-312.
Not sure how you're practicing, but if you're putting a card card into the standing 6-decks and making your estimate then, that's not going to be too helpful in real life play (although is a good way to start practicing). What you should be doing is taking a chunk of cards off the top of the standing 6-decks and then looking at the remaining cards in the discard rack, and estimate there. That way you can't see the entire 6 decks in their entirety.
However, I wouldn't have a huge worry about accurate deck estimation. Not saying it's a bad thing to get good at it, but you don't have to be within 1/4 deck or something ridiculous like that, especially if you're playing shoe games. But you should definitely be able to see 2.5 decks and know it's about 2.5 decks (ie: 2 to 3)....not think it's 1.5 nor 3.5 decks.
If you don't have software to practice as well as sim a game, I'd definitely get some. Also, nothing like playing live. I'd say either play a CSM to get a real-life feel for it or get your wife or someone to deal a game to you on the living room table. Every now and then (say, every 1 deck), count-down the cards in the discard tray to make sure your running count is accurate. In my experience doing this, if the count was +8 after counting down the discard tray, I'd find an eight, and flip it either upside down or side-ways in the discard tray, so that next time you count-down the tray, you don't have to count the entire thing, just start where you left off, at +8. (If it's double digits, like +13, then grab two cards that add to 13, like a 7 and 6, and flip them upside down or turn them sideways together.) Be sure to occasionally "load the deck" with lots of small cards or little cards or neutral cards in the beginning of the shoe.
Get chips too, and when practicing, have the dealer make payout errors occasionally (ie: under-pay or over-pay) as well as other situations where the deal "miscounts" a total. ie: Dealer draws a 5 card 22 and thinks it's 21, so they take everyone's bets. Or you get a 20 and dealer gets a 19, and dealer thinks it's a push. It's easy to assume the dealer is doing their job properly, but that isn't to say the dealer won't make mistakes in the house's favor (don't correct a dealer's mistake in YOUR favor....at least I don't). Just ONE mistake per hour where the dealer thinks a push is a win or a loss is a push (ie: difference of 1 unit) is worth 1%. One mistake where the difference is 2 units (ie: dealer treats a player's loss as a player win) is worth 2%. [That's assuming 100 rounds per hour.] I don't know how frequently dealers make each type of mistake, but you're already dealing with a small advantage as it is. Getting swindled on one bet per hour is going to knock down your EV quite a bit, potentially making the game -EV [even with your card counting].
edit: ah, that was kind of longer than i expected.
i wouldn't worry about thickness of the cards, though.
Getting the right type of cards would be more important than brand, even if one wanted to worry about it. But, I agree with all the responses above, I wouldn't worry about the thickness of cards because you can adapt once you sit down. Plus after some real use, two identical decks are going to have different thicknesses anyway, based on how long and in what manner they were handled. I'd avoid using brand new decks for practice. I like the used ones from the gift shops, but not when they have a hole punched through them. That hole puncher royally screws up how the decks sit in the discard tray.
By the way, why would they have prisoners sorting the used decks, when the shufflers can be set to sort mode? Plus don't the pit critters have to verify and document that the decks are complete before retiring them?
Quote: TalmadgeI took up an interest in blackjack a few years ago.. . . I learnt basic strategy, high-low, illustrious 18, fab 4 and a few extra indices. . .. .I put together a bet spread and after a lot of practice. . . . i felt like i was ready to put this all together inside the casino for my first blackjack session.
Unfortunately when i arrived all i could see was CSM's all over the main floor. That threw a spanner in the works after all of my practice.
Hi, Welcome to the forum.
Boy that was a bit of wasted effort. Really should have at least taken a look in on a few real casinos and checked out the games before going to all that trouble.
Besides, there's no practice like playing for real.
Quote: FirestarterAren't all casino cards 100% plastic? It's my understanding these are the only types of cards that work in machines, but they were in use before that as far as I know. 100% plastic can't absorb moisture. (?)
Getting the right type of cards would be more important than brand, even if one wanted to worry about it. But, I agree with all the responses above, I wouldn't worry about the thickness of cards because you can adapt once you sit down. Plus after some real use, two identical decks are going to have different thicknesses anyway, based on how long and in what manner they were handled. I'd avoid using brand new decks for practice. I like the used ones from the gift shops, but not when they have a hole punched through them. That hole puncher royally screws up how the decks sit in the discard tray.
By the way, why would they have prisoners sorting the used decks, when the shufflers can be set to sort mode? Plus don't the pit critters have to verify and document that the decks are complete before retiring them?
Table games use standard playing cards you can buy in almost any store. Cards for live poker are the plastic kind.
Quote: RS+1 on numbering the decks 1-312.
Not sure how you're practicing, but if you're putting a card card into the standing 6-decks and making your estimate then, that's not going to be too helpful in real life play (although is a good way to start practicing). What you should be doing is taking a chunk of cards off the top of the standing 6-decks and then looking at the remaining cards in the discard rack, and estimate there. That way you can't see the entire 6 decks in their entirety.
However, I wouldn't have a huge worry about accurate deck estimation. Not saying it's a bad thing to get good at it, but you don't have to be within 1/4 deck or something ridiculous like that, especially if you're playing shoe games. But you should definitely be able to see 2.5 decks and know it's about 2.5 decks (ie: 2 to t think it's 1.5 nor 3.5 decks.
If you don't have software to practice as well as sim a game, I'd definitely get some. Also, nothing like playing live. I'd say either play a CSM to get a real-life feel for it or get your wife or someone to deal a game to you on the living room table. Every now and then (say, every 1 deck), count-down the cards in the discard tray to make sure your running count is accurate. In my experience doing this, if the count was +8 after counting down the discard tray, I'd find an eight, and flip it either upside down or side-ways in the discard tray, so that next time you count-down the tray, you don't have to count the entire thing, just start where you left off, at +8. (If it's double digits, like +13, then grab two cards that add to 13, like a 7 and 6, and flip them upside down or turn them sideways together.) Be sure to occasionally "load the deck" with lots of small cards or little cards or neutral cards in the beginning of the shoe.
Get chips too, and when practicing, have the dealer make payout errors occasionally (ie: under-pay or over-pay) as well as other situations where the deal "miscounts" a total. ie: Dealer draws a 5 card 22 and thinks it's 21, so they take everyone's bets. Or you get a 20 and dealer gets a 19, and dealer thinks it's a push. It's easy to assume the dealer is doing their job properly, but that isn't to say the dealer won't make mistakes in the house's favor (don't correct a dealer's mistake in YOUR least I don't). Just ONE mistake per hour where the dealer thinks a push is a win or a loss is a push (ie: difference of 1 unit) is worth 1%. One mistake where the difference is 2 units (ie: dealer treats a player's loss as a player win) is worth 2%. [That's assuming 100 rounds per hour.] I don't know how frequently dealers make each type of mistake, but you're already dealing with a small advantage as it is. Getting swindled on one bet per hour is going to knock down your EV quite a bit, potentially making the game -EV [even with your card counting].
edit: ah, that was kind of longer than i expected.
i wouldn't worry about thickness of the cards, though.
Thanks RS for your time with that detailed post. I have been cutting 1, 2, 2.5 decks etc off the top of the standing 6 decks and checking my accuracy but will now try cutting random chunks off the top and estimating what is left as you mentioned that is more like real life play than looking at the full 6 decks stacked in the discard tray. I do have a table and chips etc which i play through 2 shoes a day with either me or my girlfriend dealing. When i first started training, after a deck or two played i would count down the discard tray to check my accuracy. Sliding a card sideways with the correct running count is a good idea to save yourself from having to count through the whole lot again. I now just play through the whole shoe checking the last card which comes out to see if i was right with my count. I havent had my girlfriend make payout errors yet but that is a good idea as their is a lot to look out for and keeping track of/distractions etc during play besides the count. I have recently aquired cvbj and cvcx and seen that stacking the deck with high or low cards is an option. A good way to get the running count skyrocketing up or down(which i wouldnt play haha) There is heaps of different options on there to set up prior to starting a game it seems like i will be spending a bit of time navigating around that and getting used to it. I still prefer practicing with real cards though. One thing i have noticed while playing through shoes is the TC may go to -1 so i will stop betting but play out the remainder of the shoe without betting just to practice keeping the count. Sometimes the count can turnaround and a little later in the shoe i could of been in max bet territory if i was still betting. I have often wondered if there is a correct time to give up on a shoe depending on how far you are into it after reaching TC-1. It might be best if i start a new thread on this
Thanks again :)
