Side bet: BB (Better Blackjack)
May 15th, 2016 at 8:57:06 AM
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Hi Everyone
New to this forum mainly because I discovered a new side bet at my casino that I cannot find any details about online.
This side bet is paid out when a player is dealt a natural blackjack (dealer blackjack does not make a difference, player is always paid out).
Payouts:
Suited 40 to 1 Same suits, i.e. Ace of Hearts and King of Hearts
Same Colours 15 to 1 Different suit, but same colour, i.e. Ace of Hearts and 10 of Diamonds
Diff Colours 10 to 1 Different suit, different colour, i.e. Ace of Hearts and Queen of Spades
The casino uses a 5 Deck CSM.
Other details (if needed):
Dealer stands on soft 17.
Can double with anything and can double after split.
Blackjack pays 3 to 2.
Can surrender.
Questions:
1) What are the probabilities of getting each of the above payout bands?
2) What are the estimated returns based on the above?
3) How does this side bet effect the house edge?
Thanks in advance.
New to this forum mainly because I discovered a new side bet at my casino that I cannot find any details about online.
This side bet is paid out when a player is dealt a natural blackjack (dealer blackjack does not make a difference, player is always paid out).
Payouts:
Suited 40 to 1 Same suits, i.e. Ace of Hearts and King of Hearts
Same Colours 15 to 1 Different suit, but same colour, i.e. Ace of Hearts and 10 of Diamonds
Diff Colours 10 to 1 Different suit, different colour, i.e. Ace of Hearts and Queen of Spades
The casino uses a 5 Deck CSM.
Other details (if needed):
Dealer stands on soft 17.
Can double with anything and can double after split.
Blackjack pays 3 to 2.
Can surrender.
Questions:
1) What are the probabilities of getting each of the above payout bands?
2) What are the estimated returns based on the above?
3) How does this side bet effect the house edge?
Thanks in advance.
May 15th, 2016 at 9:06:47 AM
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You should be able to cobble together enough details from this page to get close to the edge.
https://wizardofodds.com/games/blackjack/appendix/8/
For what it's worth, you should be able to beat it with an ace count.
https://wizardofodds.com/games/blackjack/appendix/8/
For what it's worth, you should be able to beat it with an ace count.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice."
-- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
May 15th, 2016 at 9:31:56 AM
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Got most of it, not all, also just wanted to ensure my logic (and math) is correct.
Perfect BJ (got this from that link already)
Pays 40
Probability 0.01188001188
Return 0.4752004752
Colored BJ (assume the same as above as now looking to other red suit??)
Pays 15
Probability 0.01188001188
Return 0.1782001782
Red/black BJ (Really not sure about this one)
Non-BJ (Used 20 * 80 / combin(260,2)
Pays -1
Probability 0.9524799525
Return -0.9524799525
So, almost there...
Question, when you say I should be able to beat it with an ace count, are you referring to this: /games/blackjack/appendix/17/
Never used it and a little confused as to how it would work with a side bet? Or are you saying I should only place the side bet if the count from previous hand is greater or equal to 2?
Perfect BJ (got this from that link already)
Pays 40
Probability 0.01188001188
Return 0.4752004752
Colored BJ (assume the same as above as now looking to other red suit??)
Pays 15
Probability 0.01188001188
Return 0.1782001782
Red/black BJ (Really not sure about this one)
Non-BJ (Used 20 * 80 / combin(260,2)
Pays -1
Probability 0.9524799525
Return -0.9524799525
So, almost there...
Question, when you say I should be able to beat it with an ace count, are you referring to this: /games/blackjack/appendix/17/
Never used it and a little confused as to how it would work with a side bet? Or are you saying I should only place the side bet if the count from previous hand is greater or equal to 2?
May 15th, 2016 at 10:34:56 AM
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What casino is this?
No longer hiring, don’t ask because I won’t hire you either
May 15th, 2016 at 1:30:46 PM
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Why, is it a good side bet?
May 15th, 2016 at 1:57:22 PM
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It's not unless you have counted....
First hand I get return of 89.1 cents for every dollar bet.
I can imagine if you've counted 2 decks with only 4 aces out you could make a few dinars, or euros, or krona....
First hand I get return of 89.1 cents for every dollar bet.
I can imagine if you've counted 2 decks with only 4 aces out you could make a few dinars, or euros, or krona....
May 15th, 2016 at 2:13:23 PM
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Okay, think I finally got it, please confirm if this is correct:
Conclusion, house gets an extra 6.14% edge?
If that is so, interested to know if this can be beaten with an Ace count? If so, anyone kind enough to explain?
Conclusion, house gets an extra 6.14% edge?
If that is so, interested to know if this can be beaten with an Ace count? If so, anyone kind enough to explain?
| Hand | Pays | Probability Calc | Probability | Return |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Perfect | 40 | 4*5*20/combin(260,2) | 0.01188001188 | 0.4752004752 |
| Same Colour | 15 | 4*5*20/combin(260,2) | 0.01188001188 | 0.1782001782 |
| Different Colour | 10 | Prob any BJ - Prob Perfect BJ - Prob Same Colour BJ | 0.02376002376 | 0.2376002376 |
| Non-BJ | -1 | The rest | 0.9524799525 | -0.9524799525 |
| Total | 1 | -0.06147906148 |
May 15th, 2016 at 2:27:23 PM
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That doesn't seem right that the probability of a perfect BJ would be the same probability of a same color BJ.
May 15th, 2016 at 2:28:35 PM
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Quote: lbritsOkay, think I finally got it, please confirm if this is correct:
Conclusion, house gets an extra 6.14% edge?
If that is so, interested to know if this can be beaten with an Ace count?
I like my math better. I get 10.9% house edge. Definitely can periodically be beaten. Exactly how often a smarter math guy than me will be needed. You specifically mention an 'ace count'. I would guess a 'face count' would add a few times the bet would be +EV.
May 15th, 2016 at 2:33:28 PM
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Quote: rsactuaryThat doesn't seem right that the probability of a perfect BJ would be the same probability of a same color BJ.
Perfect BJ would be say Ace of Hearts and any of the hearts to complete, i.e. All King, Queen, Jack and Ten of hearts.
Same colour is the same, i.e. Ace of Hearts and any of the Diamonds to complete, i.e. All King, Queen, Jack and Ten of Diamonds.
Or is my logic totally off?
May 15th, 2016 at 2:56:22 PM
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I get:
blackjack once every 20.7 hands
1/4 of them will pay 40, for a value of 10
1/4 of them will pay 15, for a value of 3.75
1/2 of them will pay 10, for a value of 5
Every blackjack is worth 18.75
18.75/20.7 = 0.906 = 9.4% house edge
Definitely beatable. First thought is to use a count where 2-9 is +1, 10 is -1, and ace is -4
Anyone opinions on whether this is on the right track or totally off?
blackjack once every 20.7 hands
1/4 of them will pay 40, for a value of 10
1/4 of them will pay 15, for a value of 3.75
1/2 of them will pay 10, for a value of 5
Every blackjack is worth 18.75
18.75/20.7 = 0.906 = 9.4% house edge
Definitely beatable. First thought is to use a count where 2-9 is +1, 10 is -1, and ace is -4
Anyone opinions on whether this is on the right track or totally off?
May 15th, 2016 at 3:16:28 PM
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Quote: TomGI get:
blackjack once every 20.7 hands
1/4 of them will pay 40, for a value of 10
1/4 of them will pay 15, for a value of 3.75
1/2 of them will pay 10, for a value of 5
Every blackjack is worth 18.75
18.75/20.7 = 0.906 = 9.4% house edge
Definitely beatable. First thought is to use a count where 2-9 is +1, 10 is -1, and ace is -4
Anyone opinions on whether this is on the right track or totally off?
"Calling Dr. Jacobson, calling Dr. Jacobson."
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
May 15th, 2016 at 3:24:08 PM
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Welcome to the forum Ibrits. This is an excellent first thread!
Soopoo, care to explain your math? I just checked Ibrits calculation and it seems sound to me.
Soopoo, care to explain your math? I just checked Ibrits calculation and it seems sound to me.
May 15th, 2016 at 4:22:25 PM
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The casino use CSM. How can you count?
May 15th, 2016 at 5:06:05 PM
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I agree with the OP. I will post my spreadsheet up tomorrow. Removing 9 non aces and 10's changes to to a player advantage.Quote: CanyoneroWelcome to the forum Ibrits. This is an excellent first thread!
Soopoo, care to explain your math? I just checked Ibrits calculation and it seems sound to me.
“Man Babes” #AxelFabulous
May 16th, 2016 at 2:00:28 AM
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Quote: mipletI agree with the OP. I will post my spreadsheet up tomorrow. Removing 9 non aces and 10's changes to to a player advantage.
Thanks miplet and Canyonero for the confirmation of my logic.
miplet, I was also under the impression that CSM's and any sort of counting was not possible? However, if there is a way then I would be very interested to hear it. Thanks in advance.
This table I play at has this side bet as well as perfect pairs and I usually just play the basic BJ strategy and then if there has been a long run without any BB (Better BJ) or perfect pairs, then I start playing them both (or either depending what has come in the past 15+ hands). Not perfect, I know, sometimes I win and sometimes I don't. I mainly just play for fun while my family and friends burn their money in the slots. I realize the house always wins in the long run, however if I can flip the edge to my favour then that would be very interesting indeed.
May 16th, 2016 at 5:04:39 AM
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Quote: CanyoneroWelcome to the forum Ibrits. This is an excellent first thread!
Soopoo, care to explain your math? I just checked Ibrits calculation and it seems sound to me.
Gulp. I'll try. But If two people came up with a different answer I'm not betting on me.....
Chance of perfect BJ 1/13 x 20/259 + 4/13 x 5/259 = .01188
Same color BJ that's not the same suit the same as above = .01188
Different color BJ 1/13 x 40/259 + 4/13 x 10/259 = .02376
.01188 x 40 = .4752
.01188 x 15 = .1782
.02376 x 10 = .2376
I add them up and get .8910
So I see for each dollar bet you get .891 dollars back.
May 16th, 2016 at 7:06:11 AM
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This.Quote: FranciscoThe casino use CSM. How can you count?
Playing it correctly means you've already won.
May 16th, 2016 at 3:50:14 PM
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Quote: SOOPOOGulp. I'll try. But If two people came up with a different answer I'm not betting on me.....
Your math was for "for 1" , but the OP said "to 1".
My deck composition editable spreadsheet is at http://miplet.net/blackjack/betterbj.xlsx .
“Man Babes” #AxelFabulous
May 17th, 2016 at 7:51:08 PM
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Quote: WizardofnothingWhat casino is this?
I hear it is in South Africa.
Stephen Au-Yeung (Legend of New Table Games®) NewTableGames.com
May 21st, 2016 at 3:05:09 AM
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Quote: MrCasinoGamesI hear it is in South Africa.
This man has contacts (unless you have been speaking to miplet) :)
Unfortunately, as has been pointed out a couple of times, they use CSM's so no way to count to turn the edge to the players advantage :(
May 21st, 2016 at 6:57:45 AM
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Quote: lbrits
Unfortunately, as has been pointed out a couple of times, they use CSM's so no way to count to turn the edge to the players advantage :(
I don't thing this is true.
If you take a look at miplet's deck composition spreadsheet you will see that the side bet EV can become positive with as few as 9 cards removed from the deck. This means you should be able to take advantage of the small card buffer that CSMs use, and only play the side bet when it is positive.
