Golden Touch Blackjack, Speed Count
Thanks in advance.
This system is one step above basic strategy and is good for the once or twice a year recreational player. I doubt that any serious player would use it. If you are serious try KO or HiLo.
Quote: only1choiceThank you for your response. One thing thou, I thought the Ace-Five count was the system one step above basic strategy.
Correct. I was trying to emphasize that it was a weak system and that there are better systems out there.
I do believe Speed Count could overcome the house edge and possibly be a break even game. Just be aware of the variance and plan your bank roll accordingly.
The Golden Touch calculations were done by Dan Provonost, whom I respect. However, they have been challenged by Norm Wattenberger, whom I also also respect. At the time I provided a quote for Golden Touch I didn't know about Norm's skepticism, otherwise I would have held back from giving an endorsement.
If you are spreading $50-$500 at Mohegan Sun, given their very poor penetration, and using speed count, I hope you've have a substantial bankroll behind you. Getting your ROR under 10% would probably required $250,000+.
Anyone betting that kind of money should put in a modicum of effort to learn KO or Hi-Lo.
Quote: WizardI can't reveal the basic idea of the Speed Count, but it is a simplified version of card counting. It is easier to use than the hi-lo, and less powerful. The same could be said about my ace-five count as well.
The Golden Touch calculations were done by Dan Provonost, whom I respect. However, they have been challenged by Norm Wattenberger, whom I also also respect. At the time I provided a quote for Golden Touch I didn't know about Norm's skepticism, otherwise I would have held back from giving an endorsement.
I think the issue is that "it depends". If you are only interested in counting for recreational purposes with a replenishable trip bankroll and a fixed betting scheme, you should probably compare earning rates for comparable variance (Short term risk depends mostly on the fluctuations). Depending on exactly how you do this, you can find Speed Count performing at about 60% of the earning capability of Hi-Lo (with indexes).
However, for a 'professional' who uses proportional, optimal betting with a dedicated (non-replenishable) bankroll, Speed count is way too weak to even be considered. The professional has to be concerned with long term ruin, and this goes like the expectation^2/variance, for proportional (kelly) betting. When you match the long term ruin probabilities, you find that Speed count has about 1/3 the earning power for the professional (as Norm has pointed out many times).
For me, I just don't find speed count to be that much easier... Isn't the hardest part just remembering the count with all the distractions? Also, it is kind of a dead end. If you start with something like KO or Hi Lo lite, you can always improve it by adding indexes, true counting, etc.
Quote: WizardI can't reveal the basic idea of the Speed Count, but it is a simplified version of card counting. It is easier to use than the hi-lo, and less powerful. The same could be said about my ace-five count as well.
The Golden Touch calculations were done by Dan Provonost, whom I respect. However, they have been challenged by Norm Wattenberger, whom I also also respect. At the time I provided a quote for Golden Touch I didn't know about Norm's skepticism, otherwise I would have held back from giving an endorsement.
I read this the book on this and thought about using the "Speed Count" and the Wizard's simple strategy. I am not trying to be an AP but I want something that I can look at easily (I printed out cards that I can read--the regular strategy cards are too small for me to see well) and also is easy to count. If I decide that I like trying to count and also learning more about basic strategy, then I would expand on both sides...better strategy and better counting methods.
Has anything happened regarding the validity of this counting system???
My goal is to have more fun playing blackjack and cut the edge down as much as I can. That is the key factor--I'm not great at memorizing things so basic strategy for all of the games will take a long time to learn. The same for counting...I'd just like an easy count that gives me an idea when to bet 2x or 3x my pitiful initial bet. I'm just trying to see if I can get a little better incrementally and decide whether I want to play the game or not...
I also don't want to spend endless hours online learning to count. I will spend some time doing that, but I have better things to do...that is why I am not trying to be an AP. I realize my limitations...
I do know one thing already...I can't count anything when dealers are too fast and I have been drinking!!
Quote: joehypnosisI also just started using Speed Count. I found that the system is also called Easy OPP, put forward by another party (who didn't copyright it!). OPP was unveiled on Arnold Snyder's site and there are a few articles on it there. Despite comments that more complex systems will yield better results, I would point out the Arnold seems quite vocal in his support of Easy OPP as a legit and useful system. Knowing that he is a proponent of OPP, such as it is, has let me feel a bit more comfortable exploring this system despite the frequent criticisms I've read.
Speed Count has about one third the power of Hi- Lo with indices and wonging. You should find that both KO and Hi -Lo are almost as easy to learn. If you are playing for comps, Speed Count might be ok. If you are serious about having an advantage and actually making money, you are going to need something stronger.
If you do decide to use Speed Count, I'd like to hear your results after 1000 hours of play or even 500 hours.
Quote: benbakdoffYou should find that both KO and Hi -Lo are almost as easy to learn.
I have to concur here. Of all the claims about Speed Count, the "Easy" part I just don't get! It doesn't seem easier to me.
Quote: benbakdoffSpeed Count has about one third the power of Hi- Lo with indices and wonging. You should find that both KO and Hi -Lo are almost as easy to learn....
If you do decide to use Speed Count, I'd like to hear your results after 1000 hours of play or even 500 hours.
Ha! Well, if you want to hear my results after 1000 hours of play, check back in a couple decades. That request pretty well sums up the problem in discussing Speed Count or OPP. I will be happy, however, to write about my impressions of the system after I've played it long enough to know if I want to continue using it. Likely after another 5 or 6 trips.
I think there is a language problem also. For someone to comment that hi-low or KO are "as easy to learn as Speed Count," what is being incorrectly implied is that they are as easy to implement, which is clearly incorrect. Someone can learn and begin using SpeedCount/OPP accurately in the same weekend. There simply isn't much to "practice." The same can't be said for hi-low or KO.
People interested in simpler systems understand that the fewer cards they track, the less precise the data they get.
Quote: joehypnosisHa! Well, if you want to hear my results after 1000 hours of play, check back in a couple decades. That request pretty well sums up the problem in discussing Speed Count or OPP. I will be happy, however, to write about my impressions of the system after I've played it long enough to know if I want to continue using it. Likely after another 5 or 6 trips.
I think there is a language problem also. For someone to comment that hi-low or KO are "as easy to learn as Speed Count," what is being incorrectly implied is that they are as easy to implement, which is clearly incorrect. Someone can learn and begin using SpeedCount/OPP accurately in the same weekend. There simply isn't much to "practice." The same can't be said for hi-low or KO.
People interested in simpler systems understand that the fewer cards they track, the less precise the data they get.
You made a post and didn't like the response so you implied that there was a language problem. Perhaps it's a comprehension problem since you misquoted me. I said ALMOST as easy to learn. If you can do simple arithmetic you can learn Hi-Lo. Your statement about evaluating something after 5 or 6 trips pretty well sums up your approach to blackjack.
Welcome to the forum. There is much to be learned here.
As a recreational player who gets to a casino every couple months, yes, if I didn't feel the system was effective after a year of playing, I would not continue with it. Or alternatively I could just keep at it even if it proves to be a worthless system and is failing me miserably....
zero
zero
Quote: DrEntropyYes, Always hit a hard 7 or lower. I just looked at the book, and agree it is not crystal clear in the presentation... but this is what you should do.
I just got an email back from Dan Pronovost and he confirms that hitting for all dealer up cards with a 7 or lower is the correct play as well.
Thanks
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--Joe
I find it easy to use and love the lack of heat.
Quote: aceofspadesI have used Speed Count for the past 2 1/2 years and am +$27k in that time playing black chips spreading only 1-4 units
I find it easy to use and love the lack of heat.
Congratulations! To better understand your success please tell us the exact rules of the game, the number of decks, the penetration and total hours played.
Quote: 1BBCongratulations! To better understand your success please tell us the exact rules of the game, the number of decks, the penetration and total hours played.
Sorry - that was my first post - here were the rules:
Atlantic City
6decks
70% penetration
$100minimum
3:2 blackjack
No surrender
Insure any hand
Dealer Stands on soft 17
Double after Split
Double any two cards
Split Aces only once (no hitting on split Aces)
total hours plead varied per session ( I do not go to an ATM or take a marker if I lose my bankroll) - I averaged one trip per month (meaning Friday afternoon to Sunday morning (no playing on Sunday-just check out and head home)) - average play time would be 2 hours per day
2010 I was +$45k
2011 I was -$18k
2012 so far I am even steven on two trips
and, as always - good luck to all my fellow players!
I hope this information was complete (please let me know what else you would like to know and I would be happy to post)
It looks like the wheels came off in 2011 so try to remember what you did in 2010. I think Dan and Frank would be very proud of the success of one of their students.
Quote: 1BBThanks. What is your bankroll if I may ask? The house edge on this game is 0.42622% and is the best Atlantic City has to offer, unfortunately. My quick math shows that for 2010 you played 48 hours and won 45k which amounts to a whopping $937 per hour.
It looks like the wheels came off in 2011 so try to remember what you did in 2010. I think Dan and Frank would be very proud of the success of one of their students.
In 2010 I did not have a losing trip - every trip made the casino my ATM machine ( I hope to repeat this pattern in 2012 )
Well, my thoughts on what happened in 2011 was that when I lost money I ended up chasing it back rather than just sticking to the count ( I know I know - I made a losing situation worse by doing this). However, that was the net result for the year -there were winning trips. I have had two trips thus far in 2012 (if you count New Year's day lol - wherein I lost $5,000 in the course of the weekend (6 hours play). Last week I played a total of four shoes (3 sessions of 1 shoe each and 2 sessions of 1/2 shoe each and won $5,400).
My usual bankroll is $10k
I am heading down this weekend so I will keep you updated on my sessions each day (if you'd like).
6deck
DAS
double any 2 cards
S17
bankroll $10k
$100min. table
bet spread 1-5
Started out great with the Speed Count - my usual play is to play until I am up $1k then take a break to relax - walk on the boardwalk, shop, etc.
First shoe net was $900
Second and third shoes netted $1,500
Fourth shoe netted $800
Fifth shoe netted $900
This is where it gets nuts
I was Speed Counting as usual and was in a low count at the beginning of a shoe - lost about 6 hands in a row and the count started to climb back up - started going one win one loss until the count was at the magic number of Speed Count ("31") - I spread up to 2 units and continued one win one loss and the count went up to "33" - I increased my bet to $300 and the dealer proceeded to get a blackjack - but, tons of little cards for the players so the count got up to "35" - I pushed up $500 and got 8,8 (other two players at table each had 20's) with the dealer showing a 6 upcard - I split the 8's and received, yup, another 8 - split that so now have 3 bets of $500 each...on the first 8 I was dealt a 3 (doubled down (another $500)) and received the dreaded Ace (ughhhhhh) - on the next 8 I was dealt a Q and on the final 8 I Was dealt a 10...I was happy, especially since the dealer had the 6 upcard - dealer turns over her downcard to reveal a K - I admit I was counting my chickens before they hatched as, she moved her hand to the shoe and pulled her next card - it was as if in slow motion that I saw it - taunting me, laughing at me - the 3 of clubs!!! Costing me about half of what I was up in one hand...
I ended up playing three more shoes (more conservatively (and yes, I know, "scared money doesn't win")) and getting it back in positive counts - tipped the dealer and went to bed up $4,300 for the weekend
It is a wager like that that reminds me that even advantage players can run into bad cards in a great count (and please, for you Hi-Lo, KO, Mentor counters who abhor the speed count---I know I know I am gaining less of an advantage but, I prefer the simplicity of the speed count and am comfortable with it)
And, as always, good luck to you all!!!
Reminds me of Ken Uston' book and his experience it AC one week. Still had early surrender and Ken Was being called into positive shoes. His average bet was in the $1,000 to $2,000 range. At the end of the week he was down $230,000 and would have been down another $30,000 were it not for ES . So playing nothing but positive counts , and without ES, he would have lost over a quarter of a million dollars.
That being said, your bankroll of only 20 times your big bet, seems a little light. And how much did your conservative play cost you ?
Not being critical, just asking !
Quote: buzzpaff" It is a wager like that that reminds me that even advantage players can run into bad cards in a great count"
Reminds me of Ken Uston' book and his experience it AC one week. Still had early surrender and Ken Was being called into positive shoes. His average bet was in the $1,000 to $2,000 range. At the end of the week he was down $230,000 and would have been down another $30,000 were it not for ES . So playing nothing but positive counts , and without ES, he would have lost over a quarter of a million dollars.
That being said, your bankroll of only 20 times your big bet, seems a little light. And how much did your conservative play cost you ?
Not being critical, just asking !
Well, the conservative play probably cost me winning bigger than I did - I suppose limiting my spread when I played "scared" to $200 instead of $500 cost me a couple thousand dollars - however, I was happy with my net gain of the weekend
Quote: buzzpaff" cost me a couple thousand dollars" Those thousands do add up. Or as my US Senator once told me, " Gee, a billion dollars here' a billion dollars there, before you know it, it adds up to some real money ! "
I know I know - I tend to be of the mindset to reduce my losses and win modestly - the second coming of Ken Uston I am not! :)
Quote: buzzpaffYou do not want to be Ken. What a loser! Left his wife and 2 little girls for gambling and drugs. Yet his daughter is trying to get a movie done about him and ,like most daughters ,vigorously defends her late dad.
Yeah, I heard her interview on "Gambling with an Edge" - and in no way did I mean to be "like him" in that sense - I meant with the large bet spreads!
Everybody needs a fix, but if you are lucky your addiction is not destructive !~
Quote: buzzpaffSeems like you know what you are doing? Gambling is an addiction, but so is everything in life. I have seen people destroyed by drugs, gambling, religion, pornography, soccer, whatever.
Everybody needs a fix, but if you are lucky your addiction is not destructive !~
May we all be blessed with that type of luck - to have gambling remain a fun-filled past-time rather than a deadly addiction.
Quote: buzzpaff" It is a wager like that that reminds me that even advantage players can run into bad cards in a great count"
Reminds me of Ken Uston' book and his experience it AC one week. Still had early surrender and Ken Was being called into positive shoes. His average bet was in the $1,000 to $2,000 range. At the end of the week he was down $230,000 and would have been down another $30,000 were it not for ES . So playing nothing but positive counts , and without ES, he would have lost over a quarter of a million dollars.
That being said, your bankroll of only 20 times your big bet, seems a little light. And how much did your conservative play cost you ?
Not being critical, just asking !
Not only is the bankroll a little light it's inviting disaster. The bankroll of many APs is 100 to 200 times their max bet. With the wild swings of Speed Count, I don't know if even that 's enough.
Quote: 1BBNot only is the bankroll a little light it's inviting disaster. The bankroll of many APs is 100 times their max bet. With the wild swings of Speed Count, I don't know if even that 's enough.
Well - I agree the bigger the bankroll the better - but, I tend to play very conservatively and rarely bet more than $500 in a hand (and that is a lot for me) - I usually bet $100 then increase to $300 in a good count - does it lessen my overall wins - yes, but it also limits my losses.
Quote: midwestgbNo shame whatsoever in playing Speed Count. You are not making your living at Blackjack, quite obviously. I play a 'lazy' version of Speed Count, and am quite happy doing so. Unless one is making their livelihood at the game, the method of play should simply meet the level of intellectual investment that you, the player, find most rewarding and enjoyable.
Thanks midwestgb - I do not do this for a living but go twice a month to have good meals, see a free concert, hang out with family - and play blackjack - and, if I can gain a slight advantage by speed counting - might as well do it!
Quote: aceofspadesMay we all be blessed with that type of luck - to have gambling remain a fun-filled past-time rather than a deadly addiction.
From age 16 to 28 I led a very productive life. I was already too tall to be a jockey, but hustled pool and duckpins, dealt 5 card stud,
ran bets and payoffs for a bookie. Then at 22 ,the draft notice came. I enlisted in USAF for 4 years before opening the mail. My kid brother open his draft notice and he was in the Marines. At least he came out with a trade. Mine Maintenance LOL Actually at Quantonimo and had to dig up mine fields to make sure mines were there and good. Real call for that in civilian life.
At 26, resumed the good life for 2 years , then joined the DARK SIDE. Honked my horn at a cute girl in a mini-skirt. 6 months later,
I had a straight job ( at&t tech ) , was married, and even paying taxes. GRRRRR
Only regret is that I did not read Dick Francis novels earlier. At 6ft and 155-165 , I might have become a hurdle jockey.
Too soon old, too late smart.
new table games. Feel like a goat entered in the Kentucky Derby. LOL
Quote: buzzpaffNo, but I am entered in the biggest race of my life. Somehow i have wound up in the starting gate of Shufflemaster Focus group on
new table games. Feel like a goat entered in the Kentucky Derby. LOL
I can barely play blackjack let alone attempting to figure out new table games!!!
SISSY blackjack. LOL
Quote: Mikey75I know this is a old thread but I would like to ask Ace how speed count is working out for him. Are you still using it? What's your stats the last couple of years if you are still using speed count?
Over 4 years I am in the positive :)
