Is this Card Counting behavior reasonable?

Are these vignettes of Card Counting taken from a Vegas-related website reasonable as to amount, time and behavior of the parties involved?
It seems to me card counters would be more clever and would use team play techniques. It also seems to be the casinos are not likely to be quite so prompt in their actions. I'm also uncertain of this three thousand dollars in ten minutes.


Saturday night about three weeks ago three of us bought in for $500 each. Our buy in did attract some attention from the PB, but our bet spreads for the first hour were so under control that she hardly paid notice to us. Deck after deck hardly warranted a big spread -- card counter purgatory. After the first hour each we were up a total of $100.

Then the fit hit the shan. Not only did deck after deck go really positive, but all of us got into situations involving double downs and splits, re-splits, double after splits, not to mention numerous blackjacks. We won almost every hand with big bets. In the span of 10 minutes we went from being up a few hundred to being up over $3000. The PB had no idea what just happened. She just stood there with her arms crossed (the typical PB) with a look on her face of disbelief. One minute we were typical ploppies betting $25 a hand, the next minute we had cleaned out the chip tray. It was amusing watching her trying to count all the chips we had accumulated in front of us. This would not be tolerated for much longer. It was time to go. We colored up and cashed out.

We decided to hit them again the next day, but on a different shift. I fully concede this was a mistake. We pounded them again for about an hour and withdrew almost $2000 dollars. This time things got very sweaty -- PB's with arms crossed, phone ringing, pit meetings, the usual nonsense. Time to go -- any more of this and the hammer was coming down hard on us.

We decided to return the next day to hit them again. Pure foolishness on our part. Just being greedy and not caring will get you tossed out of most places.

We sat down and bought in for $300 each. The PB immediately gave us a "look." Instantly he got on the phone -- he had a very brief conversation. Then the phone rang about a minute later. He picked it up and nodded his head while glancing over at us. The hammer was coming... We should have never gone back to this place for the 3rd time. He got off the phone and walked over to us. We were done. This might have been one of the fastest back offs on record -- about 5 minutes after we sat down. He told the dealer to not deal any cards and asked to speak with us away from the table.

"Gentleman, while we appreciate your business at _________________, your blackjack play is just too good for us. You are more than welcome to play any other table games like roulette or craps, but you can't play at our blackjack tables anymore. You don't have to leave the casino, just no more blackjack. Sorry."

What's the moral to this story? If you are counting cards never return to the same place the next day. Give it some time -- at least 3 months before you return to hit them again. We should have learned our lesson from our back off at the Mirage, but once again just being a bit too greedy (and just not giving a rip), led to our downfall.
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We are about 15 minutes into our session You are no longer allowed to play blackjack at the Mirage."

I do find it amazing how a place like the Mirage views card counters as such a threat. That place takes huge action everyday in all of kinds of table games, including blackjack. For them to run us out of there because we had a 6x bet spread from $50-$300 is amusing. One would think that the "small" players such as ourselves could fly below the radar in the joint. Apparently skilled blackjack players are not welcome, especially ones who vary their bets.

Saturday, July 24, 2010
Backed off at the South Point
The South Point hotel and casino does not tolerate card counters. The South Point (aka Sweat Point) also has some of the rudest and most unfriendly pit bosses in the city. Skilled blackjack players are treated with contempt and are viewed as a nuisance.

Prior to our backoff we had played at the SP 2-3 times since January 2010. Each time we were sweated out of the place by PB's staring at us, arms crossed, the usual nonsense. What is so ridiculous is that our bet amounts and spreads were really not that crazy. We played $25 min. and spread upto $100, sometimes $125. For this small action to cause such panic in the SP pit is frankly embarassing.

Quote: FleaStiff

"Gentleman, while we appreciate your business at _________________,....

I don't think the Wiz objects to having casinos being named, regardless of the reason or context.

Quote: FleaStiff

One would think that the "small" players such as ourselves could fly below the radar in the joint.

It's not the buy-in that defines how big you are, but how much you took away on the previous visits.

Quote: FleaStiff

Apparently skilled blackjack players are not welcome, especially ones who vary their bets.

Vary their bet? Isn't that the entire point of counting? To increase the bet when the cards favor the player?

Quote: FleaStiff

Are these vignettes of Card Counting taken from a Vegas-related website reasonable as to amount, time and behavior of the parties involved?

No, I don't think they are...

Quote:

Saturday night about three weeks ago three of us bought in for $500 each. Our buy in did attract some attention from the PB, but our bet spreads for the first hour were so under control that she hardly paid notice to us. Deck after deck hardly warranted a big spread -- card counter purgatory. After the first hour each we were up a total of $100.

Then the fit hit the shan. Not only did deck after deck go really positive, but all of us got into situations involving double downs and splits, re-splits, double after splits, not to mention numerous blackjacks. We won almost every hand with big bets. In the span of 10 minutes we went from being up a few hundred to being up over $3000.

$3000 is a LOT of money, but it's not enough to handle the "splits, re-splits, double after splits..." with "big bets." I also can't believe it's enough to warrant the kind of attention that the poster claims occurred. At my local casinos, there's almost always someone betting $500-$1K/hand. I can't believe they'd care about handing out $2k to an advantage player or two.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

I don't think the Wiz objects to having casinos being named, regardless of the reason or context.

Thank you. The omitted name was in the original blog. Its a blog that I enjoyed reading when I happened upon it, but I felt a bit strangely doubtful that the author was being frank and thought a good deal of embellishment might be taking place. I just was not sure and sort of wanted some opinions from people who were aware of card counting activities.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

Vary their bet? Isn't that the entire point of counting? To increase the bet when the cards favor the player?

Yes. It is the point of counting though often the counters signal a confederate do actually do the increased betting while the counters themselves simply plod along so as to avoid detection. Thus the casino personnel see an actual counter as someone who is sitting there making the same size bets all the time and is therefore not particularly suspicious.

Omitted name? I didn't realize that it wasn't a first-hand story.

Confederates? Yeah, I hadn't thought of that either.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

I didn't realize that it wasn't a first-hand story.

Oh, LOL. How on earth could I count cards? I have to take my shoes off to get past ten! No, it was a website that I encountered and although it was enjoyable and the blogger is not selling anything ... I just felt it didn't quite ring true. Quite frankly, if the various card counters here on the WOV site told me that winning 3,000 dollars in ten minutes was reasonable, I just might try to become a better blackjack player.

I find it strange that the blogger didn't mention the name of the casino in that particular entry. He/She was quick to mention the Mirage and South Point, but for some reason left the other one blank. That doesn't make any sense to me. The blogger has no reason to "protect" the casino, so why not just say the name of the casino.

Not until I started reading here did I believe there were any bigger tall-tale story-tellers than that of the video poker crowd who seem to want others to believe in the unbelievable. From all that I see here, there are so many expert BJ card-counters all over the place that it's a wonder any casino is still in business.

The first thing card-counters want others to believe is that they terrify casino PB's. Then they want us to believe they can withdraw $$ at will. Finally, they want people to believe they're banned from playing. I don't believe any of it, just like I don't believe vp AP's do anything but add to the profits of a casino. If you're willing to read a good variety of articles across the Internet that don't cater to these "hero-worshipping" fantasies but instead deal with the truth in an open-minded fashion, you'll find that a lot of what you thought was real is in fact not even close to it.

I guess that's the purpose of forums. People can daydream until their hearts are all warm and fuzzy, and the anxiety level becomes an ever-lasting state of euphoria.

Quote: konceptum

I find it strange that the blogger didn't mention the name of the casino in that particular entry. He/She was quick to mention the Mirage and South Point, but for some reason left the other one blank. That doesn't make any sense to me. The blogger has no reason to "protect" the casino, so why not just say the name of the casino.

Now that you mention it, that does seem to be an additional "red flag". I hadn't thought of that at all. The original blog post omitted the name ostensibly because they had backed him off in a very nice manner whereas The Mirage and South Point had backed him off rudely and, he felt, prematurely. I guess my vague suspicions about that blog were well founded. I just wasn't sure at all. The Vegas-related music was nice though. Maybe this particular blogger is also a fisherman and is used to spinning yarns about the one that got away. For a while there, I had dreams of becoming a card counter despite my inability to add up my hand in a timely manner.

We all need to remember card counting only adds up to 2% advantage, a peep more than basic strategy it is likely this was a run of good luck. However I have gotten some looks playing BJ with a 10-30 spread obviously counting. The pit bosses seem to care because they have to watch the casinos money but they know in the longrun the majority of the people end up losers no matter how well they can count.

These guys sound like morons. I don't see why they are incredulous at being backed off after going to the same casino on three consecutive days after big wins. One of the cardinal rules of card counting is not to go back to the well too often, or it will dry up. They should not have been surprised to be backed off. The Mirage story is typical -- Mirage have a reputation for being very sharp in the pit and watch their $25-$50 DD games (there are only a couple tables) very closely. They will boot you quickly if your spread gets greedy. The South Point is another sweat joint; not sure why anyone would even bother going there -- it's run by the same people who own the El Cortez, for god's sake.
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The best book I've read about low stakes card counting in Vegas is "You've Got Heat" by "Barfarkel." It really is a true-to-life story of day-to-day card counting without aggrandizement.

Quote: NicksGamingStuff

We all need to remember card counting only adds up to 2% advantage, a peep more than basic strategy it is likely this was a run of good luck. However I have gotten some looks playing BJ with a 10-30 spread obviously counting. The pit bosses seem to care because they have to watch the casinos money but they know in the longrun the majority of the people end up losers no matter how well they can count.

I'm getting a little worried about things now. I have no trouble and get no heat for counting around here (MN). I can even be pretty blatant about it with the casino employees who know me. I've gone so far as to say "damnit John! (floorman) Please don't talk to me right now. That thing we don't talk about is in the place where I want it to be." Maybe it has something to do with the fact that the counting still doesn't help me win?

But about the worried part...How much do I need to scale back/tone down when I go to Vegas in Oct?

Quote: rdw4potus

But about the worried part...How much do I need to scale back/tone down when I go to Vegas in Oct?

Depends. How much do you spread? Are you a primarily red-chip player or do you use a $25 unit? If you play red, you probably won't get that much heat in the locals' casinos or downtown where the best games are. If you play green, and spread 1-6 or 1-8, you will get some heat at the strip casinos where you would be playing. It's always a good idea to not advertise your card counting (duh). Nobody will care if you are losing. If you are winning a lot, and quickly, the best thing to do is to leave and come back (much) later. Since it is your first trip (?), you have an advantage since you are a new face and can try out a bunch of places. My advice would be to rent a car, spread your action around, and don't be too blatant about your counting. Also, play short sessions, and don't forget to give some play where you are staying to keep your rating up, and for comps.

Quote: rdw4potus

Maybe it has something to do with the fact that the counting still doesn't help me win?

Ya think?

LOL DJ! The edge is too much to overcome. I play quarters to get the right to surrender, but all tables are H17 and 6 deck. So I'm humping a .4-.5% HA just to break even. I do come out marginally ahead, but not enough to cause a problem. I should have said "the counting still doesn't help me win BIG."

I've actually been messing around lately with the martingale-masked spreading idea that was discussed on this board recently. I'll martingale from $25-$200, feign the lack of fortitude to make a $400 or $800 bet when required, then "grow a set" and make the $800 bet(s) when there's a good count. This has been more successful than my previous methods, but it requires more cash (and chips in play) than I'm really comfortable with.

Quote: teddys

These guys sound like morons. I don't see why they are incredulous at being backed off after going to the same casino on three consecutive days after big wins. Mirage have a reputation for being very sharp in the pit and watch their $25-$50 DD games very closely. They will boot you quickly if your spread gets greedy. The South Point is another sweat joint; not sure why anyone would even bother going there.

Morons. Yes. That is partly what made me suspicious as to whether the events had actually taken place or were being substantially embellished. The weblog was interesting but it seemed strange that an experienced and capable card counter would be so utterly stupid over and over again. I mean: How did he get to be such a good blackjack player and good card counter if he is so utterly stupid as to bring such attention to himself and his fellow card counters?

Another thing I find odd about people who state they've been asked to leave the casino. It seems like this is contrary to what the casino would actually want. Consider the story the OP's blogger told. Went to a casino 2 days in a row and won a ton of money. Showed up on the third day. At this point, if I'm the Pit Boss and feel that this person or these people are counters, the first thing I'd like to do is get their money. It's my understanding that some dealers, more PB's, and even more camera security people are capable of counting the cards along with the players. If that's the case, why don't they just shuffle the shoe when the count is in the player's favor? In other words, when the count is even or against the player, continue to let then play. You are gaining your 0.5% or 1.0% or whatever the house edge is for blackjack, and you should have no problem if people are playing that, no matter who they are, or how much they are betting. Once the count gets to a player advantage side, shuffle the shoe. This will either cause the card counters to continue to play at a disadvantage, or to leave. In either case, you can't get blamed for having ejected a potential card counter.

Now, I will admit that I do not completely understand the card counting and how it works. But it seems like this methodology would be much more effective than just asking people to leave.

I think most casinos do try to chat with a counter so as to throw off his concentration. After that there may be some Pit Boss Stare posturing and similar cheap tricks. There may be betting limitations and then simply a 'no more blackjack, play anything else' statement. Formal "leave the premises" orders would be a rare last-resort. As was posted above, most casinos simply want to get their money back from the card counter!

I think I've decided that the site I encountered has some good Vegas-related music on it and some Vegas related stories that can best be described as containing various elements of truth but largely would be "fishing tales" about the one that got away.

This is the site...

http://jimmyhoofa-lv.blogspot.com/2010/08/incident-report-backed-off-at.html

Quote: konceptum

Now, I will admit that I do not completely understand the card counting and how it works. But it seems like this methodology would be much more effective than just asking people to leave.

I think, the problem with it is that it'll make many people who do not count leave as well. I for one would not play at a casino that practices preferential shuffle. I count sometimes, but don't most of the time - first, because I am a small bettor, an my bankroll does not allow for spreads large enough to matter, second, because I play for fun, not for profit, and find counting sufficiently hard to take most of the fun out of the experience for me, make it a lot more like work than entertainment. But I would not play at all if they started shuffling whenever they like - I figure, even when I am not counting, I get more winning hands when the count is positive, and therefore would lose more if they did not let me play in those situations.

Quote: teddys

The South Point is another sweat joint; not sure why anyone would even bother going there -- it's run by the same people who own the El Cortez, for god's sake.

I don't know, I've taken six figures out of both those joints.
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Quote:

The best book I've read about low stakes card counting in Vegas is "You've Got Heat" by "Barfarkel." It really is a true-to-life story of day-to-day card counting without aggrandizement.

Please tell me this is a joke...

Quote: RussHaley

I don't know, I've taken six figures out of both those joints.
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Please tell me this is a joke...

That's easy enough to do. Just walk in with seven figures.

Quote: FleaStiff

One minute we were typical ploppies betting $25 a hand, the next minute we had cleaned out the chip tray. It was amusing watching her trying to count all the chips we had accumulated in front of us.

A chip-tray would contain just a few more then $3K- hell most chip trays would have $1K chips or at least $500 chips... and after you have about 20 or so of one type they start to give you the next denomination if your just winning and winning. This is the harderst bit to swallow for me personally.

Quote: RussHaley

I don't know, I've taken six figures out of both those joints.
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Please tell me this is a joke...

Not a joke. Why, what do you suggest?

What kind of chip tray only has $3k? Heck, I once won close to that amount on a single hand and pit boss didn't even seem to care. I have never been to Vegas but in Macau I have seen many low roller trays with over HKD500,000 (US$70,000).

Most likely it's just a regular homebrew variety tall tale/exaggeration. Probably based on a real account of a lucky streak winning a few hundred parlaying bets on a $10 table, being complimented, becoming the talk of the table for a while, and being asked if they were counting. Then either attributing the success to a few "10 are high, 3-6 are low" tidbits picked up somewhere or just extrapolating to how much cooler it would go if they were counting.

Of course could be based on something more, but the parts that talk about money don't sound like someone used to bankrolls and swings involved in advantage play. Let's face it, even most people who think they are counting, aren't (i.e. they miscount, don't raise their bets enough, forget indexes), much less people who just say they count when attributing their wins to it.

Quote: P90

Most likely it's just a regular homebrew variety tall tale/exaggeration.

Yeah, they make jokes about fishermen telling tall tales... but it seems gamblers can be worse. The fishermen know they are fibbing, the gamblers believe their own tales.

>Let's face it, even most people who think they are counting, aren't (i.e. they miscount, don't raise their bets enough, forget indexes).
Then why are casinos so paranoid about BJ card-counters?
According to the blog on which I based this thread, he regularly plays with a few buddies who are all determined and rather obvious card counters varying bets from 25 to 125.