Advice for "new" BJ player who wants to go pro

I'm new to this forum so let me introduce myself to everyone real fast before I get heavy into this thread, I go by the nickname "Trice"

I've been gaming since 21 and always been playing roulette, i've always had an incredibly lucky streak in that game.

I learned blackjack and basic stratagey at a young age but never really cared for blackjack and continued playing silly casino games that involve no skill until recently (haha)

I just want to be led into the right direction from experienced players and professionals.

I'm trying to turn blackjack into a living and want to make at least 100k a year playing.

I currently had my BIGGEST loss of 7k in 1 night at a NY casino. I'm over my "big loss" and want to move on and complete winning weekly to add onto my annual work related salary.


I'm looking for tips to roll with the big boys, I dream big and want to work both my job and have a side job out of blackjack

want to know how much you would recommended bringing each week/ day/ month, ect ect.0

all tips and hints will be valuable.

thank you all for your time

Hi Trice, and welcome to the forums.

You're definitely in the right place for advice as there are a bunch of professionals and talented math minds alike on these forums. I'd be happy to lend you some advice on blackjack, an area of my expertise.

The first thing I'd probably do is point you at the 3 articles I wrote and can be found in the Articles section of this very site. They're designed to pull in a TON of information from all over the internet and hundreds of threads in this very forum and act as an "A to Z" when it comes to counting cards in blackjack:

Article 1
Article 2
Article 3

Next, I'll go with some practical advice. Clearly you have some funds if you're gambling and winning $27k in 1 night on Roulette (ouch, a 5% HE game). It does indeed seem as though you've been quite lucky in your gambling history and congrats on that. As many others will point out, and I'll try to do so gracefully, though you may have been lucky in your past, if you're playing games such as roulette straight up (no advantage play) then you will go absolutely no where but to your Expected Value (EV) as you continue to play in the future. This means you'll go no where but towards, and past, 0.

I'd also caution you with how much information you posted. From here I can tell how old you are, what city you live in, and what your member status is at certain casinos. Notice I didn't repeat your information so that you can edit it out of your Opening Post =). If you want to play blackjack professionally, your identity and personal information is very important to you.

Continuing on, I want to quickly touch on another topic you mentioned... You stated you're over your big loss and want to move on and "complete winning weekly," etc. I want to point out something very important. Just because you're counting cards does NOT mean you're going to win every hand. In fact, you'll LOSE more than HALF of your hands. The reason counting works is because you bet more when you have an advantage, but that doesn't mean you'll always win more hands. The dealer is just as likely to get a good hand as you, but you can double, split, and get paid 150% for blackjacks. This is all covered in my articles, but the main point I want to make is you will still have BIG losing nights from time to time. Overall though, I can mathematically prove you'll win if you're playing correctly. Card counting does not ensure one to win in the SHORT TERM (anything under like 50,000 - 100,000 hands).

As far as your bankroll, how much to take each session, etc, that really depends on a lot of information you haven't shared with us. We need to know how much money you can put towards your bankroll. I'll just let you know now... If you have a big bet of about $400, then you're going to need around a $40,000-$50,000 bankroll (pending spread, games, etc, etc). Do you have that much money on hand? Are you willing to commit to that much money over the course of time if needed (i.e. playing out of a theoretical bankroll)?

I welcome you to the community and am happy to hear you want to learn a new skill, but this is not an endeavor to be taken lightly. You will not make $100k/year unless either you're full time, or you're betting a lot of money (max bet like $5k), in which you'll surely get burned out from most places and only be able to do that for a year or two. We have a counter on these forums (kewlj) that will hopefully chime in, but I believe he's mentioned his big bet is "mid blacks" so I'm assuming around $400-$500, and he's updated the forums with his results of around $100k per year. Though to be fair he also has supplemental machine play, but it's about 80% from BJ if I recall correctly. He does this full time. So not only are you playing 30-40 hours per week, you're scouting games, record keeping, traveling, etc, which will take you another 10-20 hours per week. I'd estimate (because I'm not full time) you're still going to need to put in 60 hour weeks to hit that goal unless you're again, betting huge. p.s. for a max bet of $5,000 you'd need like a $500,000 bankroll.

Please review my 3 articles, and re-read them again. After that, you should have a pretty good idea of what you're getting yourself in to. Feel free to ask any questions on the articles, in this thread, or my A-Z thread in the Gambling->Blackjack section of this site.

Again, welcome to the forums.

Quote: Trice

I'm trying to turn blackjack into a living and want to make at least 100k a year playing.

This is pretty difficult to do if you're not a full time advantage player.

Counting alone can't get you there.
You'll need a huge bankroll to generate 100K in EV in your free time, but your bet sizes will attract significant attention and you'll probably burn out quickly. Look up some of KewlJ's posts if you want to get an idea of what it takes to generate 6 figures a year counting blackjack solo.

Your other option is to build a library of advantage plays and be more opportunistic. Counting can be supplementary but you'll generate way more EV hole carding carnival games, edge sorting card rooms, or learning how to steer cards with precise cuts at the beginning of SD/DD games. Also look into side bets.

I think what most people don't realize is that to be a truly successful advantage player, you need to be scouting more than you're playing. You're better off scouting for a Holecard Mississippi game for 9 hours and slamming it for an hour (50%+ edge) than grinding blackjack for 50 hours (1%-2% edge)

And if you want to be in the true elite tier of APs, you need to learn how to analyze games yourself. Sidebets and Carnival games with enormous math errors pop up occasionally, and if you can do the EV analysis on the game and generate a winning strategy before anyone else does, you'll get rich very very fast. Teliot from APheat recently posted an article about a side bet that paid X to 1 instead of X for 1. This gave the player a 10% edge instead of a -5% edge, but you wouldn't know that unless you could do the analysis yourself and hit the game hard before it was fixed.

thank you romes & donuts for your knowledge,

Romes, I will definitely be reading your articltes and practicing what you preach. However....I'm still new to "the count" and am very intimated by keeping up with the count.

I know 100,000k per year sounds unreasonable but you must forgive me, i'm young and trying to live the Dan Bilzerian dream...lol


How about we be a little more reasonable here, if I'm looking for make a quick 200-500 dolllars per week, easily playing BJ - what would be my best route and way to go?

If i can amass a bunch of small wins they will add up opposed to me living this fantasy of a bunch of giant 5k and up wins in a night.

A $25K bankroll with a $25 unit and a 1-8 unit spread will net you between $25 and $50 in EV and hour depending on the game with minimal risk of ruin. So if you just play for 5-10 hours a weekend you'll bring in about $250-$1000 per week on average over the long term (1000 hours). (Your short term fluctuations will be deep into the thousands)

You'll need multiple casinos in your rotation with this kind of spread though. If you hit the same place every weekend you'll burn out fast. I don't know much about NY casinos, but East Coast games in general suck so this might be an obstacle for you.

If you're looking to make money, counting really isn't the way to go unless you're willing to make it your full time job, and even then its a grind. If you're looking to have some fun playing blackjack, gain some stories for your grandkids, and make a few extra bucks (possibly) you'll have a much better time overall.

On being intimidated by "The Count", don't be. You're literally adding and subtracting one repeatedly. After a few hours of practice you'll be able to count down a deck in 20-30 seconds. After about 100 hours of practice it'll be second nature. No dealer will ever be able to deal faster than you can count, its physically impossible.

This is "The Count" you should be scared of though:

Quote: Trice

I'm looking for tips to roll with the big boys

Don't set out with the goal of playing big.

Play as well as you can, at a level that is appropriate for your bankroll.

To do that, you need to understand the game, understand your plays, and understand what your betting ramp should be.

If that doesn't make sense, stop and save money from your day job. Maybe hire an investment advisor.

I won't give you any actual BJ advice other than don't count on being successful purely on counting. It's incredibly rare nowadays for someone to be successful given all the pitfalls and small advantage. There's very few successful BJ players who concentrate solely on counting many very talented people with resources and connections have failed.

I know we have guys like KJ who's told us of his success. He seems to be 100% dedicated to his craft. That alone probably isn't enough. I believe have what it takes or you don't, 99% don't. It's like being a SUCCESSFUL singer.

He's in the perfect location.

I'm assuming he ate, drank and slept BJ at the beginning. I assume he struggled at the beginning.

I know you say you're over you're "big loss" and want to move on. I'm really skeptical that someone who's quickly won 27k and tattooed a roulette number on their body is over anything related to gambling, especially at such a young age.

I certainly hope the living Dan Bilzerian dream comment was a joke. Unless you are playing super high with a huge BR or find something incredible, you won't have time for partying.

PS You you've already made your big mistakes and publicity commented about something that could easily identify you in a casino. Anyone working in a casino who reads this will certainly remember if the ever see someone with a 23 tattooed to their wrist.

I don't have all that much to add. I will say that as Axel alluded to, I am very passionate about blackjack, the game, career and lifestyle. I have come to realize recently that this sets me apart from other AP's. Blackjack isn't just a means for making money or a living for me. I still, even in my 13th year of playing for a living, enjoy the game and absolutely love that I can support myself in this manner. That's not to say that there aren't days.....

So I am concerned that in your opening remarks you said something to the effect that you didn't like blackjack much. If you are looking at it as just a means for making money or a living, I honestly don't know if you can or will last all that long.

Second pretty big red flag I saw, was your mention of something to the effect of "making money weekly". Maybe you just made a poor choice of words, but that is far from how blackjack works.....just about as far away as you can get and it is paramount that you really have an understanding of how blackjack works....how it's all about "long term" and in the short term anything can and WILL occur including tons of losing before you finally begin to inch towards "the long term".

Blackjackinfo.com

Navigate to the card counting school or tutorial or whatever it's called.


Read that.


Lotsa people have dreams and desires to count cards. Many try to learn and figure out it's more difficult than they expected.

Quote: RS

Blackjackinfo.com

Navigate to the card counting school or tutorial or whatever it's called.


Read that.


Lotsa people have dreams and desires to count cards. Many try to learn and figure out it's more difficult than they expected.

The 'mechanics' of counting cards are ridiculously easy. You count the cards as played. You memorized a few dozen index plays (more than a few if you want to squeeze extra pennies). I mean literally, a monkey could learn to do this.

It becomes a little more difficult to do this in an environment where there are people that don't want you to do this. LOL.

I would say the most challenging part is dealing with the swings involved. It does take some doing to be able to handle big downturns and LONG downturns (months of losing). Few people are prepared for that and don't really know if they can handle it until they go through it a few times. The best you can do is to try to know what is possible and be prepared for it by having the necessary bankroll to withstand it.

I don't know if it is against the rules of promotion, but software is a very valuable tool in that preparation and Norm's Qfit products are the best I have come across. Anyone serious or even remotely considering this avenue, needs to make that investment. Just playing around you will learn so much and it will answer questions that you didn't even think to ask.

Kewlji - I meant that when I first started casino gaming I was involved in games of pure luck like roulette , now that I've been playing blackjack more and more and understanding the game id like to use it as a tool to make an additional income.

I guess it was wrong for me to say I wanted to make an actual living out of playing , considering it involves a lot of disapline and money management skills

I do pretty well at my day job but it's always fun to make an additional income doing something you enjoy.

The Dan bilzerian comment was a joke btw lol

I do appreciate KJ along with everyone else's input.

Basically I'm just looking for some pointers or tips to make that extra income and have some fun enjoying a hobby in the new. Time


KJ if you don't mind can you share your biggest win in one night? One week? Also biggest loss?

Quote: Trice

KJ if you don't mind can you share your biggest win in one night? One week? Also biggest loss?

Yes, I can share that, but I want to preface these numbers by stating that I am NOT a high stakes player. I am what is known in the blackjack community as a mid stakes "grinder". This means I play more than most that play for a living (and there aren't that many pure blackjack professional players remaining), but that I play lower stakes, max bet in the mid black range, trying to draw minimal attention and if I draw attention to play within levels that are better tolerated by different casinos. So I don't have huge numbers like 6 figure losses in a day or week as some higher stakes players do. As a matter of fact 5 figure days, win or lose only occur about once a month for me on average.

My biggest win in a single day was 20 grand, in 2011. It was something I call the 'perfect shoe', in that once the count skyrocketed early, the other two players happened to drop out leaving me heads up with the dealer for about 30 rounds. From the time I started max betting and I actually went to something I call supermax bet, mostly because my cover was blown and I was drawing attention, so I wanted to capitalize before the hammer came down. But once I went to max bet, I won every round , including a number of double downs and splits, except one round that I split and won one hand and lost the other. Only odd thinmg is that in 30 some rounds with a very positive count, I received no blackjacks. :( Other than that....the perfect shoe.

My biggest losing day occurred earlier this year, just about the same amount, just under 20 grand. What made this day a little unusual is that when I play locally, I usually begin the day with about 12k, with the ability to replenish a few thousand on the fly through higher ATM withdrawl limits. But usually if I lose 10 grand, I am ready to quit for the day. On this day, I lost about 10K in a bout 1/2 hour at my first stop. I wasn't ready to quit for the day and wasn't going to be able to replenish enough from ATM's to continue playing, so I went to the bank, replenished and continued on my way, losing another 9 grand in relatively short order.

Weekly wins or losses I would have to go back and check, but I can say with relative certainty that my biggest week occurred in 2013, during a monster run (for me) of 5 weeks in which I won 115K. I went from 32K in the hole for the year to 83K in the black in 5 weeks. Everything I did was right. Every max bet seemed to win, every big double down seemed to win. I am sure one of those weeks was my best week ever. :)

Funny thing, after that run, I had to take some time off, as I was too hot in my regular rotation of stores. Who knew winning to much, too quickly was a bad thing. lol

Quote: kewlj

My biggest win in a single day was 20 grand, in 2011. It was something I call the 'perfect shoe', in that once the count skyrocketed early, the other two players happened to drop out leaving me heads up with the dealer for about 30 rounds. From the time I started max betting and I actually went to something I call supermax bet, mostly because my cover was blown and I was drawing attention, so I wanted to capitalize before the hammer came down. But once I went to max bet, I won every round , including a number of double downs and splits, except one round that I split and won one hand and lost the other. Only odd thinmg is that in 30 some rounds with a very positive count, I received no blackjacks. :( Other than that....the perfect shoe.

My partner just had the exact opposite last Sunday.

TC shot up half way through the shoe, the other two players leave the shoe, he proceeds to max bet 2x250 for multiple rounds with multiple double/split opportunities. Loses 160 units in a single shoe.. He also received no blackjacks. :>

Don't sell that shoe short. I lost 3 max bet hands in a row when the dealer hit a 3 or 4 card 21. It was magical.

There was one blackjack. For the dealer. So that was nice.

My advice to a "new BJ player who wants to go pro" is to not depend entirely on card counting.

Some of the "advanced" Blackjack AP is actually much easier to find than most people would think. Try to scout for opportunities such as shuffle tracking, ace sequencing, edge sorting, and hole carding, all of these are possible due to inadequate shuffling procedures and/or sloppy dealers, and you can actually come across a lot of these in Las Vegas. Many people are disgusted by the 6:5 single deck BJ that are becoming more prominent, but these games can be a gold mine for card stirring. Because single deck games are shuffled so frequently, if you can stir an Ace/Ten toward yourself or a 5/6 toward the dealer per shoe, then you have well over 10% advantage. Try to find exploitable promotions, such as loss rebates that doesn't require a minimum time played, these are rare in the US but you can still find them in Europe. Also try to find new BJ side bets that are player favorite. For example a friend of my was able to come across a side bet that paid 36:1 on a player natural in Italy, the side bet had a 100 Euro bet limit. The casino came to realization and changed the pay out to 18:1 a few days later, but not before the friend of my and his team took over 100k Euro from the side bet alone.

To sum it up, there are a lot more money in blackjack than card counting, and have an open mind about them. Spending 50 hours scouting for 10% opportunities then spending 50 hours exploiting them, is vastly superior than spending 100 hours grinding at a 1% game.

My advice to a new BJ player wanting to go pro is simply this...........Don't. Its hard, stressful, requires a loooooooooooot of money, exceptional amounts of discipline and attention to detail and memory, and you have to be very "tough" mentally to drag this all through the daily grind, smoke, loud noises, and distractions, all for a very, very small edge.

If you're a masochist and you really hate yourself and your life, I encourage the idea. Jk, maybe just a little.