HiLo Count that incorporates a side count of Aces - what's a good method??

Hi folks, I use the HiLo count at the tables, but am looking for a way to increase my edge (without jumping up to the more complex level two or level three count systems). Is there a way to incorporate a side count of Aces into the HiLo count for betting purposes? And by doing this, does the player's edge increase by any worthwhile amount? Any references would be much appreciated.

Quote: harikarilord

Hi folks, I use the HiLo count at the tables, but am looking for a way to increase my edge (without jumping up to the more complex level two or level three count systems). Is there a way to incorporate a side count of Aces into the HiLo count for betting purposes? And by doing this, does the player's edge increase by any worthwhile amount? Any references would be much appreciated.

Depends on the games you're playing. For single and double deck a side count aces can be quite beneficial. For 6 and 8 deck, eh, yeah it helps, but it wouldn't be the most powerful punch in your bag.

I guess I have to ask, do you have I18 COMPLETELY memorized? There's more EV in the I18 than there is in a side aces count (for 6 and 8 deck games). If you're sure you have Hi/Low mastered, you must also master the I18. You can also go past the I18 and memorize more indexes.

The best thing I've found for most any counter who has Hi/Low "down pat" is to revisit their spread. Do you have a spreadsheet for the games you play with your spread/ramp and the gain per hand per true count? Do you know what your hourly EV is, how much you expect to make on a trip where you're planning on getting 500 hands, etc? It's shocking how many players have been playing in a casino for years, counting, and yet they don't know the EV of the games they play with the spread they use and they're shocked to find out all this time they've been playing a LOSING game. If you DO already have said sheets then very well done, but I would revisit them and see if you can re-work them to get a few more dollars per hour out of your EV. Remember, TC +3 is worth MORE than TC +4 because of it's frequency. So I hope the biggest jump in your spread is from TC +2 to TC +3... Just some things to think about.

p.s. I suppose if you don't have those sheets or know what I'm referring to I'll link you to Article 1 of 3 in the Articles section that explains this in MUCH more detail.

I agree with Romes. Although I am a strong proponent of simplicity, a simple level one count, like hi-lo, I myself use an ace side count when I play double deck. It isn't something that I intended, but it almost becomes hard to NOT KNOW how many aces have hit the felt, when there are so few to track.

The problem becomes, what to do with that information. With counts, like hi-lo where the ace information is already incorporated into the primary count, almost anything you do as far a betting because of that 'additional' information, could end up being harmful. You are in effect double-dipping or over-valuing that information.

Because the value of the ace is so great with 50% blackjack payment, you can get away with this a little bit, particularly with neutral type counts with high ace concentration remaining. But bumping up your wager more than just a slight amount is over-valuing and over playing the situation. Be careful.

It is appropriate and beneficial to use this 'extra' information for more accurate playing decisions, including insurance. PE is more important in single, double deck games and has minimal importance in shoe games, so again, the benefit of ace side counting shoe games, is not all that great and not worth the extra effort, IMO.

Thanks for the responses Romes and kewlj. I almost exclusively play double deck games, so it makes intuitive sense that side-counting Aces would be a minimal effort addition to the AP’s arsenal. My concern, as kewlj pointed out, is how do you incorporate that side count into the standard hilo count in a way that allows you to maximize your EV via betting strategy? (that is, how to correctly incorporate that side count and not over-extend yourself by double-counting aces). Do you know of any sources who have done the math and found the optimal method?

Maybe I’m expecting too much from the HiLo method. Maybe I should just graduate to a 2-point count system?!?

And admittedly, my I18 could use a little polishing :) I’ll look into the articles you linked Romes to double check my spread as well.