Tom's sum up on blackjack counting
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i will edit it time by time. many are with my opinion after reading others.
1) time. i think it should be full time job. for part-time, as i tested many times by software, some times, i play 10000 hands, i get like 10 units or 0 even -. so by this, i cannot never do it. but i will try to learn it, because at least i can say i know how to do it.
2) money. it should be 100 units at least. or 500 units to be more professional. it is called deviation?
3) find right casinos. with good terms: like:
a if csm,
b 3:2 blackjack pays off.
c if double at any 2 cards, if double after split. how many splits
d if replit A, split how many hands, if hittable.
e early surrender or late surrender or not early or late at all.
f: if surrender to A.
g: if hole card.
h: how many decks.
i: penetration.
j: how many burn cards.
k: money spread.
L: if easy to be caught.
m: if you play long, will u get free food and room?
n: if u get free lottery ticket
o: maybe there are more, i will add to this. and if i know the order later, i will reput it.
p: if dealer stands at soft 17.
q: if dealer's blackjack only wins the original bet.
now i found Wizard's professional input on this: https://wizardofodds.com/games/blackjack/rule-variations/
4) be 100% fast at basic strategy. i am in it 100 % if 6 decks and stands soft 17 macao rule . because the changes after true ccount is based on it. it is not easy to remeber all. because there are rule differences in point 3). also actually, there are versions from different professionals. because by running simulations, each time is different. and simulations of 1 million and 1 billiion will result different strategies. but i will trust Wizard most. like in Macao, stand 16 of 3 cards vs dealer 10. and 88 surrender to dealer's 10. and 14 of 2 cards surrender to deal's 10 (then 77 should be so also.) and soft 18 of 4 cards or more stands vs dealer's A. and no matter how many cards, like 7 of card 2, i will also hit. because Wizard never says anything of related to number of cards.
5) bet and strategy change after true count.
a there are many counting systems, the most famous is hi-low. here they are many counting systems: http://www.blackjacknocounting.com/blackjack-card-counting
b: bet changes, there are also some versions, and some even put 'kelly's what'.
the changes of basic strategy. there are some versions. some has put it in importance order. like in wizardofodds.
c: here i tried to put the basick strategy and counting strategy of hight in one table after reading two links on wizardofodds:
https://wizardofodds.com/games/blackjack/strategy/4-decks/
https://wizardofodds.com/games/blackjack/card-counting/high-low/
if any mistake, please let me know:
basic strategy and advanced strategy of hi-low count
4-8 decks, dealer stands for soft 17
made by Tomchina123
Player's Dealer's card
card 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 A
4 - 8 H H H H H H H H H H
9 H(if+1, D) Dh Dh Dh Dh H(if+3, D) H H H H
10 Dh Dh Dh Dh Dh Dh Dh Dh H(if+4,D) H(if+4,D)
11 Dh Dh Dh Dh Dh Dh Dh Dh Dh H(if+1, D)
12 H(if+3,S) H(if+2,S) S(if-0, H) S(if-2 H) S(if-1, H) H H H H H
13 S(if -1, H) S(if -2, H) S S S H H H H H
14 S S S S S H H H H(if +3, R) H
15 S S S S S H H H(if +2, R) Rh(if+4, S) H(if+1, R)
16 S S S S S H H Rh(if+5,S) Rh (if +0, S) Rh
17- 21 S S S S S S S S S S
A2 H H H Dh Dh H H H H H
A3 H H H Dh Dh H H H H H
A4 H H Dh Dh Dh H H H H H
A5 H H Dh Dh Dh H H H H H
A6 H Dh Dh Dh Dh H H H H H
A7 H Ds Ds Ds Ds S S H H H
A8-A10 S S S S S S S S S S
22 p p p p p p H H H H
33 p p p p p p H H H H
44 H H H p p H H H H H
55 D D D D D D D D H H
66 p p p p p H H H H H
77 p p p p p p H H H H
88 p p p p p p p p p p
99 p p p p p S p p S S
1010 S S S S(if+5, P) S(if+4, P) S S S S S
AA p p p p p p p p p p
Notes:
1: H: hit. S: stand Dh: double if allowed, otherwise hit.
Ds: double if allowed, otherwise stand P: split Rh: surrender if allowed, otherwise hit.
3: Exceptions( idea by Wizard):
Stand on 16 vs 10 with 3 or more cards.
Four or six decks, dealer stands on soft 17: Stand soft 18 vs A with 4 or more cards.
4: Counting:
1) if true count (running count/decks) is +3 or above: buy insurance:
2) the '+' and "-" means 'at it' or ' above it. for example: +3 means +3,4,5,6... -1 means: 1,2,3,4...
also there is a very professional one by other sources:
to see picture version, please visit here: it is my job website, i try to hide it in a small link.
(deleted.)
6) hidding ways from pit boss.
7) sided things.
a: like playing how many hands.
b: if csm, i started a threadon on this also.
c: if other +ev game is more worthwhile or easy than blackjack counting? as i read, some side bets are much easier.
not sure i will finish all. but i will try.
it isn't.
every updates/editing, i spent hours.
Thanks for your contributions to the card counter community. I very much like your chart of BS, i18 & Fab4 ALL IN ONE:
i don't know how to put pictures.
also. by this picture, the top is cut. in the top, it indicates how many decks, and also dealer stands for soft 17. which is important to read strategy.
also the 77: P, the color is not right.
also the organization should be improved.
also red is not good color to be clear. too pure.
so i recopy link here for improved version.
(deleted.)
and in this picture, i may, in the future, put bet spread info and bankroll info, variants info, even all betting systems, how to read 'luck' and gamble warnings and so on in the same pictures. so more practical.
definitely, the more the reply is, the faster i will do them.
It seems as though you have some decent information quite scattered about in a fairly unorganized fashion =P. I 'think' you're trying to help sum up counting and different aspects of it for yourself/others? If this is the case it's been covered, in much much more detail and published on the Wizards Articles page =).
A to Z Counting Cards in Blackjack
Article 1
Article 2
Article 3
Quote: RomesHi Tom,
It seems as though you have some decent information quite scattered about in a fairly unorganized fashion =P. I 'think' you're trying to help sum up counting and different aspects of it for yourself/others? If this is the case it's been covered, in much much more detail and published on the Wizards Articles page =).
A to Z Counting Cards in Blackjack
Article 1
Article 2
Article 3
Do not be too proud of your work, however good.
Give someone else a voice, let them talk.
You, even you, might learn something.
Quote: tomchina123thanks, i am from mainland, China. shenzhen.
i don't know how to put pictures.
also. by this picture, the top is cut. in the top, it indicates how many decks, and also dealer stands for soft 17. which is important to read strategy.
also the 77: P, the color is not right.
also the organization should be improved.
also red is not good color to be clear. too pure.
so i recopy link here for improved version.
http://www.sbrightled.com/how%20to%20save%20money%20in%20choosing%20a%20video%20screen
and in this picture, i may, in the future, put bet spread info and bankroll info, variants info, even all betting systems, how to read 'luck' and gamble warnings and so on in the same pictures. so more practical.
definitely, the more the reply is, the faster i will do them.
Quote: RomesHi Tom,
It seems as though you have some decent information quite scattered about in a fairly unorganized fashion =P. I 'think' you're trying to help sum up counting and different aspects of it for yourself/others? If this is the case it's been covered, in much much more detail and published on the Wizards Articles page =).
A to Z Counting Cards in Blackjack
Article 1
Article 2
Article 3
Quote: TwoFeathersATL
Do not be too proud of your work, however good.
Give someone else a voice, let them talk.
You, even you, might learn something.
Hey Tom, I like the revised chart of yours:
Furthermore...don't be discouraged by Romes' constructive criticisms about your oranizational structure/style. Perhaps you can incorporate Romes' bj essays into your bj project.
Quote: TwoFeathersATLQuote: RomesHi Tom,
It seems as though you have some decent information quite scattered about in a fairly unorganized fashion =P. I 'think' you're trying to help sum up counting and different aspects of it for yourself/others? If this is the case it's been covered, in much much more detail and published on the Wizards Articles page =).
A to Z Counting Cards in Blackjack
Article 1
Article 2
Article 3
Do not be too proud of your work, however good.
Give someone else a voice, let them talk.
You, even you, might learn something.
Well, the casinos need people to fill their games. Empty tables aren't very inviting.
An "AP" who possibly (?) recruits other "AP's" might be considered by them to be invaluable.
Quote: TwoFeathersATL
Do not be too proud of your work, however good.
Give someone else a voice, let them talk.
You, even you, might learn something.[/q
What pray tell is it that you think Romes might learn?
His articles should be required reading for all blackjack players old and new alike. If he were to publish them in a book he may well have a best seller on his hands. They're that good.Many people, especially ignorant people, want to punish you for speaking the truth. - Mahatma Ghandi
Quote: RomesHi Tom,
It seems as though you have some decent information quite scattered about in a fairly unorganized fashion =P. I 'think' you're trying to help sum up counting and different aspects of it for yourself/others? If this is the case it's been covered, in much much more detail and published on the Wizards Articles page =).
A to Z Counting Cards in Blackjack
Article 1
Article 2
Article 3
ok, i would later take the time to read them all. there is a way for digesting. reading how others are digesting it can be a help.
thanks anway.
Quote: ArtemisQuote: RomesHi Tom,
It seems as though you have some decent information quite scattered about in a fairly unorganized fashion =P. I 'think' you're trying to help sum up counting and different aspects of it for yourself/others? If this is the case it's been covered, in much much more detail and published on the Wizards Articles page =).
A to Z Counting Cards in Blackjack
Article 1
Article 2
Article 3
Hey Tom, I like the revised chart of yours:
Furthermore...don't be discouraged by Romes' constructive criticisms about your oranizational structure/style. Perhaps you can incorporate Romes' bj essays into your bj project.
hi, Artemis,
thanks for putting pics here for me.
thanks for the encourings. you are the one.
i will read them and try to put all info in one chart.
regards,
Tom.
I don't think that Mr V is the only one here smoking pot.Quote: 1BBIf he were to publish them in a book he may well have a best seller on his hands. They're that good.
Quote: DoubleOrNothingI don't think that Mr V is the only one here smoking pot.
I've had worse things said about me. I'm not smoking pot or anything else. Would you like to discuss what led you to form that opinion? You don't think Romes' work is that good?
Quote: DoubleOrNothingI don't think that Mr V is the only one here smoking pot.
*Says the guy whose avatar shows him high as a kite, pounding chocolate chip cookies in a dope-fueled munch fest.*
Quote: MrV*Says the guy whose avatar shows him high as a kite, pounding chocolate chip cookies in a dope-fueled munch fest.*
I don't care what any of you guys say, that there is funny!!
Quote: RomesHi Tom,
It seems as though you have some decent information quite scattered about in a fairly unorganized fashion =P. I 'think' you're trying to help sum up counting and different aspects of it for yourself/others? If this is the case it's been covered, in much much more detail and published on the Wizards Articles page =).
A to Z Counting Cards in Blackjack
Article 1
Article 2
Article 3
i read all. some is to my knowledge. some, i need to time to reread it to understand it.
but definitely they are really good. as i replied to your article.
for me, i had 0 experience in real counting. i read much less, if compared with u. at my title goes, i only try to sum them up as a learner.
and also if you come up a chart to guide us to do things as clearly as possible, i would really appreciated it . and i will understand to understand a chart which needs background-reading, i will also do it. because sometimes, there are too much information on the interest.
Quote: tomchina123Quote: ArtemisQuote: RomesHi Tom,
It seems as though you have some decent information quite scattered about in a fairly unorganized fashion =P. I 'think' you're trying to help sum up counting and different aspects of it for yourself/others? If this is the case it's been covered, in much much more detail and published on the Wizards Articles page =).
A to Z Counting Cards in Blackjack
Article 1
Article 2
Article 3
Hey Tom, I like the revised chart of yours:
Furthermore...don't be discouraged by Romes' constructive criticisms about your oranizational structure/style. Perhaps you can incorporate Romes' bj essays into your bj project.
hi, Artemis,
thanks for putting pics here for me.
thanks for the encourings. you are the one.
i will read them and try to put all info in one chart.
regards,
Tom.
i updated it with more readiness to use. if no better, it is ok. at least i will use it.
can u help with putting here again?/
I wonder what their reaction would be to a chart that includes the I18. I may not be too quick to let them see that one. :-)
Quote: 1BBNice chart, Tom. As you may know, many casinos allow the player to use a basic strategy chart at the table. They know that they have nothing to lose as long as the game is not slowed.
I wonder what their reaction would be to a chart that includes the I18. I may not be too quick to let them see that one. :-)
i also want to see.
by the way, i have updated the chart. if you go the link again.
Quote: TwoFeathersATLDo not be too proud of your work, however good.
Give someone else a voice, let them talk.
You, even you, might learn something.
The point is to not start from scratch as there's no need to. Perhaps he reviews and see's 2-3 things I didn't discuss and he can bring those to light... So that everyone can learn instead of having 3-4 places with the same information repeated and scattered about. My intent is education, not publicizing.
Tom - Such a card/chart exists that both holds basic strategy AND index plays... and even in an encoded way! Ken Smith at BlackjackInfo.com has them for sale on his site: https://www.blackjackinfo.com/card/advanced-strategy-card-instructions/
as i said before. by simulations, there are always small differences, so there are versions. like the effect on the player's expected return of removing just one card from a six-deck shoe. which is good to understand vervsions of counting sytem. and which is answered by Wizard. definitely, i trust Wizard most.
Sorry, no marijuana in those cookies. High on life, I guess.Quote: MrV*Says the guy whose avatar shows him high as a kite, pounding chocolate chip cookies in a dope-fueled munch fest.*
BTW, Bronson wouldn't fit the avatar.
Quote: DoubleOrNothingSorry, no marijuana in those cookies. High on life, I guess.
BTW, Bronson wouldn't fit the avatar.
what a poor literature./creature.
Quote: tomchina123... what a poor literature./creature.
Look up from the blackjack tables for a second. Do you see a school or discussion around you for the intellectually gifted?
Quote: tomchina123
hi, Artemis,
thanks for putting pics here for me.
thanks for the encourings. you are the one.
i will read them and try to put all info in one chart.
i updated it with more readiness to use. if no better, it is ok. at least i will use it.
can u help with putting here again?/
Sure, Tom. Here's your revised #4 (FINAL):
here i learned how to do pictures. i will try it now. by the way, it is never final. like i did industrial designs before, i change it crazily often.
for this one, i started a thread on this also. not easy to get good replies. but i will keep trying to finish it. if any one who can finish it. it is his copyright.
and it is to help ourselves, and also help the players, just against the casino, which is not this forum all about?
rules are perfect, playing as good as computer, index is perfect. bet spread is not small. no red-flags.
every day 1000 hands=500 minutes= 8.33 hours.
play 100 days.
each bet 50 USD
other info, please check the pictures, the result is: first 100 days, wins 236.5 USD. second 100 days, wins 567 USD. second 100 days, wins 559.5 USD. so for a full year, the winning is USD1363.
maybe i set up the software wrong? maybe at last, gamling is for fun eventually?
reedit on sep.10, 2015,
sorry, on this calculation, it is wrong: the result is: first 100 days, wins 236.5 USD. second 100 days, wins 567 USD. second 100 days, wins 559.5 USD. so for a full year, the winning is USD1363.
the right should be *100. because in the pictures, the result is by average.
thanks.
Quote: tomchina123another strategy, not really related to counting, but to more edge.
Regarding this front-back player strategy, below is the chart I derived. Macau rules apply.
The number is the number of times the back bet is bigger than the front bet.
It is justified to split the back bet if bigger than or equal to the number.
Quote: vulnerableQuote: tomchina123another strategy, not really related to counting, but to more edge.
Regarding this front-back player strategy, below is the chart I derived. Macau rules apply.
The number is the number of times the back bet is bigger than the front bet.
It is justified to split the back bet if bigger than or equal to the number.
thanks for the chart, i appreciate your work. you must be very good at maths and software, i am sure.
Quote: ArtemisQuote: RomesHi Tom,
It seems as though you have some decent information quite scattered about in a fairly unorganized fashion =P. I 'think' you're trying to help sum up counting and different aspects of it for yourself/others? If this is the case it's been covered, in much much more detail and published on the Wizards Articles page =).
A to Z Counting Cards in Blackjack
Article 1
Article 2
Article 3
Hey Tom, I like the revised chart of yours:
Furthermore...don't be discouraged by Romes' constructive criticisms about your oranizational structure/style. Perhaps you can incorporate Romes' bj essays into your bj project.
How much different will this chart be if we switch to dealer H17 and NS? I know that certain index plays (double 11 v. A @ +1) become part of the basic strategy if one is not counting. What other index plays are affected by this rule change?
Quote: theoriemeister...How much different will this chart be if we switch to dealer H17 and NS? I know that certain index plays (double 11 v. A @ +1) become part of the basic strategy if one is not counting. What other index plays are affected by this rule change?
Just use the Wiz's Strategy Calculator to find the basic strategy. All deviations are listed at their indexes (I18). While there is a very very very small difference in the indexes from H17 to S17 these are usually considered mathematical white noise and we use the same indexes for either game. The difference is that 3-4 of the "index" plays from S17 become basic strategy in the H17 game (such as 11vA as you pointed out).
Summary: Use the calculator to find BS, then use I18 as stated.
from reading your blackjack A, BC...Z, as i commented, you are one of persons, who knows more and devotes to it for the whole life.
hard work pays off. you will be the one casino 'hates' most.
for maths of blackjack, can u help with the 'buying' strategy for 'scavenger plays'? you see, as an expert like u, you must want to know it.
surelly, i want to 'detailed one'. simple like: buy BJ vs 10, buy 16 V7 surrender... is not enough. i want to know what are the importance order. and what is the maths in the order or how much addtional money can i buy that hand?
if you do it, i will start a new thread with: Wow, how smart the Romes is, check his maths work in BJ 'scavenger plays'.
Maybe it is not that much what i want to have me refer to the sources, though it is likely to be the answer.
It so happens that at my recent labor day cookout with friends, I was discussing this very topic with my good friend who works the pit in one of the larger strip casinos (chain casino). I was surprised to learn from him that with any disputes that occur, his casino takes the position that the hand belongs to the player who began the round playing that spot, regardless of any agreement the two parties have.
One of the common disputes is when a second player puts up money for a doubledown or split as to whether it is a loan or the second player is 'buying' that split hand or double down portion. The common sense question is why would it be a simple loan?? But his casino views that hand as belonging to the original player, no matter what. The wager is paid off to the original player. So if the original player wants to pay it back as a loan, when everyone knows the second player bought that doubledown, there is nothing the second player can do. THAT hand belongs to the original player, in the eyes of the casino. He could even go as far as to not pay anything back. :/
Although I have personally seen a number of different disputes in this area, it is mostly due to lack of clarity. You can and should make it crystal clear what you are doing.
But let's say no dispute arises and you buy someone double down, win and are paid without issue. You still have a situation where players at the table are seen working together and exchanging money between them. This is most certainly something that is noticed by surveillance. IT IS THEIR JOB TO NOTICE SOMETHING LIKE THIS. So right away if you are a player, attempting to play fly under the radar and draw minimum attention, getting involved in scavenger plays is "counter-productive" (<- pun intended). At minimum surveillance probably pegs you as a AP, just because of the +EV scavenger play.
So for me, even though a play may be +EV, it has to be worth my while to get involved. Everything is risk vs reward for me. In this case risk of extra attention vs +EV. So I am not buying someone's $10 spit hand with +EV of a few cents. Risk (extra attention) not worth the reward (gain in EV). But if the guy next to me doesn't want to double his $400 or $500, 10 vs 8, I am all over that. Reward (EV) greater than risk (attention). But I will exit at the next possible chance (shuffle or negative count) limiting their chance to take a greater look at me or evaluate me further.
In my opinion, doubling down on someone else's 9, 10, 11, etc is becoming quite the norm even for ploppies (at least in my area). I've got to imagine it's even more common practice in Vegas where the local "ploppies" as a populous would/should know more than a state in the midwest. Survailence is going to see people exchanging chips all the time. I've given check change to other players at the table... This is also exchanging chips. I've made side bets at the table and been paid, thus players exchanging chips (guy bet me the pair square side bet was less than 2% HE - 15/10 version, then he told me when I went to check to go to WOO!! lol). Then you also have buddies at the table who share chips sometimes. I've seen people give each other money as a loan for a double down because they're buddies. Finally you also have scaveging then.
All in all, there's a LOT of reasons players have to exchange money between one another, and I think the potential payoff on some of these scavenge plays is just too high in EV to let go... Say I go count for 2 hours at a shop near by. My EV per hour is around $45, so that's an EV of $90 for my 2 hours. Okay, well guy at 1st base shoves all in for $150 and gets an 11v5... a 61% ER. So I slide over $100 and I'm getting an EV of $61, making my session EV go from $90 to $151, 167% of my original session EV! This is also the example I gave in my 2nd article because this is a real example of something that's happened to me. Yes, I know your next point is going to be "not all scavengers are for $100" etc ,etc. I see people go "all in" after a losing streak/etc all the time. I'd guess it's about 60/40 on "lower wager scavenger" to "higher value scavenger" plays. At a minimum I think all players should at least take these higher wager scavenger plays. But alas, I'll again re-iterate I'm not the pro, and I might have to re-evaluate if my main goal was longevity (which it is though at some of my local shops). I've never had any problems or anyone bat an eye at anyone offering to double someone else's good hand, ever. Just my opinion, right or wrong =).
Quote: 1BBI used to have a guy who would pay me not to surrender. He was a high roller who didn't want me to "mess up" the cards. Loved that guy.
I had the same thing happen just a couple months ago. He bought my hand from me (16vA/10/9 and 15v10, or index plays) and he played it. It was glorious to get 100% return for essentially basic strategy surrenders =D.
Tom, I didn't see your other post until just now. I'm not entirely sure what you're asking for. Are you asking for when you should offer to scavenge or buy someone's hand? It's fairly simple, though I'm not going to do the math for every hand =). Leverage the Wizard's index I used in the 2nd article ( https://wizardofodds.com/games/blackjack/appendix/1/ ). This shows the ER for each of the scenarios. Then it should be simple math. If it's a double down or split and you're ER is positive, try to get it! You'll probably have very few opportunities to buy someone's hand out right. The only time someone would be willing to get their hand bought would more than likely be in a non-favorable situation. Scavenger plays are where you'll majorly have the opportunity to get extra money on the table with a very good ER.
Quote: RomesWhile I can't say I'm full time and maybe I would have to re-evaluate if I was, I'm going to (for one of the first times ever) respectfully disagree with you kewlj.
No need to be all that respectful, Romes. Few are with me. lol. And you have every right to disagree (and be wrong). :)
Just to be clear, I didn't say it was uncommon. What I said was it is something that does draw attention. Now that doesn't mean anyone says anything. At lower limits, probably no one cares. At higher limits, it's still not illegal or against any rule (that I know of) so still no one will say much, but that doesn't mean it wasn't observed and noticed. Players exchanging money at the table is something that is noticed. And for a player that attempts to play as unnoticed as possible and draw as little attention as possible, unless it is a real good return (+EV) the whole exercise is a negative for me.
In addition there is an element for me, that I didn't get into before that I will now. I don't want to take advantage of (prey on) other players. It's why I don't play poker. That's just me. There are AP's that specifically do this.....I don't. On the few occasions that I do participate in such a play of buying someone's double or split, or even original hand if they don't want it, it almost has to be their suggestion. Or at least they have to indicate a willingness to. I would never suggest them selling me a split or double.
And furthermore if I was buying someone's double because they didn't have the money or just didn't want to spend the extra money, I am likely to tell them that they are just better off hitting (so they may have the option of a second hit) than allowing me to double. It's only if I feel I have been as fair as possible and not in any way taking advantage of them, that I would accept the play.
That's just me. I am about winning, but I am not a 'win at all costs' type guy. I want to win fair and square and honorably and feel good about doing so.
Respectfully, I disagree again! lol =)Quote: kewljNo need to be all that respectful, Romes. Few are with me. lol. And you have every right to disagree (and be wrong). :)
I honestly don't see this as preying on another player AT ALL. I never ask for their double if they have the potential to take more than one card, without explaining that to them. I always tell them when they have 9v6 "well, you could get a 2, but if you're only taking one card..." There's no way it's preying on other players when they've taken 1 card on 10 or 11 all night and you know they're going to do the same vs a bust card? The only difference is you get to slide some money next to their bet. That is literally the only difference. They weren't going to double so you're taking advantage of the situation they've already declined to take advantage of. If anything it usually helps the player to show them someone else is even willing to double down. There's been countless times someone wasn't going to double down, I politely offered to "ride it with them" and then they ended up doubling down themselves. I would argue that offering to double HELPS players if anything.Quote: kewlj...In addition there is an element for me, that I didn't get into before that I will now. I don't want to take advantage of (prey on) other players. It's why I don't play poker. That's just me. There are AP's that specifically do this.....I don't. On the few occasions that I do participate in such a play of buying someone's double or split, or even original hand if they don't want it, it almost has to be their suggestion. Or at least they have to indicate a willingness to. I would never suggest them selling me a split or double...
Again, most of my offers are when they are only going to take 1 card. If they ever have the option to take more than 1 card I even tell them that could happen (because I don't want them mad at me when they double 9 and get a 2). It's immoral as an AP to let an advantage no one wants slip away when it doesn't hurt anyone =).Quote: kewljAnd furthermore if I was buying someone's double because they didn't have the money or just didn't want to spend the extra money, I am likely to tell them that they are just better off hitting (so they may have the option of a second hit) than allowing me to double. It's only if I feel I have been as fair as possible and not in any way taking advantage of them, that I would accept the play.
That's just me. I am about winning, but I am not a 'win at all costs' type guy. I want to win fair and square and honorably and feel good about doing so.
For poker, I'll quote Canada Bill Jones: "It's immoral to let a sucker keep his money." - Rounders
Also about the hands where the other player could have an option to hit a second time if you didn't double their hand. It is way more than just the 9 vs something hands, where you could draw a 2. How about 10 vs 7,8,9, or 11 vs 7,8,9,10. Lets' say you double 10 vs 8 because the other player doesn't want to. The double card is a 3. Had you not doubled, and he just hit, he would have the option to hit again. So, you taking his double, was not in his best interest, even if that wasn't your intent. Many of the soft hands are that way as well.
Quote: kewljRomes, when I expressed my thoughts, I really wasn't judging or even thinking about you specifically. They were just my own thoughts on scavenger plays and some of the players that I see go that route. I do see players that I consider preying on (or taking advantage of) other players and I am just saying, I can't do that, even for some really good EV.
Also about the hands where the other player could have an option to hit a second time if you didn't double their hand. It is way more than just the 9 vs something hands, where you could draw a 2. How about 10 vs 7,8,9, or 11 vs 7,8,9,10. Lets' say you double 10 vs 8 because the other player doesn't want to. The double card is a 3. Had you not doubled, and he just hit, he would have the option to hit again. So, you taking his double, was not in his best interest, even if that wasn't your intent. Many of the soft hands are that way as well.
Oh kewlj, you always think I take what you say personally =P. I don't know what others feel on the situation so when discussing a topic I'll throw my personal opinion/experiences in the ring because I don't have anything else to go off of. There are definitely plenty of situations where a player could take more than 1 card (if the double didn't work out). Like I said I like to be crystal clear and even tell them that info up front so there's no ambiguity. In nearly a decade of play I've never had a "dispute" over a scavenger play. The only scavengers I really hard press are the basics... with a dealer 6-5-4-3 up, etc (especially in situations where they definitely won't take more than 1 card). Others I might feel a player out and not even say anything to gather information/etc. One of my flaws at the table is trying to be too helpful at times (not even scavenging but just assisting players that ask or say they're beginners, etc). In those situations I wish I could take a play from your book and just be a ghost but my big mouth usually doesn't let me lol.
Quote: RomesI had the same thing happen just a couple months ago. He bought my hand from me (16vA/10/9 and 15v10, or index plays) and he played it. It was glorious to get 100% return for essentially basic strategy surrenders =D.
Tom, I didn't see your other post until just now. I'm not entirely sure what you're asking for. Are you asking for when you should offer to scavenge or buy someone's hand? It's fairly simple, though I'm not going to do the math for every hand =). Leverage the Wizard's index I used in the 2nd article ( https://wizardofodds.com/games/blackjack/appendix/1/ ). This shows the ER for each of the scenarios. Then it should be simple math. If it's a double down or split and you're ER is positive, try to get it! You'll probably have very few opportunities to buy someone's hand out right. The only time someone would be willing to get their hand bought would more than likely be in a non-favorable situation. Scavenger plays are where you'll majorly have the opportunity to get extra money on the table with a very good ER.
thanks, Romes, this link helps,
