anyone here playing bj for a living? need an advice.

i have been playing bj seriously since 2012 and was somewhat successful but got backed off from several properties in vegas. now i want to move to vegas to play bj for a living and i have a couple questions that i would like to ask.

1. how many sessions/casinos do you go to every day? and how long is your session?

2. what is your main game? 2d? 6d?

3. what is your bet spread?

4. do you play rated or unrated?

i would also appreciate any inputs from the people that is already doing it. thank you.

Quote: deviru

i have been playing bj seriously since 2012 and was somewhat successful but got backed off from several properties in vegas. now i want to move to vegas to play bj for a living and i have a couple questions that i would like to ask.

1. how many sessions/casinos do you go to every day? and how long is your session?

2. what is your main game? 2d? 6d?

3. what is your bet spread?

4. do you play rated or unrated?

i would also appreciate any inputs from the people that is already doing it. thank you.

Not playing for a living but have some answers:

You can go to as many casinos as you feel comfortable with on any particular day. But I would avoid going to different casinos in the same chain; that's easy enough to do.

Keep your session short 35 to 45 minutes. Once you reveal your spread leave. Never go from the big bet at the end of the deck/s to a smal bet at the beginning of a new one.

Put all the playable casinos in some kind of a rotation but don't arrive back on the same day and same shift. D

Don't buy-in, but have casino checks already on your person. Don't color-up. Don't cash in at the cage. Take your checks with you. (Thanks to KJ for this advise I'm passing along.)

Play six- or eight deck with surrender. Use the spread of 1-12 on 6D to16 to 20 on 8D. Open for three or four units.

Play more conservatively at the big chains like Mirage MGM and Caesars--if you're bounced from one you're bounced from all--same thing applies to Station casinos.

Play unrated.

If a suit stares at you don't look up and then look away--total giveaway. Say something like, "Why am I losing so many hands?" Or, "Tell this dealer to give me a blackjack." That should get the suit to quit staring and walk away.

You don't have to follow all the rules in the beginning but eventually you should.

I play blackjack for a living in Vegas. Play some supplemental stuff as well, but I consider myself a professional blackjack player more than anything as 80% of my EV comes from BJ.

Before I answer your questions, I would like to ask a couple. lol.

What is your idea of playing for a living? What kind of money are you looking to make per year?

What limits do you play? spread?

These are important because sadly, Vegas is no longer the place to play high limit blackjack regularly with the hopes of any kind of longevity. Vegas also doesn't have the greatest games. I like to say the benefit of Vegas is quantity not quality. There are still many playable (mediocre) games in close proximity, but high limit play is not tolerated for long. The best you can hope for is mid level play spreading green to mid black, maybe a little more on some weekends, especially holiday or big event weekends.

So if you are a midlevel player, looking to play mid level stakes, play short sessions with a big rotation of mediocre games, what is often referred to as a 'grinder' then Vegas could be your place. Otherwise probably not.

Quote: kewlj

sadly, Vegas is no longer the place to play high limit blackjack regularly with the hopes of any kind of longevity. Vegas also doesn't have the greatest games. I like to say the benefit of Vegas is quantity not quality. There are still many playable (mediocre) games in close proximity, but high limit play is not tolerated for long. The best you can hope for is mid level play spreading green to mid black, maybe a little more on some weekends, especially holiday or big event weekends.

So if you are a midlevel player, looking to play mid level stakes, play short sessions with a big rotation of mediocre games, what is often referred to as a 'grinder' then Vegas could be your place. Otherwise probably not.

Kewlj, just curious. I certainly accept what you say about the Vegas BJ scene -but where else is better?

Kewlj,

im not looking to be a super rich. i just like playing the game and fact that i can make money while i am doing something i can enjoy. maybe somewhere between $80k to $100k per year would be a good number.

i mainly play dd green - mid black and always keep my session short. but after getting backed off, i think i might have to start playing 6d more. what do you play?

Quote: gordonm888

Kewlj, just curious. I certainly accept what you say about the Vegas BJ scene -but where else is better?

I didn't say any place was better as far as 'the scene'.....that's why I live here. :) Certainly better individual games elsewhere, as well as better places for a trip, which is how most professional BJ players, play it now. They travel all over, as opposed to playing one location as I do. I just don't like travel, so I moved to a place (vegas) and adopted a style where the majority of my play takes place right here with minimal travel.

But even for the 'traveling pro', Vegas isn't a bad place to be based out of. I know one professional player that moved here last year and claims he doesn't play blackjack here, just got into some of the supplemental stuff that we all seem to 'find' once we move here. His reasoning for moving to Vegas is that Vegas has a great airport, easy in and out, with lots of airlines serving all parts of the country and reasonable airfare prices to many places.

Quote: deviru

Kewlj,

im not looking to be a super rich. i just like playing the game and fact that i can make money while i am doing something i can enjoy. maybe somewhere between $80k to $100k per year would be a good number.

i mainly play dd green - mid black and always keep my session short. but after getting backed off, i think i might have to start playing 6d more. what do you play?

I play mostly 6 deck, with a limited amount of DD mixed in. There is still a decent amount of pretty good DD games in Vegas, but a lot of it is what we call 'counter traps'. These games are 'hawked' closely and you will get backed off with even a small spread. You need to be real careful with these games, especially at stores that are part of chains or have sister properties, where the loss of one store temporarily can mean the loss of others.

A big part of playing Vegas regularly is learning comfort and tolerance levels. What is accepted, during what days and periods and what isn't. What games are traps. No matter what, to play Vegas regularly, you have to be willing to play short sessions and move around lot. Many players don't like to play that style, but the days of sitting at a table for several hours and grinding and maintaining any kind of longevity are gone.

Quote: kewlj

I didn't say any place was better as far as 'the scene'.....that's why I live here. :) Certainly better individual games elsewhere, as well as better places for a trip, which is how most professional BJ players, play it now. They travel all over, as opposed to playing one location as I do. I just don't like travel, so I moved to a place (vegas) and adopted a style where the majority of my play takes place right here with minimal travel.

But even for the 'traveling pro', Vegas isn't a bad place to be based out of. I know one professional player that moved here last year and claims he doesn't play blackjack here, just got into some of the supplemental stuff that we all seem to 'find' once we move here. His reasoning for moving to Vegas is that Vegas has a great airport, easy in and out, with lots of airlines serving all parts of the country and reasonable airfare prices to many places.



I play mostly 6 deck, with a limited amount of DD mixed in. There is still a decent amount of pretty good DD games in Vegas, but a lot of it is what we call 'counter traps'. These games are 'hawked' closely and you will get backed off with even a small spread. You need to be real careful with these games, especially at stores that are part of chains or have sister properties, where the loss of one store temporarily can mean the loss of others.

A big part of playing Vegas regularly is learning comfort and tolerance levels. What is accepted, during what days and periods and what isn't. What games are traps. No matter what, to play Vegas regularly, you have to be willing to play short sessions and move around lot. Many players don't like to play that style, but the days of sitting at a table for several hours and grinding and maintaining any kind of longevity are gone.

6 years ago the DD S17 $25 min Mirage game was very tolerance of my $25 to $200 spread. I don't play their game anymore because I don't want to say bye-bye to the chain when they pull the plug on my bathtub.

KJ, is this game a counter trap now or do they still look the other way? (Since this was their only DD S17, DAS, DA2 game in their Casino, and times being what they are, I'm going to go for Trap.)

Quote: Greasyjohn

...If a suit stares at you don't look up and then look away--total giveaway. Say something like, "Why am I losing so many hands?" Or, "Tell this dealer to give me a blackjack." That should get the suit to quit staring and walk away.

Floormen may indeed know whether you are counting or not, at least on the occasions when they know their job. Now, certainly, giving a deer-eyed look, then glancing away, is the give-away look of guilt. But so is a false complaint of needing more Blackjacks when you're up. That's treating him like an idiot, (On some occasions, he is not.), This, too, is not in the "comfort zone" that Kewlj warned you about.

Not meaning to assist the dark side (from my POV that is), the more artificial or contrived any interaction is, the more it points to guilt (which, again from my POV, is the situation here, so why display something contrived).

So....You should not act like you're doing anything wrong "if you aren't," - so act like it. (Actually, if you're doing nothing wrong, then you don't need to provide a cover play for it. Cover plays are for card play, not for word play, you can get in too deep engaging floormen. Close-call card play is explainable as a judgment call; but say something fishy or phony to get their attention that's Malarkey to them, you've got too much attention. A ploppy wouldn't care about a Robert DeNiro Look from a floorman, and they know that. - They may be trying to get your goat, so don't send it in to the slaughter. Don't proclaim false innocence - ask for a comp if they stare!)

A floorman's stare is to illicit a reaction or response as a give-away; in this regard, a patronizing false complaint is as guilty as a deer-eye stare.

You can't scare off a knowledgeable floor supervisor by engaging him. You can scare off a stupid floor supervisor by engaging him, but if he were stupid, - you were in no trouble anyway.

Kewlj discusses the comfort zone. Act like you're in it, if you want to get away with something, like card counting.

Quote: Paigowdan

Floormen may indeed know whether you are counting or not, at least on the occasions when they know their job. Now, certainly, giving a deer-eyed look, then glancing away, is the give-away look of guilt. But so is a false complaint of needing more Blackjacks when you're up. That's treating him like an idiot, (On some occasions, he is not.), This, too, is not in the "comfort zone" that Kewlj warned you about.

Not meaning to assist the dark side (from my POV that is), the more artificial or contrived any interaction is, the more it points to guilt (which, again from my POV, is the situation here, so why display something contrived).

So....You should not act like you're doing anything wrong "if you aren't," - so act like it. (Actually, if you're doing nothing wrong, then you don't need to provide a cover play for it. Cover plays are for card play, not for word play, you can get in too deep engaging floormen. Close-call card play is explainable as a judgment call; but say something fishy or phony to get their attention that's Malarkey to them, you've got too much attention. A ploppy wouldn't care about a Robert DeNiro Look from a floorman, and they know that. - They may be trying to get your goat, so don't send it in to the slaughter. Don't proclaim false innocence - ask for a comp if they stare!)

A floorman's stare is to illicit a reaction or response as a give-away; in this regard, a patronizing false complaint is as guilty as a deer-eye stare.

You can't scare off a knowledgeable floor supervisor by engaging him. You can scare off a stupid floor supervisor by engaging him, but if he were stupid, - you were in no trouble anyway.

Kewlj discusses the comfort zone. Act like you're in it, if you want to get away with something, like card counting.

.

I would only say, "Why am I losing so many hands ?" when I'm losing a lot of hands. And I would only say, "Tell this dealer to give me a blackjack" when I haven't gotten a black jack in a while. Both statements were said in the same vein. You assumed that I was complaining about needing more blackjacks when I was up.

I'm friendly enough with the pit, polite and have a sense of humor when I lose. Most of the time I elicit a favorable, friendly and respectful reaction from the suits. I appear natural and at ease because I am.

I've read a lot about scams, cheating and tells. I'm confident that my interactions with the suits looks natural and not contrived. And I have the discretionary comps and longevity to prove it.

If you're counting cards, then your goal is to fly under the radar. Your goal is to disengage the management. There are no friendly and innocent discussions with them IF it involves YOUR game play technique, or the resultant wins versus losses thereof. If you're a winning counter, you absolutely don't want them to look into this or open up a discussion on this with them. If you're a losing card-counter, then you're in the wrong profession. This is a Boolean. (Unless you can work out a comfort-zone arrangement, unlikely in most cases.)

As far as I know, there are no necessary cover plays with chit-chatting unless you're an Oscar-award winning actor, and even Ben Affleck blew it at the Palms. (Who the *** are you like an actor talking ****?) Everything you say or claim as chit-chat has to match the play that they themselves have observed, and it won't. If it doesn't, you may be toast.

Keep in mind that the floor personal had seen it all and heard it all, and can pull up your win and loss record if carded, or had tracked play for the session so far of uncarded, or that they remember your face, play, and action.

Why wake up a sleeping Giant - just to talk about your game play - who has access to surveillance - by engaging them after a glance?

If they're staring you down, then don't actively approach them to discuss your game play sessions with them if they leave you alone aside from a look, - because if they may actively look into it, and they may review it and state otherwise.

If they are not asking you questions, then why get them to ask you questions, aside from really innocent stuff like comps or shows, which is not game play related?

What I am saying is that if you are playing under the radar, and they haven't spoken to you, then don't engage them, and a look might not be engagement.

Every card counter may get a little bit uncomfortable or paranoid from a "De Niro" look from a floor supervisor, but it might be better to let it go.

Anything that falsely or truly says: "Hey, I think I'm just losing here, why are you bothering me?...." might be asking them, "can ya look into my play and action here..." This may not be what you want.

Because what you want is from them is to NOT look into your play... Comps are based on just buy-ins and time played (summary records), don't discuss deeper play if not prompted....if you're uncarded, then why even talk to them if they don't approach you?

I have to say PGD has been more helpful than usual in this thread. No mention of how we (card counters and AP's) are the scum of the earth...lol.

I like (agree) with some of the things he has said. I think it is better to try to fly under the radar and play levels, style and even session length that are tolerated and don't draw attention, vs trying to 'trick' them with cover plays and/or some elaborate act, as some do. Also remember that anything you say is completely lost on surveillance. They aren't hearing, buying, nor influenced by your tales of losing and not having received a blackjack in an eternity.

We have seen and heard tales of the really high stakes guys coming up with an elaborate story trying to fit in or explain their higher stakes play. Semyon playing the son of a Russian arms dealer comes to mind. I just think that kind of thing makes you stand out and makes you MORE memorable which is counter-productive to your goal. Also, eventually you screw up and leave out or add some detail which exposed the whole thing. As PGD said, we are not Oscar winning actors or actresses, if we were we would be making big bucks in Hollywood. :)

I do have a question about this -> "Comps are based on just buy-ins and time played (summary records)" statement PGD. I am not a guy playing for comps, as I play unrated the majority of time, but I was under the impression, buy-in no longer is part of the equation. It's just time and amount of play. Back when Rubin wrote "Comp City" buy-in mattered and a large buy-in could be used to get larger comps than earned, but I think those days are long gone

Kewlj,

Comps are actually and generally based on only average bet and timed play, but cash buy ins can be a consideration, though much less so nowadays.

But big play with no cash buy-ins can be under very great suspicion.

Anyway, Kewlj, thanks for the kind words. (Not that I shall now take a shower and say a Rosary, being on that other side, just do agree indeed....)

All good.

Dan.