Questions from a newbie

Hi everyone,

I'm a newcomer to both this site and to blackjack and enjoy playing the game at a local casino (Spokane, WA). Compared to some of the folks on here, I'm purely a 'penny-ante' type of gambler, playing almost purely for fun. I take a $60 bankroll to the casino, flat bet $3(!) a hand, which can often let me play for an hour or more (once for three hours). As an aside, what I like about this tiny casino is that when I get a BJ (which pays 3:2), I get a 50-cent piece as part of my winnings. When I return home for the evening I can count the number of BJs I had by the number of 50-cent pieces in my pocket, which go into my piggy bank.

I took the time to memorize basic strategy (6 decks, NS, H17--did I get those acronyms right? no surrender, dealer hits a soft 17) and feel that I play perfect basic strategy. Yet I'll still get my ass kicked at the table, which, as everyone here knows, is really frustrating. (However, that's when I'm glad I'm only losing $60 at that session, as opposed to the hundreds of dollars I see others around me lose!)

Anyway, I figure that my next level of training should be card counting. So, here are my questions to the community:

1. Since I'm not playing to walk away with tons of money, what I really want to do is improve my winning percentage. My little knowledge of card counting leads me to believe that most systems have to do with how much to wager and when to wager it. First question: at what point does card counting alter basic strategy?

2. As a beginner card counter, what would be a good system to learn? (I have a free card counter app for my iPad that uses the Hi-Lo system, so I've done a little with that.) Can you recommend a good book for my situation?

Sorry for the lengthy intro. Thanks for any advice you can give me. I'm happy to be part of this community.

Theorie

Welcome Theorie.

First learning basic strategy is a great first step. BUT that only reduces the house advantage. You are still playing at a slight disadvantage, and as you play most days that slight house advantage will still grind away your $60 bankroll until it is gone. It is similar to churning through your small bankroll several times on a slot machine or video poker machine, The house edge will slowly eat up your funds. Once in a while you may experience a winning day as well. But that is just variance.

Card counting is the second step that can flip that advantage from the house to slightly in your favor. I recommend hi-lo, because it is fairly easy and also the most common strategy, so there is plenty of info available. As you learn more about counting you will read about other counts and even read some debates about the different counts. You can decide whatever you like down the road. But for the record, hi-lo is just fine. I am in my 12th year of playing blackjack for a living and I play hi-lo. I did switch to a different count earlier in my career, but switched back after 18 months, deciding that hi-lo is just fine. Even though hi-lo (level 1 count) is considered a simpler level count compared to some others, more professional players play hi-lo than any other count. That right there should tell you it works fine.

This is a good site, with a number of good and professional or semi-professional players as well as some knowledgeable part-time and recreational players. Romes has some real good material he will hook you up with for starters. There are a couple of sites dedicated strictly to blackjack, BJ21, which does have a membership fee to access the beneficial information and another that I will not name as I personally can no longer recommend it. It is my opinion some of the membership there are offering bad advice, especially to new members and steering them down the wrong road. I recommend continuing to participate here. You will get some good advice here. :)

Good luck & looking forward to your participation.

Hi Theorie, it's a pleasure to have you with us! First off I'd like to start off with two disclaimers.

1. While I have experience counting, I am far from being the most knowledgeable on the topic when compared to other members of this board. I'd lend a bit more credibility to what they say if it contradicts me.
2. There has been some tension on the board lately, and as a result some newcomers have been both justly and unjustly treated with caution and suspicion.
Onto the questions.

It would be helpful to know what you mean by winning percentage. Do you mean the percentage of trips you're a winner? Or do you mean the amount you're expected to win each trip? If you mean the latter then it would be important to learn about betting with your advantage. Like you said, it's how much and when. There are also index plays, which are plays you do opposite of basic strategy depending on the count, splitting tens is an example. Most of the time you will stick to basic strategy; you will still use basic strategy probably 80% of the time.

The Hi-Lo count is the one that is most widely used. I'd advise it if you ever see yourself wanting to do any team play with others. Otherwise the most important factor to determine which counting system to use is the ease in which you can use it. Some are complicated requiring you to keep a main count and count aces separately. Others don't even use the discard tray for division and rely only on the running count.

If you're aiming for simplicity I'd advise the KO Count or Arnold Snyder's Red Seven Count.

Feel free to ask more, that's what we're here for!

Thanks, kewlj &Minty for the replies.

Minty as regards winning percentage, what I'm hoping to improve is the number of hands I win, regardless of the amount of the wager. I understand that as one increases the wager, winning a larger bet can compensate for losing several smaller ones.

Bus as I've read on here, wouldn't certain plays mark me as a card reader? (Or do you call them advantage players on here?) I mean, standing on 15 v. 10 is something I've seen poor players do, so that play might pass by the dealer without so much as a second thought. However, I've never split 10s. Wouldn't that play raise suspicion? The small place I play has only 2 rooms: a poker room and a room with 5-6 tables for card playing--and only a single table dedicated to straight BJ. I've been going there for about 7 months now, maybe 2-4x monthly. I think some of the dealers recognize me, but they don't know my name or anything. I would hate to be asked not to come back, as there aren't a lot of places to play in town. Or, at such a small amount of wagering, would they even bother to take an interest in me?

I do understand the terms 'running count' and 'true count,' but don't know what "index play" is. (I can guess from your example.)

As a beginner, I'll look into the KO and Red Seven (or those simpler than Hi-Lo?). Once I get comfortable with one of the systems I'll try it out and report back.

Thanks again.

Theorie

Yup, index plays refer to unconventional ways to play hands depending on the count. You're right in saying that some plays would attract more attention than others (splitting tens is a good example). Other plays are more common in their use and more valuable like taking insurance, standing on 16 and standing on 12 vs. 3. These plays are things that less experienced players do and they won't draw too much attention. These plays will help you win a few more plans, but it isn't a huge number.

I don't want to say that they won't take an interest in you. Generally, playing with a small bet spread like a 1-8 with a $5 bet I'd say you're safe. However, some casinos are less tolerant of card counters (the term is "sweaty" for casinos that are vigilant for advantage players). I would guess that they would not bar you from playing, but that depends on you. Would you spread your play across multiple shifts and days? Would you stay for only short sessions? These things would be beneficial to you.

Yes, those two counts are nice because they don't require a conversion to the true count. So if adding and dividing while figuring out bet sizes and index plays is too much to do simultaneously (it can be!) then one of those might be good to begin with. I used the Red Seven and then moved to a more difficult count, but it was a nice starting point.

The most important thing to remember is that you should be adequately funded if you hope to make any money in the long-term. If you don't want to run out of money, I'd advise having a minimum of $2,000 available. If you're just playing for fun and don't mind losing than it isn't as important.

Best of luck! You can't ever educate yourself too much either!

Quote: theoriemeister

Thanks, kewlj &Minty for the replies.

Minty as regards winning percentage, what I'm hoping to improve is the number of hands I win, regardless of the amount of the wager. I understand that as one increases the wager, winning a larger bet can compensate for losing several smaller ones.

Bus as I've read on here, wouldn't certain plays mark me as a card reader? (Or do you call them advantage players on here?) I mean, standing on 15 v. 10 is something I've seen poor players do, so that play might pass by the dealer without so much as a second thought. However, I've never split 10s. Wouldn't that play raise suspicion? The small place I play has only 2 rooms: a poker room and a room with 5-6 tables for card playing--and only a single table dedicated to straight BJ. I've been going there for about 7 months now, maybe 2-4x monthly. I think some of the dealers recognize me, but they don't know my name or anything. I would hate to be asked not to come back, as there aren't a lot of places to play in town. Or, at such a small amount of wagering, would they even bother to take an interest in me?

I do understand the terms 'running count' and 'true count,' but don't know what "index play" is. (I can guess from your example.)

As a beginner, I'll look into the KO and Red Seven (or those simpler than Hi-Lo?). Once I get comfortable with one of the systems I'll try it out and report back.

Thanks again.

Theorie

First off, I would edit out the casino name and location. You already stated that you have been playing at this place for x amount of time and always make a bet of x. Who knows, maybe someone can identify you based on that information now that you a suddenly making larger bets. Maybe I am paranoid about things like this, but I like to be safer than sorry.

Secondly, do you really think the dealers care if you hit or stand 15 v 10? I predict no. They are just trying to get through the day, they are not paid enough to analyze your play. They see bonehead plays all day, heck most of them don't even know if a play was a bonehead play or a right play. So if you go against basic strategy, no one really cares since no one is really paying attention. And if they are paying attention to subtle things like this, you probably shouldn't play there. That would indicate that this place is a sweatshop. You will make more money if you play at a place where you can play undisturbed.

But you are right, splitting 10s brings attention in most places, you can skip that index play. I skip it.

And yes, would be a shame to get kicked out of a local place. That's why you don't shit where you eat. So play with a small spread, appear to be a normal gambler, and tip. If you want to be more aggressive, play unrated, stiff the dealers, etc. play at a place far from home.

I don't know if this is an actual casino or card room, but I used to go to the small card rooms out in Tacoma, WA and saw a lot of people buying in $100-$200 in all red and place a ton on the betting circle without anyone batting an eye. I don't know if this is a local thing, or an Asian thing (mostly Asians at the card rooms). Basically what I'm trying to say is that I would find out the betting patterns of the locals in your area and see if that is great camouflage that works with your counting.

I miss those small cardrooms, they always gave me a food comp no matter what and they really seem to appreciate having players in there.

Quote: theoriemeister

... feel that I play perfect basic strategy. Yet I'll still get my ass kicked at the table, which, as everyone here knows, is really frustrating. (However, that's when I'm glad I'm only losing $60 at that session, as opposed to the hundreds of dollars I see others around me lose!)

Hi and welcome,
When I go to bricks and mortar casino, its usually £50 to £100 buy in and I play until money doubled ( sometimes trebled) or lost or two hours expired, whichever comes soonest: mostly flat betting 3 to 5.

I expect to walk out with something about 40% of the time and never feel i get my ass kicked. That makes me wonder if there is something wrong with your game, either missing cards, or bad memory/perception of your own results. Do you sometimes go a bit mad and throw in big bets when your br is low or high?

Hi-lo is easy and plenty good enough to see results, but unless you can wong out, back count our ramp your bet, you won't actually see benefit. But it can be fun to at least aspire to be an ap.

Welcome.... Counting cards in BJ is not that difficult. With practice you should be able to master the skills necessary. However, using that knowledge requires a bankroll that permits a multiple of your base bet, depending on the exact rules of the game, of 6 or 8 or 10 times your base bet. So if you are betting $3 a hand, you must be prepared to up it to $25 when the count is favorable. Kewlj will be able to tell you better than I what type of bankroll you would need to use card counting to turn the edge in your favor. Also, you must be prepared, both financially and emotionally, to lose, even while card counting. Kewlj has reported MONTHs of being behind while doing everything correctly due to just plain bad luck, here referred to as 'negative variance'. If your goal is to just have some fun by doing something new at the BJ table, go for it! But if you are thinking about reliably making money there, that is a whole different story. Good luck!

Step #1: Listen and take as much advice as you can from KewlJ, at least when it comes to card counting or baking brownies. He's great at both.

I didn't really read what others wrote, so forgive me if I'm repeating anything, but this is what I would do if I were in your shoes:

#1 Learn Basic Strategy PERFECTLY. Everyone says they know basic strategy, but very few do. Off the top of your head, what do you do with a soft 18 versus 9? What about 2? What do you do with Soft 15 verse 2? 4? 6? What about 2,2 verse 7? 4,4 verse 4? 7,7 vs 8? 9,9 vs 2, 7, or 9? This should be automatic and obvious once you've mastered basic strategy.

#2 Practice counting by grabbing a single deck of cards, flip over one card at a time, and keep count. Once you've finished the deck, you should end up with 0. Take your time, perfection is key, don't go too fast. Do the same thing, but flip over 2 cards at a time. You can "cancel out" cards, like if you have a TEN and a 6, you know they add up to 0....so you don't have to mentally subtract 1 from the count then add 1 to the count, you just don't add anything.

#3 Speed it up, once you're doing it perfectly. Don't go too fast. But eventually, you should be able to count down a deck (using both methods) in under 30 seconds. You can also remove 2 cards from the deck [face down], so when you finish counting down the deck, you can verify if you are correct or not. Might not make sense right now why you'd do that....but once you start practicing, you'll see why removing 2 cards from the deck is useful in determining if you're accurate or not.

#4 Practice playing blackjack and counting. You can grab a 2 decks, shuffled together. Deal yourself 2 hands and deal 1 hand to the dealer. You don't need chips and all that stuff. But once you play out the entire 2 decks of cards, again, you should end up with a count of 0.

#5 Learn index plays. These are deviations from regular basic strategy. For example, basic strategy says to HIT a 12 vs 3. But if the count is high enough, you wouldn't want to hit 12 vs 3. You should first learn the illustrious 18 (the 18 "best" index plays). The more you play and whatnot, the more index values you can learn down the road. But initially, just learn the Ill-18. If you are permitted to surrender (Late Surrender, or LS), learn the Fab-4 (Fabulous 4 surrender) index plays.

#6 Learn and practice deck estimation. This is kind of tricky. But get 6 decks of cards. The best way to do this, IMO, is to number each card, 1 through 312. The bottom card should be #1 and the top card should be #312. [PS: Keep these cards in order.] Take a piece of paper and write down the # at which there will be 1 deck (52), 2 decks (104), 3 decks (156)...etc. You can also do it for half-deck increments, although that isn't necessary. 0.5 decks is 26, 1.5 decks is 78....etc. Take the full standing 6 decks, pick some amount of cards off the top, like half, then estimate how many decks you see in the original stack. Keep doing this, but pull different amounts off. With a bit of practice, you'll be able to tell if there's 1 deck, 2 decks, 3 decks, 4 decks, or 5 decks just by looking at it. With more practice, you can figure out down to the half deck increment, like if there's 1.5 decks. But, that is also not necessary.


I'm sure there's stuff I'm forgetting (I know there is).

But there's an awesome "blackjack school" (or trainer or something) at blackjackinfo.com. It's basically a tutorial and will take you through each of the steps required in order to learn how to count cards.


If you're serious about it, you can purchase CVBJ from qfit.com -- CVBJ is computer software used to practice card counting. It's awesome, because it keeps track of the count, so you can check to see if your count is accurate, it alerts you when you make a mistake, and it's pretty easy to use. It's much easier to practice on the computer than by using real cards on your living room table.

I would use the Hi Lo count.

Check out Professional Blackjack by Stanford Wong. I have a bunch of other books I recommend (can't think of the names of them now). Read a lot on forums or in books. Ask lots of questions. If you're unsure about something, ask.


Good luck.

Hey Theoriemeister, and welcome to the forums!

Quote: kewlj

...This is a good site, with a number of good and professional or semi-professional players as well as some knowledgeable part-time and recreational players. Romes has some real good material he will hook you up with for starters...

But of course =p.

As kewlj pointed out, there's a lot of good, reliable information on this site. A little bit back I compiled an A-Z Counting Cards in Blackjack thread. This thread should walk you through each step, answering every single on of your questions in your OP (and much much more). In it I try to break down each section and not only explain why, but show the math PROOF behind it. Feel free to give it a read, and a reread, then post any questions you may have =).

A few quick notes:

- Your win percentage in blackjack is about 42% (again discussed in the thread but 42.42% can be found here). This is not your expected value (w/ perfect basic strategy at the game you mentioned above the house edge is -.64%). The reason the house edge is much lower because on the hands you win you may double, split, or blackjack to win more than the 1 unit you'd normally lose on most hands. If you flat bet $3 for 2 hours (on average) and play 75 hands per hour (on average), then your EV = -$2.88 per hour. It's VERY important to know how to calculate this number, as when you have a winning game you'll be able to tell us all how much you'd expect to MAKE per hour instead ;).

- At the game you're referring to, and the limits you play, you will not make a ton of money. This doesn't seem like your major concern, but I wanted to let you know that. You'll go through the process of learning/practicing/etc and then you will be able to confidently say you can beat the game. Then you'll do the math and realize you're only making ~$5.00/hour. If you're fine with this, fantastic, but if you're like most others here the Advantage Player (AP) in you will kick in and go "Hey, I can beat this game. If I'm going to play, why not make a little more?" Just be careful to consider bankroll limitations and Risk of Ruin (RoR). Again, these are all things discussed in my thread I linked you to previously. This is why rereading it is very beneficial =).

If you read through the thread I posted (and reread) but find yourself with some very technical questions, perhaps about Standard Deviations, Variance, etc, feel free to message me. I recently wrote 3 articles for the Wizards articles section of this site that took the thread I posted and expanded it 5 times with a lot more detail. I'd be happy to email you the articles if you want.

Again, welcome to the forums! I think you'll have a lot of fun with this... People say it's a grind (and it is to do it professionally) but if you're here, it's because you share a passion for the game as most of us do =). Feel free to post further questions!

Quote: theoriemeister

Thanks, kewlj &Minty for the replies.

Minty as regards winning percentage, what I'm hoping to improve is the number of hands I win, regardless of the amount of the wager. I understand that as one increases the wager, winning a larger bet can compensate for losing several smaller ones.

Bus as I've read on here, wouldn't certain plays mark me as a card reader? (Or do you call them advantage players on here?) I mean, standing on 15 v. 10 is something I've seen poor players do, so that play might pass by the dealer without so much as a second thought. However, I've never split 10s. Wouldn't that play raise suspicion? The small place I play has only 2 rooms: a poker room and a room with 5-6 tables for card playing--and only a single table dedicated to straight BJ. I've been going there for about 7 months now, maybe 2-4x monthly. I think some of the dealers recognize me, but they don't know my name or anything. I would hate to be asked not to come back, as there aren't a lot of places to play in town. Or, at such a small amount of wagering, would they even bother to take an interest in me?

I do understand the terms 'running count' and 'true count,' but don't know what "index play" is. (I can guess from your example.)

As a beginner, I'll look into the KO and Red Seven (or those simpler than Hi-Lo?). Once I get comfortable with one of the systems I'll try it out and report back.

Thanks again.

Theorie

Welcome, fellow blackjack player! If you are playing the correct basic strategy for H17 in that tiny casino they'll probably notice you for that alone.

How about a web site, Theorie? Got to Qfit.com and enter a whole new world. Enjoy!

Quote: RS

...or baking brownies...

Quote: RS

Step #1: Listen and take as much advice as you can from KewlJ, at least when it comes to card counting or baking brownies. He's great at both.

Cookies RS! My mom recently showed me how to make her Tall House Cookies. I hope I can be good at that. :)

Also, thank you for the compliment but I am not 'great' at card counting. I have managed to pick up some things from other players along the way and come up with a plan of attack that works for me and my situation and I have learned to 'co-exist' with variance somewhat, to the point that I can grind out a living. I am happy about that.

Quote: kewlj

...Also, thank you for the compliment but I am not 'great' at card counting. I have managed to pick up some things from other players along the way and come up with a plan of attack that works for me and my situation and I have learned to 'co-exist' with variance somewhat, to the point that I can grind out a living. I am happy about that.

I've never yelled at you kewlj, but dammit don't you dare say that. You are in fact great. You HAVE to be in order to be at the level you're playing at professionally and to have the results you have. Every card counter picks up things here and there from other players/situations/etc along the way, but how you take them all and apply them to your personal knowledge and plan of attack speaks a lot to just how great you are. You are one of the greats. So even if you're too humble to say it, I'll say it for you.

Quote: theoriemeister

Yet I'll still get my ass kicked at the table, which, as everyone here knows, is really frustrating. (However, that's when I'm glad I'm only losing $60 at that session, as opposed to the hundreds of dollars I see others around me lose!)

Anyway, I figure that my next level of training should be card counting. So, here are my questions to the community:

1. Since I'm not playing to walk away with tons of money, what I really want to do is improve my winning percentage.

by how much?

card counting will not do this
if you want to go from winning 42 out of 100 to 49 out of 100 for example

here is from an expert
"There is a common misconception that you win many more hands at higher counts. Unfortunately this is not true."
https://www.blackjackincolor.com/truecount5.htm

i say try another game to have a winning percentage higher than BJ
if that is the #1 thing that matters to you the most
Roulette comes to mind at 18/38

Have fun (sounds like you do not)
i have fun
Sally

Quote: Romes

I've never yelled at you kewlj, but dammit don't you dare say that. You are in fact great. You HAVE to be in order to be at the level you're playing at professionally and to have the results you have. Every card counter picks up things here and there from other players/situations/etc along the way, but how you take them all and apply them to your personal knowledge and plan of attack speaks a lot to just how great you are. You are one of the greats. So even if you're too humble to say it, I'll say it for you.

Thank you Romes. I know you mean to be complimentary and I appreciate that. But I am really not one of the greats. I am really a throwback, a dinosaur or relic from the card counting days of yesteryear, applying the same old techniques than most AP's have moved on from quite a while ago.

One of the great AP's of our time (or any time) James Grosgean refers to card counters as salamanders, on the low end of the evolutionary chain of AP's and I really am on the lower end of professional level, card counters. But, I am really quite comfortable with that.

Hey, Romes, great tips, thanks!

When I started to memorize the basic strategy chart, I noticed patterns, which helped. For instance, the initial pairing of soft 13-14, played similarly--doubling only vs. the dealer's 5-6. Then, the next pair (soft 15-16) double vs. dealer 4-6 (the dealer range widens slightly), that sort of thing. And I also looked for patterns to help me remember when to split pairs. I know I got a few raised eyebrows the other week when I doubled a soft 19 vs. the dealer 6, but I knew it was the right thing to do according to basic strategy. Of course, my doubles were not going well that evening and when I lost that hand I'm sure the others were thinking "what an idiot." But my faith remains unshaken! lol

As far as I know, NO casino around here allows surrender, later or otherwise.

But as another post mentioned, it might be in might best interest to try out my card counting skills (once I learn some) at another casino in town, one where I never play. My local place has friendly dealers and amiable players (mostly), so it provides a nice social outlet and I would not want to put that in jeopardy.

Right now I'd have to consider myself a purely recreational player; I can't see myself wagering $50 a hand. When I see someone come in, throw down $400 on the table and walk away empty handed 30 minutes later, I think "who has money like that to throw away?" If I walk away from the table $20 up (1/3 of my bankroll) then I'm pretty happy.

However, once my card counting skills improve, and I feel confident enough, perhaps I can increase my bankroll and begin to wager more.

Thanks to all for their support and making me feel welcome!

Theorie

p.s. @ Sally. I'm actually enjoying the game a lot. I just want to get better at it.

Quote: kewlj

...One of the great AP's of our time (or any time) James Grosgean refers to card counters as salamanders, on the low end of the evolutionary chain of AP's and I really am on the lower end of professional level, card counters. But, I am really quite comfortable with that.

Salamanders are comfortable doing what they do too. Who cares what anyone else thinks. Plus, less competition for us :-D

Quote: theoriemeister

it might be in might best interest to try out my card counting skills (once I learn some) at another casino in town, one where I never play. My local place has friendly dealers and amiable players (mostly), so it provides a nice social outlet and I would not want to put that in jeopardy.

If you're flat-betting, you can play almost forever, almost everywhere.

The biggest thing you'll probably do, if counting and flat betting, is to go to the bathroom* at TC-1 and below. The next biggest thing is start taking insurance at certain counts.

All of these things help you lose slightly less.

The money-makers are still player blackjacks and catching good cards on doubles. Those are modestly improved at higher counts.

Also, scavenger plays - if things look good, and you can buy the rest of someone's "double"-for-less, that can be a good play.

Ordinarily, I suggest looking into machine plays, but I don't suggest it against VLT's ("Class II" machines).


*Or go get a beverage, since the cocktail waitresses are never around when you're thirsty. Or step away to make a phone call.

Quote: theoriemeister

Hey, Romes, great tips, thanks!

When I started to memorize the basic strategy chart, I noticed patterns, which helped. For instance, the initial pairing of soft 13-14, played similarly--doubling only vs. the dealer's 5-6. Then, the next pair (soft 15-16) double vs. dealer 4-6 (the dealer range widens slightly), that sort of thing. And I also looked for patterns to help me remember when to split pairs. I know I got a few raised eyebrows the other week when I doubled a soft 19 vs. the dealer 6, but I knew it was the right thing to do according to basic strategy. Of course, my doubles were not going well that evening and when I lost that hand I'm sure the others were thinking "what an idiot." But my faith remains unshaken! lol

As far as I know, NO casino around here allows surrender, later or otherwise.

But as another post mentioned, it might be in might best interest to try out my card counting skills (once I learn some) at another casino in town, one where I never play. My local place has friendly dealers and amiable players (mostly), so it provides a nice social outlet and I would not want to put that in jeopardy.

Right now I'd have to consider myself a purely recreational player; I can't see myself wagering $50 a hand. When I see someone come in, throw down $400 on the table and walk away empty handed 30 minutes later, I think "who has money like that to throw away?" If I walk away from the table $20 up (1/3 of my bankroll) then I'm pretty happy.

However, once my card counting skills improve, and I feel confident enough, perhaps I can increase my bankroll and begin to wager more.

Thanks to all for their support and making me feel welcome!

Theorie

Here's the thing. You do need to spread fairly big to gain any kind of reasonable long term advantage. Especially with worsening rules and conditions of past years and playing 'mediocre' shoe games. The positive counts where YOU have the advantage rather than the casino occur less frequently, so you need a fairly significant wager out at those times to help overcome all those rounds that you are playing at a disadvantage.

But, there are things you can do that can allow you to gain that advantage without quite so large of a wager on the upper end of your spread. Things like getting out of at least some of those negative counts. Whether your casino allows you to just randomly sit out some hands or you have to get creative with bathroom breaks, phony phone calls, or even just table hopping, playing less negative counts, especially the worst of the negative counts, means less negative situations to overcome and you can do so with a smaller spread or top wager.

The doubling soft 19 topic was recently discussed here in another thread. It is unusual in that it is basic strategy for most games, but most players, even players that normally play pretty good basic strategy don't make that play, so it does tend to stand out a little bit. At low limit, red chip level that should not be an issue. But if you ever decide to move up in stakes, you start to consider these things and just what certain plays 'say' about you as far counting. But don't worry about that now.

Quote: theoriemeister

@ Sally. I'm actually enjoying the game a lot.

while your ass is getting kicked at the table (your words)
and that is frustrating too

ok

Quote: theoriemeister

I just want to get better at it.

you said you want to win more hands (in different words)
in truth
you wants to win more money most of the time
tell the truth

oh
and basic strat will not do that (win more hands)
and
card counting will not do that either

that is why i said to try another game

what you like better
winning 47 out of 100 bets
or
winning 43 out of 100 bets?

not a trick question unless you think it is one

i never have fun getting my ass kicked at a table
at least not yet
Sally

Quote: mustangsally

you said you want to win more hands ...

card counting will not do that ...

Wait, I'm no counter, but don't the index plays do precisely that? If not, why would one vary one's play from BS? And it only stands to reason that if he, as suggested above, left the table when the count was negative (when he is more likely to lose), his win percentage must increase.

But you do make your point, Sally. I'm sure Theorie would be happy winning more $, even if he did not improve his win %. Heck, he could play the penny slots* if he wanted a high win (hit) percentage! He could 'win' on just about every spin!

* I'm not suggesting that you do this, Theorie! :)

Quote: Joeman

Wait, I'm no counter, but don't the index plays do precisely that? If not, why would one vary one's play from BS? And it only stands to reason that if he, as suggested above, left the table when the count was negative (when he is more likely to lose), his win percentage must increase.

But you do make your point, Sally. I'm sure Theorie would be happy winning more $, even if he did not improve his win %. Heck, he could play the penny slots* if he wanted a high win (hit) percentage! He could 'win' on just about every spin!

* I'm not suggesting that you do this, Theorie! :)

True, Joe. I mean, I could play roulette and by playing only even/odd or red/black I could have almost a 50% chance of winning with every spin of the wheel, right? But with all the strategy involved, I think BJ is a much more compelling game.

As for leaving the table when the count is not favorable, there's only one (!) table for BJ, and sometimes I'm the only player, so if I leave the table the shoe will still be unchanged by the time I get back, unless someone else has joined the game in the meantime. Maybe I need to seek out a bigger casino, one with multiple BJ tables?

Theorie

Quote: theoriemeister

True, Joe. I mean, I could play roulette and by playing only even/odd or red/black I could have almost a 50% chance of winning with every spin of the wheel, right? But with all the strategy involved, I think BJ is a much more compelling game.

especially when you make a play that the rest of the table disagrees with and causes them to lose real $$$ and causes vicious and violent vocal outbursts aimed directly at you
ah
you get the picture

You can do what member Don (i really do not know who he is)
suggested, i do not have the link,

and increase your chances of winning by not doubling down, he says,
as in A8 vs dealer 6 (i had A9 first)

i have not studied that a lot, just some,
but there are ways to play every hand you could ever get and max-out your winning probability or decrease your losing probability
at the expense of ev of course

but you want to win more often
so the universe is all yours

my opinion right here and now as dinner is almost served
you should ask the Wizard or even JB if they would be so kind to set up the math for you and start a new trend
play any BJ hand for max win% or less lose % or both

worse they can say would be
no
Sally


forgot to comment on your 50% Roulette

the red/black is about 18/38 = 47.4% win rate (i rounded up)
so you win on average 474 times out of 1000 bets (lose 526)
move over to a craps table and the pass line without any odds will win on average
493 times out of 1000 (lose 507)
sweet like candy!

just like another OVER for the Angels!

Quote: RS

#1 Learn Basic Strategy PERFECTLY. Everyone says they know basic strategy, but very few do. Off the top of your head, what do you do with a soft 18 versus 9? What about 2? What do you do with Soft 15 verse 2? 4? 6? What about 2,2 verse 7? 4,4 verse 4? 7,7 vs 8? 9,9 vs 2, 7, or 9? This should be automatic and obvious once you've mastered basic strategy.

Good luck.

You are absolutely right.
After 10 years of BJ play I thought I play BS perfectly.
But I miss out on this one, soft 18 vs 9. I always stand but would hit soft 18 vs 10.
It is as bad a play as not hitting 16 vs 7.

Quote: Deck007

soft 18 vs 9. I always stand.
It is as bad a play as not hitting 16 vs 7.

Well, that's not true. When comparing which play 'cost' more you need to not only figure what each 'incorrect' play costs, but also the frequency of each play. Soft hands occur much less frequently that hard hands, especially a hard hand consisting of 16 which is very common, so the cost of misplaying that hand is less over time.

But, your point that all these little costs add up is certainly a valid one. With such a small edge, we just can't afford to give up anything to error. Learning and playing perfect basic strategy has to be a no brainer. If you are going to give up anything it should be a calculated decision (cover) based on what you think that is buying you.

You are right. The frequency of each play matters just as much. What I am saying is my BS play is not perfect.
The Wizard had a posting about the advantage in any given play not too long back.
If I am not mistaken the advantage of the right play for 16 vs 7 is about the same as soft 18 vs 9. No?

Quote: Deck007

If I am not mistaken the advantage of the right play for 16 vs 7 is about the same as soft 18 vs 9. No?

I don't honestly know without looking it up or running a sim. If I had to guess, I would guess misplaying 16 vs 7 is the greater penalty, even per occurrence.

I find it interesting that you make the correct play of hitting A7 vs 10, but not A7 vs 9. Why do you think that came about?

I have seen a similar thing with some basic strat players that will hit their 12 vs 2 but not hit their 12 vs 3.

Isn't it the same story.
Hitting the 16 vs 7 ( a counter-intuitive play by most non BS player) whereas hitting 16 vs 10 which is always passable.
Same with soft 18 vs 9 and hitting soft 18 vs 10.

Quote: Deck007

Isn't it the same story.
Hitting the 16 vs 7 ( a counter-intuitive play by most non BS player) whereas hitting 16 vs 10 which is always passable.
Same with soft 18 vs 9 and hitting soft 18 vs 10.

Staying on 16 vs 7 is more costly than staying on 16 vs 10. Staying on soft 18 vs 9 is more costly than staying vs ace or 10. Against an ace it's pretty close. Not so against a 9.

Since we are going to debate this fine point till kingdom comes and me with nothing to do in the week-end I have dug up the precise info here.

Advantage on hitting vs standing 16 vs 7.... 0.06602... (0.476193-0.410173)

Advantage on hitting vs standing A7 vs 9.... 0.08378... (0.182777-0.099039)

So it is 27%... (0.8378/0.6602)... more advantageous and important to hit A7 vs 9 than hitting 16 vs 7.


Reference..https://wizardofodds.com/games/blackjack/hand-calculator/

Quote: Deck007

Since we are going to debate this fine point till kingdom comes and me with nothing to do in the week-end I have dug up the precise info here.

Advantage on hitting vs standing 16 vs 7.... 0.06602... (0.476193-0.410173)

Advantage on hitting vs standing A7 vs 9.... 0.08378... (0.182777-0.099039)

So it is 27%... (0.8378/0.6602)... more advantageous and important to hit A7 vs 9 than hitting 16 vs 7.


Reference..https://wizardofodds.com/games/blackjack/hand-calculator/

That is per occurrence. But you get 16 vs 7 much more frequently than soft-18 vs 9. If you're always going to misplay one and play the other correctly, I'm 99.73% sure it would be better to misplay the soft-18 vs 9, because it occurs much less frequently than 16 vs 7.

Quote: RS

That is per occurrence. But you get 16 vs 7 much more frequently than soft-18 vs 9. If you're always going to misplay one and play the other correctly, I'm 99.73% sure it would be better to misplay the soft-18 vs 9, because it occurs much less frequently than 16 vs 7.

Understood. It is as simple as A,B,C.
There is one Ace and 4 10's cards. so 16 vs 7 would occur at least 4 times more often than Soft-18 vs 9.

More likely much higher than this. You get the 9+7 combination. 8+8 you would split.
Then there is the multi card combination 16.
Time to call in the Mathematicians.
Funny just notice your 99.73% sure figure. What is this.

And I have an interesting story to relate to my 'newbie-ness.'

My first time ever to play BJ was a few years ago (2009?) in Reno. I had never been to Reno and took $20 to gamble. I had never stepped foot in a casino in my entire life and and didn't know anything about BS, but had only played BJ as a kid. But, I gotta be able to tell friends I went to Reno and gambled in a real casino. There was a $5 table at the hotel where I was staying and sure enough, I quickly lost my money. (A very nice gentleman seated next to me offered a little advice, which allowed me to win a couple of times, extending my stay at the table for 1-2 more hands.) I walked away thinking, "I'm gonna learn how to play this game before I play again."

Several few years go by and finally I'm going to Vegas for a convention, headquartered at the MGM. I remember my earlier attempt at playing BJ, so a few days before the trip I research BJ and discover this thing called BS (I believe it was even on the Wizard's site), download a copy onto my laptop and start to memorize the chart. I'm at the MGM and quickly discover how freakin' expensive the food is, but before long I note a Hooter's across the street. I go check it out. It's just what I wanted: reasonably priced food and 2-for-1 drinks during happy hour. Plus, the wait staff is very easy on the eyes--and there's a BJ table for $5 min. (I later learn this was not very common.) This time I had brought $40 to gamble with, so this low roller table was just my cup of tea.

I figure I knew about 75% of the chart [I didn't know how to play all the soft hands and pairs] and sit down by myself at this $5 table. The dealer was a very cute (gotta love Hooter's) and amiable woman. I tell her it's my first real time playing BJ. During my play she actually advised me with BS, pointing out when I should double or hit (on soft hands). Anyway, I leave after about 45 minutes and, after tipping the dealer, I'm up $60! My naive little brain is thinking, "Wow, with some basic strategy how hard can this game be?" Knowing that I plan to return the next day, I DO NOT cash the chips, but take them back to my hotel room at the MGM.

The next morning I go to Hooter's for breakfast, then back to the MGM for the convention. It's now lunchtime and I am horrified to discover that I have lost my wallet sometime between breakfast and noon. Fortunately, I had only about $80 in it. I spend the next 2 hours retracing my steps, talking to security at both Hooter's and MGM, all to no avail. (Of course, all of the cities to lose one's wallet!) So, I'm out of town, have no cash, no credit cards, and no ID. How I am gonna get on an airplane with no ID?? I call and cancel my credit cards (no fraud reported) and Amex will wire me $200, which I can't pick up until the next day. But now, it's dinner time and I'm hungry and have no money---and then realize that I still have $60 worth of uncashed casino chips from Hooter's! (Had I cashed those chips after leaving the table and put the cash in my wallet I would have been really screwed.)

I go cash the chips and have enough money for a cheap dinner and breakfast the next day--but no money to gamble. Later that morning I pick up my wire transfer--which is when I discovered how flippin' long the city blocks are!!--and attend the convention. On my last night I'm back in Hooter's, recognize a few friends from the convention and I sit to join them at a $10 BJ table. Of course, I lost almost all my money and couldn't understand: my play worked so well 2 days before, what the hell had happened?! Still, I went home up $5.

I was able to get on the airplane, but it took an extra 20 minutes to get through security.

I was even more determined to learn BS. I downloaded a BJ app for my iPad and started playing with the chart next to me. I also discovered Wizard's free BJ game on his site. Around the Thanksgiving holiday I decided to try it out for real. I played several times that month, flat betting $5, and after about a month I was almost $300 up at one point. However, reality soon set in and I began to slowly lose my money. Back in March I started a spreadsheet to keep track of my play (still up at that point by around $180). As of July 7 I'm still up $11!

Realizing that I don't want to lose my entire bankroll every time I play, I did more research and learned that ultimately I'm going to have to learn card counting. And then I found this website with it wealth of information, knowledgeable members and great (and often humorous) stories.

So my task this summer is to learn to count cards.

But after all this long-winded (but I hope entertaining) story, my question is: even if my card counting is not perfect, at what point should I go and try it out? Learning how to count the cards quickly and calculate the running or true count is one thing, but I'd have to also memorize the "Illustrious 18" as well. None of the local casinos offer surrender, so I'm not going to bother with the "Fab 4." So, at what point did you take your new card counting abilities into the real world? I'd love to hear some stories, good or bad.

Theorie

p.s. thanks for the warm welcome I've felt here

Quote: theoriemeister

...But after all this long-winded (but I hope entertaining) story, my question is: even if my card counting is not perfect, at what point should I go and try it out? Learning how to count the cards quickly and calculate the running or true count is one thing, but I'd have to also memorize the "Illustrious 18" as well. None of the local casinos offer surrender, so I'm not going to bother with the "Fab 4." So, at what point did you take your new card counting abilities into the real world? I'd love to hear some stories, good or bad.

Theorie

p.s. thanks for the warm welcome I've felt here

It may seem like a monumental task to "perfect" things such as counting and learning the I18, but it really isn't all too difficult. The hardest part is time. It simply takes time to practice your count to the point where it's second nature. This can be done in 1-2 months, if you practice for 1-2 hours per night. Then you'll have the tools available to you for the rest of your life. I18 is the same as basic strategy, except there's WAY LESS to memorize =p. Think of it as an extension to the basic strategy table. Once you have that memorized, here, now look at these extra 18 and memorize them all the same. I personally put them on flash cards and just ran through the stack of them every now and then (between commercials, in between games, on lunch breaks at home, before I went to bed, etc). You'll find that after just a few repetitions you'll have most of it memorized. After a few more, almost all of it. After a few more, all of it... then after a few more, muscle memory =).

Most players, when playing with partners or learning from someone else, will have to "check out" before playing in a casino. This is like an exam to test your skills to see if you're casino ready. You can think of it as a final exam (that if you fail you can take over again after some more practice =p). Here's what I'd recommend:

Whatever your 'home game' is (your closest casino BJ game), replicate that on your dining room table. So I believe you said, 6D H17. Get some poker chips and buy in.

1) Take the burn card and set it aside face down. Put something over it to denote it's the burn card for later review.
2) Deal out 6 hands plus a dealer hand (simulating a full table). You will be in whatever spot you want, and you should have a bet with your chips out. So for simplistic sake let's say you're at 3rd base. There's no need to put chips on the other hands as they are representing other players at a live casino. Play all of these other hands with PERFECT basic strategy, using your card if you must (but at this point you shouldn't need). Be sure to take your bets when you lose and pay your bets when you win (also putting up more chips for doubles/splits). The idea is to exactly mimic a casino environment.
3) Keep track of the RC / TC and bet accordingly. You should have at least a 5-1 spread (this is a good first timer / practice spread). It's easy to remember because the number of units you bet is whatever the TC is. So TC +2 = 2 units, TC +3 = 3 units, etc.
4) Play through the entire shoe playing perfect BS, using your I18, and betting the proper amounts. If the TC goes below -1, you should "sit out" and not deal your hand in, but continue playing the shoe for the other 5 hands (and watch them get slaughtered). Once you get to the end (cut card) you should finish the round and have a RC. Count down the discards with this RC and you should either end up at -1, 0, or +1... This should tell you what the burn card is. Check the burn card to confirm your counting accuracy.

*It's super helpful if you can get a friend/significant other to be the dealer for you. Especially someone that knows the game/casino procedures (i.e. yells at you for trying to touch the cards when you want to split, etc).

When you can do #'s 1-4 for 5 shoes in a row, at a fairly steady pace (so you don't stare and count the cards each round for 10 minutes) then you are technically ready to try casino play. My last caveat, since I like to do things 'right', is you should not play in a casino until you can tell us all what the exact hourly EV for your game is. That is, given your 1-5 spread, given your BJ rules, you should be able to report an exact dollar and cent amount you'd expect to make playing at that game per hour. You can get ALL of this information in my thread I previously linked you to... and also ask questions there if you don't understand anything.

There are 2 different kinds of counters out there... Those that think they have a winning game, and those that know they have a winning game. Which do you want to be?

Quote: theoriemeister

Realizing that I don't want to lose my entire bankroll every time I play,

oh oh
your session bankroll

Quote: theoriemeister

I did more research and learned that ultimately I'm going to have to learn card counting.

well, get ready to lose your session bankroll even more times than just with BS, imo


i think the majority of
experts in BJ
have stated that well over 99.0% of all counters that feel they have an edge
do not have the bankroll to properly use that edge (in other words, they gamble too much)
or something like that
(and no mention of a loss rebate either playing BS only)

in other other words
i think, and maybe others too,
more money is to be made at Wall Street or even sports betting
(Angels OVER again!)

for verification of this
ask Edward O. Thorp (I am going by the road he followed)
I hear he is a very nice guy to talk with

good luck with your studies
thank you for sharing your story 2

Quote: mustangsally

...i think the majority of
experts in BJ
have stated that well over 99.0% of all counters that feel they have an edge
do not have the bankroll to properly use that edge (in other words, they gamble too much)
or something like that
(and no mention of a loss rebate either playing BS only)...

While I don't have an exact percent, I would also conclude with sally that most BJ players that count have no idea about bankroll, risk of ruin (RoR), standard deviations, etc. This is why I put all of these in my thread I pointed you too. This is the difference in 'knowing' you have a winning game.

Quote: 1BB

Welcome, fellow blackjack player! If you are playing the correct basic strategy for H17 in that tiny casino they'll probably notice you for that alone.

How about a web site, Theorie? Got to Qfit.com and enter a whole new world. Enjoy!

Qfit.com, why I remember you from the Blackjackinfo days. You are Norman W. Your moderator friend Sonny if I remember the name correctly used to refer to you as Norm. I am sure kewlj would remember you. There must be lots of other ex Blackjackinfo guys here. Maybe I should do a poll to see the number of ex posters that have found refuge here. They may be the majority of posters here since Blackjackinfo was so well known and the market leader.
I remember you had a long running feud with one other guy and he got banned by your friend Sonny several months before Ken decide to close his site and this may be one of the many nasty things that kewlj was referring to.

https://qfit.com/

Quote: theoriemeister

And I have an interesting story to relate to my 'newbie-ness.'

My first time ever to play BJ was a few years ago (2009?) in Reno. I had never been to Reno and took $20 to gamble. I had never stepped foot in a casino in my entire life and and didn't know anything about BS, but had only played BJ as a kid. But, I gotta be able to tell friends I went to Reno and gambled in a real casino. There was a $5 table at the hotel where I was staying and sure enough, I quickly lost my money. (A very nice gentleman seated next to me offered a little advice, which allowed me to win a couple of times, extending my stay at the table for 1-2 more hands.) I walked away thinking, "I'm gonna learn how to play this game before I play again."

Several few years go by and finally I'm going to Vegas for a convention, headquartered at the MGM. I remember my earlier attempt at playing BJ, so a few days before the trip I research BJ and discover this thing called BS (I believe it was even on the Wizard's site), download a copy onto my laptop and start to memorize the chart. (EDITED for Brevity)

But after all this long-winded (but I hope entertaining) story, my question is: even if my card counting is not perfect, at what point should I go and try it out? Learning how to count the cards quickly and calculate the running or true count is one thing, but I'd have to also memorize the "Illustrious 18" as well. None of the local casinos offer surrender, so I'm not going to bother with the "Fab 4." So, at what point did you take your new card counting abilities into the real world? I'd love to hear some stories, good or bad.

Theorie

p.s. thanks for the warm welcome I've felt here

That's a nice story. I like a good story. Before we had all the electronic gizmos that tech has provided a good story teller was a very esteemed position in many societies.
I still value a good story teller today.
Who knows what tomorrow will bring?
Good stories are, well they're good stories.

Quote: Deck007

Qfit.com, why I remember you from the Blackjackinfo days. You are Norman W. Your moderator friend Sonny if I remember the name correctly used to refer to you as Norm. I am sure kewlj would remember you. There must be lots of other ex Blackjackinfo guys here. Maybe I should do a poll to see the number of ex posters that have found refuge here. They may be the majority of posters here since Blackjackinfo was so well known and the market leader.
I remember you had a long running feud with one other guy and he got banned by your friend Sonny several months before Ken decide to close his site and this may be one of the many nasty things that kewlj was referring to.

https://qfit.com/

Wow! I am not Norm. Norm would never come on another site and hawk his wares.

Blackjackinfo was run by Ken Smith.

Norman Wattenberger (Norm) runs Blackjack:The Forum.

There are former posters from those sites here but most of them limit their participation because this is not an AP forum.

Anyone even remotely serious about blackjack would benefit greatly by looking into qfit.

Does anyone have Casino verite and run it on a Mac? I'm using OS X Yosemite, and at first glance it appears that CV won't work.

p.s. I've begun to learn card counting and will update everyone once I actually put it in play. On another note, I went to my local casino yesterday with my typical $60 bankroll, playing only BS and $3 flat betting. I played head-to-head with the dealer. (Isn't that what it's called when it's just you and the dealer?) The first shoe was a toughie, bringing me down to about $25. The second shoe was just the opposite. I went on a winning streak and left the casino after about 15 minutes with $83.50. (The dealers change every 15 minutes at this place.) I had only 1 BJ during my play, yet I increased my bankroll by 39%. Not bad. From reading all the comments on this site I've learned that I just had a good run of cards and to stop while I was ahead.

Quote: theoriemeister

...p.s. I've begun to learn card counting and will update everyone once I actually put it in play...

If you're learning card counting I would more than expect to hear back from you with questions much prior to any actual casino play. Unless you're a savant, you probably won't have everything you need to know down pat in a short period of time. I'm glad you're taking the time to learn though! Remember, even if it takes a couple months to really get it all down, these are skills you'll have for the rest of your life. A couple months is a pretty small investment at that point =).

I'm glad to see you had good variance when you played recently. If you want to play that bad though, why not play/practice at home so you're not losing EV?

Quote: theoriemeister

Does anyone have Casino verite and run it on a Mac? I'm using OS X Yosemite, and at first glance it appears that CV won't work.

p.s. I've begun to learn card counting and will update everyone once I actually put it in play. On another note, I went to my local casino yesterday with my typical $60 bankroll, playing only BS and $3 flat betting. I played head-to-head with the dealer. (Isn't that what it's called when it's just you and the dealer?) The first shoe was a toughie, bringing me down to about $25. The second shoe was just the opposite. I went on a winning streak and left the casino after about 15 minutes with $83.50. (The dealers change every 15 minutes at this place.) I had only 1 BJ during my play, yet I increased my bankroll by 39%. Not bad. From reading all the comments on this site I've learned that I just had a good run of cards and to stop while I was ahead.

Holy crap! You played on a $3 table, one on one. Where were you? I would love to be able to play on a $10 table, one on one. I usually wind up on a full $10-$15 table after I wait for a spot to open. My life sucks. Not really, let me rephrase, my gambling life sucks!

Quote: Romes

If you're learning card counting I would more than expect to hear back from you with questions much prior to any actual casino play. Unless you're a savant, you probably won't have everything you need to know down pat in a short period of time. I'm glad you're taking the time to learn though! Remember, even if it takes a couple months to really get it all down, these are skills you'll have for the rest of your life. A couple months is a pretty small investment at that point =).

I'm glad to see you had good variance when you played recently. If you want to play that bad though, why not play/practice at home so you're not losing EV?

Romes: I didn't try to count cards at this session, I just wanted to play and use BS. I enjoy it, and because I happen to have had a good run, I enjoyed it even more!

Currently I'm just counting a single deck at home and can do it in about 45". I know I need to bring down that speed to around 30". (In an earlier post RS suggested that as a time threshold.) I've ordered a used copy of Blackjack Attack (2e) to supplement my training. So, it's still going to be a while before I can put it to the test.

A side question: I know that the A-5 system is pretty simple. I understand that it's not as powerful as the Hi-Lo, but is it possible to learn it in a few weeks? (I've got a trip coming up and I may have the opportunity to try it.)

@2Feathers: I play in eastern WA. Since I'm new to BJ, I haven't had chance to scope out all the casinos (2-3?) in town. The 'casinos' are just card rooms (poker, Spanish, PaiGow, BJ) and the min = $5 at the one other place I've visited. I usually play late afternoon--sometimes they don't even open the BJ table 'til then!--and fairly often at this time of the day I can be the only player at the table. The local Indian casino has $3 BJ (only 1 table of the many), but it require a $1 side bet. (That table is ALWAYS full.) The last time I played there I remember that they hand shuffled 6D!

I'd (given my bias =p) recommend you read and re-read my thread I pointed you to and referenced numerous times now. Everything, including training, is discussed in there. Wouldn't be much of an A-Z if it wasn't =).

Quote: 1BB

Anyone even remotely serious about blackjack would benefit greatly by looking into qfit.

I recommend Norm's software products. I recommend Norm's book, 'Modern Blackjack' which is available for free at his site. But I no longer recommend anyone, especially newer players participate on that forum.

There is just 'bad' advice being given out by a handful of self proclaimed experts. Norm allows this to happen because his top priority is maximizing site traffic leading to higher google rankings, which in turn means more visitors to the site that he can hopefully sell his products to. A number of professional players, myself included have ceased participating (our choice) in the last couple weeks, because of this deteriorating situation.

If someone is serious about card counting and blackjack, and looking for a site devoted strictly to that topic, I recommend BJ21.

Quote: kewlj

...There is just 'bad' advice being given out by a handful of self proclaimed experts...

Experts my a$$. They spend to much time typing and zero time playing.