For New Players Considering Counting - Casino Heat

Of course anyone considering learning card counting will be concerned about a casino's reaction to your doing this.
It might be useful for you to know that generally, with few exceptions, LARGE casinos will not be concerned about any player betting less than $100.
If you do not have ambitions of becoming a big bettor you can pretty much count cards to your hearts content.
Counters make money on their spread - the ratio of their small bet to their big bet.
Because there are very few $5 tables you will need to play on a $10 or $15 table.
So your spread is relatively small - 9.5 to one or 6 to 1.
You can reduce the problem of a small spread by doing some wonging which you will learn about later in your studies.
Also, if you do have to play on a $15 table you could take a chance and go over $100 a little to $125 and see what the reaction is. Probably nothing.
LARGE casinos generally only worry about those betting much bigger than that.
If you do have ambitions of becoming a large bettor you will have an opportunity to learn different ways to handle the problem of casino heat.
The great blackjack players just accept it as being part of the game and if they are backed off just move to a different store until they are forgotten.
Winning at blackjack is not easy.
But worries about heat should not be something that stops you from doing this if that is what you want to do.

Not bad information rooster =). However, I wouldn't encourage a small spread such as 6-1 red chips. At a decent game (.4% HE) and a hard 6-1 spread (max bet 90 out at TC +3), you're still only looking to make $12.81 per hour. This doesn't count any mistakes, etc. While profitable, this is not very profitable. The 9.5-1 spread at the same game but $10 limits, and again an aggressive spread having the 9.5 out at TC +4, would yield $12.66 per hour. Again, slightly profitable. Also, the only reason these are near each other in EV is became I'm maxing out the spread to try to make them as profitable as possible. These are BOTH considering a decent game of blackjack too (.4% HE)! Most places now days, especially at the red chip limits, are 6 or 8D H17, which is usually a house edge a bit closer to .66% (which in case you're wondering would drag both of those hourly EV's down to $8/hour and $6/hour respectively, $10/$15).

There's also a lot of other conditions one might think about. As you touched on wonging, this will help your EV a lot, but can be quite taxing/boring/etc. To anyone doing this for fun in their spare time (even if it is to kick up a couple extra bucks) they'll probably not hardcore wong in/out. It should be noted the dollars per hour above are already considering the player wongs out at anything less than TC -1.

Overall, you gave great information to think about. I also touched on a lot of this and a lot more in my A to Z Counting Cards in Blackjack thread (which I've revamped, tripled in size, and is going to be released on WoV as 3 articles). In here I give the breakdowns for how to calculate the hourly EV's as well, where you can also play with the spread to maximize the EV.

Quote: lilredrooster

Winning at blackjack is not easy.

It's surprisingly easy, actually.

Beating blackjack is a bit tougher.

As someone who is fairly new to the counting game, I find this thread very interesting. I'm a recreational player who played straight BS blackjack a handful times per year for the last few years. As someone with an engineering background, I found BJ to be interesting from a math perspective...which led me to learn counting (hi-lo). I figured, if I'm going to play this game, why not give myself an opportunity to win more often?

Anyway, I'm a red-chipper who plays $10-15 tables and I typically keep my top bet at $90 (though I've put up four greens on a couple of occasions when there was a monster count and I was feeling frisky). I haven't experienced heat at my bet levels so far (knock on wood). The closest I've gotten to heat was at a $15 table when I was betting $60/75 in a nice count and the dealer asked me if the PB knew I was betting $60 and $75 hands. I replied that I wasn't sure. The dealer responded that she would be glad to let the PB know, because it would get me better comps. I just rolled with it and said "cool, thanks a lot."

For what it's worth, most of my experience counting is in larger casinos in the south and midwest...and my counting experience is pretty limited.

Note that I haven't counted in Vegas yet (though I have a trip planned for later this year), and from reading this and other boards, it seems like quite a few of the casinos with good rules for red chip games would probably sweat this kind of action. I guess I'll find out...

it seems like quite a few of the casinos with good rules for red chip games would probably sweat this kind of action. I guess I'll find out...

I'm not fond of the idea of doing a lot of looking around for great rules or conditions. Those places with great conditions are probably well known about and very crowded and crowds can limit your opportunities. Of course the game offered has to be beatable and cannot be one in which they are playing games with the rules such as paying bj at 6/5. Usually, the difference between great conditions and barely acceptable conditions equals the difference between a 2% edge and a 1% edge. Nobody likes to have their edge one half of what it could be. But you cannot make money driving around or walking around or flying around looking for these games. I'd rather be playing.

Rules & conditions:

Rules don't have that great an effect. Not the difference between 1% and 2% that you mentioned. Unless of course you are talking a rule, like 6/5 that makes the game 'unplayable'. Most negative rules, like h17, limiting double downs or splits, only have about .2% effect.

Condition (excluding rules) are much more important. Penetration being huge. Just a little increase in penetration will almost always overcome the effect of a negative rule (again, excluding something major like 6/5 or dealer wins ties).

After penetration, the next important non-rule condition is crowded tables and somewhat related, side bets. These can slow the game to a crawl and reduce your win rate dramatically. There are even a couple side bets that I play (at the appropriate time) that are advantageous and can add significant EV to my game, but if I am forced to play at a table with 3 or 4 other players, who are placing side bet wagers every round, that is completely negated. I am better off just moving on.

Quote: kewlj

at a table with 3 or 4 other players, who are placing side bet wagers every round

Do you have any data on how much it cuts in? Half speed? One-third?

Quote: Dieter

Do you have any data on how much it cuts in? Half speed? One-third?

This also depends if they and the dealer are competent in the side bets. I've seen newbie players take 5 minutes just to ask questions every round and place the side bets. Now if they're quick about it and place/get paid for their side bets in a timely manner, then I don't think it effects the game "too much." However, this is quite often not the case.

I would say at a good table (where good is defined as 3-4 other players with side bets but they and the dealer are quick about it) if you were getting 80 hands per hour, you'll probably get around 70 hands per hour.

At a mediocre table (perhaps the dealer isn't used to the side bet and needs to look/take a little extra time paying, etc) if you were getting 80 hands per hour, you'll probably get around 60-65 hands per hour.

At a bad table where the players are asking questions, slowing putting bets up, slowly getting paid by an unfamiliar dealer, etc, if you were getting 80 hands per hour, you'll probably get around 40 hands per hour.

These are my educated guesses from my own experiences.

Quote: lilredrooster

It might be useful for you to know that generally, with few exceptions, LARGE casinos will not be concerned about any player betting less than $100.

Do you mean $100 or more being the table minimum or if the bet itself (regardless of what the table is) is $100 or more?

Quote: dutchman

Do you mean $100 or more being the table minimum or if the bet itself (regardless of what the table is) is $100 or more?

Your base bet per hand.

This is really good info. I've noticed when practicing at home that I barely make any kind of headway with a 6-1. Granted I've won a few extra bucks playing for real but in my area the low house edge tables are $25 dollar minimum. I don't have that kind of money to throw down yet. Still, I wonder what will happen at small venues if I up my bets to 8-1 on a red chip table. I'm not afraid to find out.

Would having one of those little basic strategy cards at the table help throw people off? Make it look like you're an amateur?

Quote: dutchman

Would having one of those little basic strategy cards at the table help throw people off? Make it look like you're an amateur?

For a while, until you use an index play.

What's that?

Quote: dutchman

What's that?

An index play is a deviation from basic strategy due to the count. One example is 10 doubles against a dealer 10 at TC +4. Basic strategy says to just hit, but at TC +4 you should double your 10, even against a dealer 10.

Overall, I wouldn't have a basic strategy card at the table. Often casinos sell the wrong ones for their games. Next if you have a correct one then you're just asking the PB to rate you as a basic strategy player (which will lessen your comps than if he thinks you're a poor player). Lastly, it makes it a bit tough to make the index plays especially if someone else is like "That's not on your card, why are you doing that?"

It wouldn't be the ones they sell, it'd be ones I printed out using the BJ strategy engine website that were adjusted to the specific rules of the table.

But what you say makes sense. Damn, thought I had a good idea there

Quote: dutchman

It wouldn't be the ones they sell, it'd be ones I printed out using the BJ strategy engine website that were adjusted to the specific rules of the table.

But what you say makes sense. Damn, thought I had a good idea there

You aren't the first to think of it, and you won't be the last.

The most common index play is 16 vs 10. That's why you'll see a lot of counters say that they always stand on this hand as. 12 vs 4 is another where you hit on a negative count and stand on positive.