Thought I was playing next to an AP...but then he complained the PEN was TOO DEEP
Then, after the dealer deals the first round (this was the beginning of a new shoe), the friend says--in a stage whisper--"see, the count is negative six, so this means the dealer is probably going to bust on his ten." I pretend not to hear him. Then when the dealer DOES bust, the friend says "see, I told you so." (In case you were wondering, the friend was correct about the running count.)
Conversation goes on like this for a few rounds, and ploppy A thinks his friend is a genius. Soon, a spot opens up and friend takes a seat and begins to play. At this point, I'm debating whether to stay at this table. But by now the count has gone very positive (RC ~12, TC ~4), so I am putting big bets out there (for me, anyway) and decide to stay.
Ploppy's friend must have lost the count because he was betting the table minimum and was losing just about every hand. The TC kept rising, and I kept putting out big bets, winning more often than not. Ploppy's friend was not happy about his stroke of luck and started complaining about the penetration--saying that it was TOO DEEP (this dealer had cut off 1 deck of a 6-deck shoe). I wanted to smack him (the friend, not the dealer--obviously).
After that shoe, I never saw that level of penetration again. Perhaps the dealer took ploppy A's friend's admonition to heart.
Anyone else seen players like this? I'm a recreational player and don't have nearly the experience some of you have, so perhaps this isn't unusual. But it struck me as odd, annoying, but a bit amusing as well.
Quote: CallSaulI was recently playing a $10 6D shoe game at first base with 4 other players at the table. There's an open seat to my left and a guy (ploppy A) sits down to play. Standing behind him is his friend. They're chatting a bit, commiserating about how much money they've lost that night...nothing out of the ordinary.
Then, after the dealer deals the first round (this was the beginning of a new shoe), the friend says--in a stage whisper--"see, the count is negative six, so this means the dealer is probably going to bust on his ten." I pretend not to hear him. Then when the dealer DOES bust, the friend says "see, I told you so." (In case you were wondering, the friend was correct about the running count.)
Conversation goes on like this for a few rounds, and ploppy A thinks his friend is a genius. Soon, a spot opens up and friend takes a seat and begins to play. At this point, I'm debating whether to stay at this table. But by now the count has gone very positive (RC ~12, TC ~4), so I am putting big bets out there (for me, anyway) and decide to stay.
Ploppy's friend must have lost the count because he was betting the table minimum and was losing just about every hand. The TC kept rising, and I kept putting out big bets, winning more often than not. Ploppy's friend was not happy about his stroke of luck and started complaining about the penetration--saying that it was TOO DEEP (this dealer had cut off 1 deck of a 6-deck shoe). I wanted to smack him (the friend, not the dealer--obviously).
After that shoe, I never saw that level of penetration again. Perhaps the dealer took ploppy A's friend's admonition to heart.
Anyone else seen players like this? I'm a recreational player and don't have nearly the experience some of you have, so perhaps this isn't unusual. But it struck me as odd, annoying, but a bit amusing as well.
Highly doubtful, but sounds like shills to me.
But keep in mind than not all AP play has the same objective to make money. There is a subset of AP's who's goal is to play a break even game, while accumulating comps. Wanting a slower game with more down (shuffle) time could play into that, as well as seeking crowded conditions. Basically the opposite things money making AP's look for. lol. Flat betting and using the count only for strategy plays could also play into that. But basically, as I said earlier, I doubt this was the case.
Obviously did not even understand significance of penetration. 100% he did not know any indices.
Probably did not actually use 'counting' to increase bets.
Not even a Wanabe AP. Just someone who read a few pages on counting.
Probably his Ev is worse than the BS player because he does not even know what the 'count' information mean.
Quote: kewljDoesn't sound like an AP to me. I don't get the 'dealer to more likely break with a -6 count' reference.
While I don't think it's mathematically accurate, I get what he was driving at: With a low count, the dealer's less likely to have a high card under.
Probably the most annoying "AP" I've run into recently was at Double Attack BJ. After explaining that the count starts at -34 (8-deck, I think, 10s removed...), he went on about how it was currently +12 so we should be all pushing out the big bets and that everybody leaving the table now was crazy. He went from 5 to 10 at this point. Then he asked the dealer to up the penetration so we had more room to enjoy the count.
Around now, I decided that I should stop for lunch, so good luck and, no, you can enjoy the positive count, I'm actually meeting somebody, nah, I'll be leaving right after.
Quote: kewljDoesn't sound like an AP to me. I don't get the 'dealer to more likely break with a -6 count' reference.
Agreed, I just found it odd (and a bit unnerving) for him to openly discuss the count like that.
Anyone in the vicinity of the table could hear what he was saying. I was concerned that his statements would draw attention to our table...especially as I was raising my bets and having a nice little run. But I never noticed any heat (and I left that table after ~30 mins).
Quote: kewljBut keep in mind than not all AP play has the same objective to make money. There is a subset of AP's who's goal is to play a break even game, while accumulating comps. Wanting a slower game with more down (shuffle) time could play into that, as well as seeking crowded conditions. Basically the opposite things money making AP's look for. lol. Flat betting and using the count only for strategy plays could also play into that. But basically, as I said earlier, I doubt this was the case.
Right, and I don't think that was the case for this guy either. Seems more likely that he knew a little bit about counting and was showing off for his friend.
Quote: CallSaulAgreed, I just found it odd (and a bit unnerving) for him to openly discuss the count like that.
Definitely odd, buy why would it be unnerving? To me, keeping a running count is much easier than basic strategy. The count is just kindergarten arithmetic, why would it be a problem to mentioned if you know what it is, especially at a six-deck game?
Quote: TomGDefinitely odd, buy why would it be unnerving? To me, keeping a running count is much easier than basic strategy. The count is just kindergarten arithmetic, why would it be a problem to mentioned if you know what it is, especially at a six-deck game?
I was concerned that it might generate heat. Seems to me that openly talking about the count is the opposite of cover, and would potentially attract unwanted attention from the pit.
It helps me to say the count out loud, so that's what I do almost every time I play. Only been asked to stop three times, once at EC, once at a double deck game after over two hours, and once with a $2 table with a 25-1 spread. Lot of times I even get good ratings and comps
I was playing next to a guy that was a decent basic strategy player and he knew that if there were more big cards left to be dealt we would have an edge. During play when a decent number of small cards were played on the previous hand he would always announce "we've got the edge now".
I was playing this table because this dealer gave significantly better pen than other dealers. This guy was pissed because the dealer cut off way too few cards and wanted to complain to the floor about it. He insisted the "everyone knew that the best player advantage came from cutting off 1.5 decks" from a 6 deck shoe.
When the dealer was shuffling I leaned over to him and quietly asked that if there were a large number of big cards remaining in the shoe to be dealt and we obviously had an edge why in the world would he want that situation to stop because the cut card showed at 1.5 decks instead of being able to continue playing that advantageous shoe.
He gave me a dumb look for a few seconds and then the the light bulb lit and he smiled and shut the hell up about the pen.
Quote: CallSaulAgreed, I just found it odd (and a bit unnerving) for him to openly discuss the count like that.
Anyone in the vicinity of the table could hear what he was saying. I was concerned that his statements would draw attention to our table...especially as I was raising my bets and having a nice little run. But I never noticed any heat (and I left that table after ~30 mins).
Right, and I don't think that was the case for this guy either. Seems more likely that he knew a little bit about counting and was showing off for his friend.
I've often heard players discuss the count out loud(they usually have the correct count too). Sometimes even with the dealer. Now granted this is almost always a $10 table. Their idea of pressing is usually betting $15 instead of $10. So mostly I guess no one cares (including the house) in these situations. Now, on the other hand, if someone was discussing the count out loud (correctly), and playing at a level to hurt the house. I'm sure they'd get shuffled up or flat bet at least.
This goes to my larger point about card counting. Lots of people have seen the movie "21" or read one book on counting. Then, they do it once in their living room, and think they are card counters. At this point one of two things happens. They go to a casino and lose, because they were under bankrolled usually...and can't believe it, because they were counting cards and had an advantage. Or they manage to win the first time or two...happy variance. Then they go back and try to win the mortgage money and at that point they lose. Still they are shocked....where are all the pretty girls and stacks of chips like in the movie they wonder?
Very few people are, disciplined enough, or patient enough, or bankrolled enough, to actually pull card counting off for any meaningful amount of time. I'd say maybe 1-2% of people who try it...if that. If I was a casino manager I'd welcome card counters...I'm sure on balance they'd lose still. The few players that can really hurt the house can still be weeded out.
Quote: 1BBIf I had a nickle chip for every time a pit boss asked me what the count was.... One, long since retired, used to ask me if I has seen Stanford. Whatever was he talking about? :-)
One time a dealer asked me, I asked true or running? We had a good laugh.
