Someone please explain - even if card counting were actually illegal,

Quote: Shadowless

The bottom line is that casinos are in the business of making money and have the right to refuse or limit its services to any customer for any reason, similar to how restaurants have the right to refuse service to any customer for any reason. So whether someone is a counter not makes no difference if the casino feels that the person is a threat and is not profitable.

It is a misconception that restaurants have the right to refuse service for any reason. Much of this misconception comes from the fact that some restaurants hang a sign stating exactly this. But the fact is through numerous legal rulings on the subject the law is pretty clear.

Restaurants while privately owned are places of public accommodation and therefore subject to 'public accommodation laws', which restricted to a specific set of rules for which they may legally refuse service.

1.) unreasonable and rowdy behavior or causing trouble.
2.) patrons coming in just before closing.
3.) patrons that will overfill the restaurant beyond capacity.
4.) patrons accompanied by group of non customers.
5.) patrons lacking adequate hygiene.

#'s 1 & 5 are the two that cover most issues, but are also the two that are most subjective.

Casinos should be subject to a similarly specific set of rules. The 'private club' determination, made by industry-friendly judges, was a way around (loophole) which allows them to avoid the law. Private clubs generally consist of things like the 'Elk or Moose lodge' that are not open to the public. Casinos clearly are NOT private clubs. There is no membership required. They are open to the public and should be subject to 'public accommodation laws'.

Quote: kewlj

Restaurants while privately owned are places of public accommodation and therefore restricted to a specific set of rules for which they may legally refuse service.

1.) unreasonable and rowdy behavior or causing trouble.
2.) patrons coming in just before closing.
3.) patrons that will overfill the restaurant beyond capacity.
4.) patrons accompanied by group of non customers.
5.) patrons lacking adequate hygiene.

#'s 1 & 5 are the two that cover most issues, but are also the two that are most subjective.

Casinos should be restricted to a similarly specific set of rules.

Casinos are. They may consider running down a deck unreasonable game play behavior.

Quote: Paigowdan

Table limits are an accepted practice that is also safe for non-counters. Why should ploppies - who don't unacceptably take advantage of a game - be denied the full game just because a small percentage of players are AP players will try?

And yes, wider table limits make a game more attractive to players. Plus, non-AP players are allowed to raise and lower their bets in blackjack. We see them do it all the time without issue because they're not considered a threat. Because ploppies aren't counting, the house is fine with it. And I'm not saying they play by different rules, they're playing by the same rules: running down the deck may be disallowed, and they're not running down the deck with their bet raises.

And this coming from the guy who's said many times that civilians don't raise or lower their bets.

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

And this coming from the guy who's said many times that civilians don't raise or lower their bets.

And they generally don't - consistently. But they are allowed to as not flat betted.

Quote: Paigowdan

They generally don't. But they are allowed to if not flat betted.

I hope some day that EVERY business you enter for whatever reason, whether shopping, dining, etc., refuses service to YOU! And only just because they want to. I sure would!

Quote: Paigowdan

Casinos are. They may consider running down a deck unreasonable behavior.

I can't tell if you are being sarcastic or serious. Based on your history of unwavering support of casinos, I will assume serious, but based on the constitutional law of the United States, the Nevada ruling protecting casino's by classifying them as private clubs really is wrong.

As I have said before it's fine by me, because I prefer to play the cat & mouse game, which I have become pretty good at, than the New Jersey Model at which casinos protect themselves with nearly unplayable games. I am actually fearful that this new Nevada Ruling will lead to a reversal of the current situation at some point in the (hopefully distant) future. I think it more than opens the door, I think it almost guarantees it, without the lawmakers having even realized it.

This thread is like watching a Keanu reeves movie. It's just so ridiculous that you can't look away.

Card counting is fundamentally different than any form of cheating. The only activities involved in card counting are
- observing
- remembering
- thinking
- changing bet size
- changing game decisions (split, double, stand, hit)

These are pretty much the same as in Poker (all types), Bridge, Pinochle, Spades, Hearts, Gin, Rummy and most other card games involving some degree of complexity.

The last two (changing bet size and game decisions) are explicitly given to players as their rights in the game by the casino. The casinos never state that "players are not permitted to increase their bet size when a disproportionate number of small cards have been played." Incredibly, what the casinos object to are the first three - observing the cards, remembering what cards have been played and thinking about the implications of what has been played. These three activities all occur within a players head, yet the casinos seek to police these activities. The brain is the last frontier of human freedom - people can observe and think and remember all sorts of things and no matter how objectionable our thoughts are, we are free to think. Yet casinos routinely bar players because the players have counted cards in their minds and then taken actions that are otherwise permitted by the casino's disclosed rules. This is the heart and soul of what most of the people on this forum object to.

Paigowdan, you persistently (and passionately) make the point that casinos have a valid business interest in safeguarding their games against financial losses. But casinos control all the rules, terms and conditions of the game of BJ -so why do they "criminalize" mental activities and make "card counting" the hill on which they choose to die? Why don't they change the rules, conditions or terms of the game rather than object to the mental activities that are the birthright and hope of humanity: Observing, Remembering and Thinking?

- they could explicitly post the running Hi-Low count as cards are revealed so that all players can see and know the count. And they could create a rule that says that you cannot increase bet size (or enter the game) when the posted count is +2 or higher.
- they could use CSMs
- they could change the gameplay rules in favor of the house - i.e., player cannot stand on 13 or lower
- they could change the payout rules, Examples: 6:5 on blackjack or 5% commission on all winning hands such as in PGP, or monochromatic blackjacks (two black cards or two red cards) pay even money.

But Las Vegas and the gambling business were spawned/created by organized crime and the tendrils of those roots run deep. In their cowardice and timidity, the casinos prefer to bully people. They prefer to illegally and immorally "back room" people. They prefer to be in charge and order people around and continue to insist that "observing, remembering and thinking" is against the house rules for blackjack.

Paigowdan, most of us respect you for your intelligence and deep understanding of many games. But you are on the wrong side of this argument. You continue to insist that learning and memorizing Basic Strategy and using it at the BJ table is righteous but learning to count high cards and low cards (and using it) is wrongful. Please step back and think about your position. "Observing, Remembering and Thinking" are indeed the birthright and hope of humanity. We will continue to "observe, remember and think" in the schoolroom, on the battlefields, in the laboratory, on the Internet, in the workplace, at the dinner table, in the halls and courts of government - and yes, in the casinos as well. Each private citizen has a valid business interest in safeguarding themselves against financial losses in the casino. We would be less than human if we didn't strive to improve -include improving our expertise at blackjack. It is counterproductive to object to "Observing, Remembering and Thinking" as a basis for action -you might as well stand on the beach with your arms outspread and try to prevent the waves from rolling in.

Kudos to a fine post, gordonm888. Very articulately stated. If you were an attorney, I would say you laid out a case that is very hard to counter, although I am sure Dan will. :/

Quote: kewlj

Quote: Paigowdan

Casinos are. They may consider running down a deck unreasonable behavior.

I can't tell if you are being sarcastic or serious.

I was serious. You stated that restaurants may bar customers if their behavior is unreasonable. What if a casino finds a player's game play behavior unreasonable?

Quote: kewlj

Based on your history of unwavering support of casinos, I will assume serious, but based on the constitutional law of the United States, the Nevada ruling protecting casino's by classifying them as private clubs really is wrong.

1. Not unwavering. I consider as unacceptable if a dealer so as much ever complains to a player about tipping - even if that player didn't tip. Dealers and workers too have to abide by some rules. It goes both ways.
2. "constitutional law of the United States?" It is no one's constitutional right to be in a casino to gamble if the behavior is not deemed appropriate - same as in a restaurant as mentioned.

Quote: gordonm888

Card counting is fundamentally different than any form of cheating. The only activities involved in card counting are
- observing
- remembering
- thinking
- changing bet size
- changing game decisions (split, double, stand, hit)

These are pretty much the same as in Poker (all types), Bridge, Pinochle, Spades, Hearts, Gin, Rummy and most other card games involving some degree of complexity.

As mentioned earlier, different games have different rules and expectations. You are supposed to track and use discards in Bridge, and are an improper or incompetent player if you don't do so. I play Bridge. What is stressed here is that you may not always utilize discard tracking to use a methodology in conjunction with bet sizing to run down a live Blackjack game in a casino. This is unmistakably clear in casino practice, it doesn't matter if you personally disagree with it or if you feel that this is wrong, and that this is fully legal for them to do this. This is exactly what happens, and is a risk to AP players.

Quote: gordon888

The last two (changing bet size and game decisions) are explicitly given to players as their rights in the game by the casino.

No. This is not true.
1. The table betting limits are set by the casino, - and not at all by the player. True or not? They can change the table limits at will by doing so much as changing a sign. True or not? And this is exactly what they are doing when they flat bet you, also. True or not? So, no, the player's bet size is essentially approved by the casino and not explicitly a "right of the player," unless of course a player can: a) tell the casino what the table limits are, and b) how much he may or may not bet when the casino says otherwise. This doesn't seem to be the case.
2. They often reject players' bet sizing actions when they detected it to be in parallel the with shoe's count, in order to run down a shoe.

Quote: gordon888

The casinos never state that "players are not permitted to increase their bet size when a disproportionate number of small cards have been played."

As mentioned, it is stated in casino internal documentation, and where protocols are followed from it, as used by surveillance crews, pit bosses, and floor supervisors, and they act on it in the real world.

Quote: gordon888

Incredibly, what the casinos object to are the first three - observing the cards, remembering what cards have been played and thinking about the implications of what has been played.

They don't care if you notice it or even what you think about. If you act on it by changing you bet size in parallel with the count in order to run down a game, they may respond to these actions, (in which case is no longer just the thinking about it). If you act on the count, they may act for reasons of game protection. And we have all seen this happen.

Quote: gordon888

These three activities all occur within a players head, yet the casinos seek to police these activities.

No. You can think and calculate the count all you want without that being policed. It's when you act on it by the actions of changing your bet size to closely follow the count that it's now real action to obtain real money, - and so is no longer just thinking about doing it.

Answer this: If it were just thinking, then how could surveillance "see" what you are just thinking? That would be impossible if it were just thinking, right? Obviously, there must be some real-world acting on it that was visible, right?

Quote: gordon888

The brain is the last frontier of human freedom - people can observe and think and remember all sorts of things and no matter how objectionable our thoughts are, we are free to think.

Casinos don't care about what you may be thinking, really they don't.
They care if you run down a table, which is taking real action to get some more real money, which they can see up in the surveillance room. This is different.

Quote: gordon888

Yet casinos routinely bar players because the players have counted cards in their minds and then taken actions that are otherwise permitted by the casino's disclosed rules. This is the heart and soul of what most of the people on this forum object to.

You can count cards all you want in your mind. That's fine. Think to your heart's content. It's when your hands push out real casino checks in statistical synchronicity with the real count that they may see and they may now think that you have gone beyond thinking and are actually utilizing in table action a real AP methodology. Makes sense to me. I am sure this makes no sense to you as to it being actions, but I assure you, these are actions which are clearly visible to the camera. And I can see their point on this about them seeing something. This is a bit more than just thinking about doing it. The money is real, here, eh?

Quote: gordon888

Paigowdan, you persistently (and passionately) make the point that casinos have a valid business interest in safeguarding their games against financial losses.

Uh, yeah, I think they may have some business interests in occasionally trying to stem loses from AP and Team play when it happens.....

Quote: gordon888

But casinos control all the rules, terms and conditions of the game of BJ -so why do they "criminalize" mental activities and make "card counting" the hill on which they choose to die?

This isn't a criminal issue, and they are not criminalizing thinking, it is business, and they are watching the action of hands, chips, and money going out. You cannot claim, "Oh - just thinking here..."

Quote: gordon888

Why don't they change the rules, conditions or terms of the game rather than object to the mental activities that are the birthright and hope of humanity: Observing, Remembering and Thinking?

Casinos have no problem with people Observing, Remembering and Thinking.
They do, however, sometimes have problems with people and their Hands, Chips, and Money, and actions pertaining to that. That's different. Really.

Paigowdan - I have stated that the casinos have no posted rules or announced (i.e. disclosed) rules against changing bet sizes when a disproportionate number of small cards have come out. You claim that most casinos do indeed have such a rule in their internal rules for game security. Would you please post the internal security rules of a casino so that we can observe this? Or can you direct us to a website that provides us with a notice of these rules? Or to a placard or sign on a BJ table that states this rule? If you cannot, then isn't your claim that such rules exist no more than "a rumor of a rule?"

These basic precepts underlie all laws and rules:

Rule#1 about rules is that they must be communicated to the people they affect. People have no responsibility to abide by rules that are deliberately not communicated to them.

Rule#2 about rules is that they must be clear to be enforceable. If you state that it is against the rules for a player to change bet sizes in synchronicity with the flow of cards then you need to define the terms precisely enough such that a reasonable person knows when they have crossed the line.

Establishing your own private rules and not announcing or disclosing them to the people they affect is an action that is akin to masturbating into a Kleenex - you haven't impregnated, affected or altered the world around you in any way, so don't pretend to be surprised if other people carry on with life as if you didn't do anything at all.

You continue to pound upon the principle that casinos can do whatever they what to protect their financial interests. Well, I did not contest the legal rights of casinos to ban a card counter. So stop answering every point I make by pounding on the casino's legal rights for a moment.

I am saying that each person who enters the casino can be considered to be a "personal business" (under the rules of the IRS for example.) And that every person has a valid business right to do whatever they can to limit their financial losses while in the casino -excluding those activities explicitly prohibited by law, such as using electronic devices, colluding with employees, etc. The clients of a casino are obliged to their stajkeholders (family, friends and to themselves) to make sure that they win as much money as possible. Tied up in that is risk-reward calculations. There is nothing immoral or unethical in choosing to break some unposted, unannounced rule -really, just a rumor of a rule - about synchronizing bet size choices with the flow of cards at a table - especially if people are willing to bear the consequences, i.e., being asked to leave. Its just a business decision. Get over it.
****************************************************
I think it is unethical or immoral for casinos to persecute people for "observing, remembering and thinking" and then acting on those mental processes - but I agree it is currently legal under their status as a private club (so DON'T keep repeating that as a defense for everything.)

Let me say this again: every person has a valid business right to do whatever they can, within restraints of common law, to limit their financial losses while in the casino. They have a valid business right to choose to count cards and to try to hide it from the casino. And casinos have a valid business right to throw them out if they catch them. Clients of a casino have not entered into any contract that obligates them to help the casino meet their financial goals and ethically, most people have no problem with breaking rules that are no more than rumors.

And finally, as I said earlier, it is both the birthright and the hope of humanity to "observe, remember, think" and to take action based on those mental processes. Your assertion that the current phase of casino blackjack is almost unique among all human endeavors by restricting its participants from taking actions based upon "observing, remembering and thinking" may be correct. But the current phase that blackjack is in will never stand the test of time. Inevitably, the casinos you so passionately defend will be overtaken by the irresistable basics of human nature and will change the terms and conditions of the current BJ game. And historians of the gaming industry will look back on this era when casinos sought to limit card counting by passing unannouced, in-house rules about synchronicity of card play with the flow of cards -and they will laugh. As we are laughing now.

And no, paigowdan, we are not laughing at you. We laugh at your little gods.

I actually appreciate Paigowdan's position that the casino wants and needs to protect is revenues.
In that it strives to make every single bet made be in the casino's favour with the House Edge.
It has 2 options to do that:
1.Make every single bet for every single game be in the casino's favour under all circumstances. For example use of CSM machines to stop counting.
2. Ban APs when it discovers them. ie Counters etc.

Most (probably all) Counters prefer that the casino follows Option 2 and play the cat and mouse game.
In most countries in Western Europe the BJ game is all CSM. I think this was the result of not been able to ban counters. I think there were legal cases in a few countries (Spain, Greece and others) that counters took 15-20 years ago and won and the result was the CSM.
And in the US there is the New Jersey position that cannot bar counters (and I assume any other AP player)

There are though benefits when casinos cannot legally ban AP players. There are other forms of AP that a dedicate AP player can exploit. And when the casino discovers the AP play the best it can do is to change the rules or procedures to protect the game. To me it looks similar to aggresive tax planning (I am an accountant) where the taxplayer tries to legally exploit tax loopholes and the IRS tries to close them when it discovers them. And the game goes on with new loopholes discovered and new rules to close them.


As for Counting being aginst the House rules, this is NOT the case.
For the simple reason that there is no way to define Counting in such a way that can identify when Counting is done.
Counting is a mental process and obviously cannot be against any rule (law, regulation etc from the governement or any other body).
Banning the raisiing of bet when the count is positive is possible, but that will include all people despite of the mental process the use (logic, numeracy, memory, feeling lucky, hunch, false logic or otherwise).
I challenge Paigowdan to define to me what exactly is not allowed and is against house rules (ie define in exact words what is this counting that is not allowed)
For example the house rule is: It is not allowed to raise your bet when the count is positive but the house rule should be applied to everyone including the person that is not aware that the count is positive.

The actual House rule is that the casino does not want as customer any player than in the casino's opinion (based on whatever methodology it uses), it deems that person not to contribute to the casino's revenue for whatever reason. And actually we cannot call it a rule. Rule implies rule to be followed by a patron and he must be aware of the exact rule to follow it. I think we better call it Casino Policy (not rule). And this is the policy for every single casino in the world whether it can ban an AP or not.

Quote: gordonm888

Paigowdan - I have stated that the casinos have no posted rules or announced (i.e. disclosed) rules against changing bet sizes when a disproportionate number of small cards have come out.

It's actually called the running count.

Quote: gordon888

You state that most casinos do indeed have such a rule in their internal rules for game security.

Of course they do. Are you kidding? Every major business or corporation has operating procedures and internal controls.

Quote: gordon888

Would you please post the internal security rules of a casino so that we can observe this?

Are you kidding? No, I or anyone else wouldn't do that any more than they'd give out the details of any other operational information. A lot of corporate information is on a need to know basis, and you shouldn't expect an operator's game protection information to be available to your AP team on demand, now would you? (Would KFC give out their top-secret chicken recipe? No. That kind of thing, you see.) All you have to do is know that there are indeed established game protection protocols and procedures used by casinos, and if there's any issue, you'd be notified with an explanation. I mean, would an AP team give the details and the identities of their operations, to let's say, CZR or MGM resorts? That's about how reasonable that request is.

Quote: gordon888

Or can you direct us to a website that provides us with a notice of these rules?

Try googling it, see what you get.

Quote: gordon888

Or to a placard or sign on a BJ table that states this rule?

Casinos don't use these signs. Most of their table placards show the table limits and the side bet pay tables. (They certainly won't have signs that say "If the Shift Manager thinks your a ****....you're 86-ed..." very off-putting...) They simply have these guys in suits that walk around and they explain various things to various players, if it is needed, on a need to know kind of basis.... (Now, I will say you don't get that kind of personalized service with online casinos.)

Quote: gordon888

and that players are expecetd to abide by the internal unannounced rule.

No, they have guys in suits to explain things to abide by. Not that they are really necessary, because if you know about cover plays, uncarded play and the like, you probably already know about these things.

Quote: Paigowdan

Quote: kewlj

Quote: Paigowdan

Casinos are. They may consider running down a deck unreasonable behavior.

I can't tell if you are being sarcastic or serious.

I was serious. You stated that restaurants may bar customers if their behavior is unreasonable. What if a casino finds a player's game play behavior unreasonable?

Casino: Here's the rules for everyone!
PB: Hey, that guy's following the rules!
Casino: ...Well that's just unreasonable!!! BAR HIM!

Quote: AceTwo

As for Counting being aginst the House rules, this is NOT the case.
For the simple reason that there is no way to define Counting in such a way that can identify when Counting is done.

If this were true, it also wouldn't be teachable or learnable. It is quite definable, with many specific variations that are highly detailed and defined (hi-low, knock-out, etc.)

Quote: Acetwo

Counting is a mental process and obviously cannot be against any rule (law, regulation etc from the governement or any other body).

Counting is a both a mental and physical process with physical actions involving hands, chips, real money, signals, other visible actions, and visible by surveillance and floor supervisors, etc. The excuse that it is only a mental process would obtain only mental chips or mental money at the mental cashier. Real actions manifested in an attempt to net real money from a real casino may be real discernable, and may result in a real back off.

Quote: Acetwo

I challenge Paigowdan to define to me what exactly is not allowed and is against house rules (ie define in exact words what is this counting that is not allowed)
For example the house rule is: It is not allowed to raise your bet when the count is positive but the house rule should be applied to everyone including the person that is not aware that the count is positive.

How about when a floor supervisor who knows counting checks with surveillance and it is verified to a statistical quantity and to the casino's satisfaction. They then have a suit chat with you. You challenge the guys who flat bet you or back you off.

Paigowdan -

Please read the rest of post - I accidently hit the wrong button on the keyboard and posted the first third of the post while writing it. You have responded to an incomplete post.

BTW, I don't feel any moral obligation to abide by rules that have not been communicated and explained to me. Your assertion that "all I need to know is. . . . yakkety yak" is arrogant and empty. You have no idea who I am or what I need to know.

Quote: Paigowdan

How about when a floor supervisor who knows counting checks with surveillance and it is verified to a statistical quantity and to the casino's satisfaction.

No, no. That is not good enough.
When the 'Expert' says so is not an acceptable way to define a 'term'.
Try defing a term in any discipline with the 'when the expert says so' approach and see what would people will say in such a case.

Counting just cannot be defined outside of mental process.
It is the act that you need to define and not the mental process to make it against a rule.

The point Paigowdan is that you say that there are written Internal Controls that instruct casino personnel to ban counters.
This is not a rule.
This is just casino policy.
Two completely different things.

Like it is casino policy to target marketing to affluent people.
Like all other policies that a casino or other businesses have.

Quote: gordonm888

Paigowdan -

Please read the rest of post - I accidently hit the wrong button on the keyboard and posted the first third of the post while writing it. You have responded to an incomplete post.

No problem, buddy.

Quote: gordon888

BTW, I don't feel any moral obligation to abide by rules that have not been communicated and explained to me. Your assertion that "all I need to know is. . . . yakkety yak" is arrogant and empty. You have no idea who I am or what I need to know.

That's okay, you do what you want. But you need to know what you're getting into. You may need to feel some sort of obligation to something with more solidity when you don't set the rules of the game. And you don't unless you work for the other side. Some of the greats switched sides. The cat & mouse game may involve mitochondria and viri one day soon, Lysol all over the place, trying to defend it to the end of the world like it is a goal.

What I am saying more seriously, is that you don't take this lightly at all. You have a choice of real jobs and careers, and treating this as mental fun & games may result in manifest problems after a manifest tap on de shoulder and a clear headshot. Things are only getting tougher. If you're serious, then PM an old pro like Kewlj and get the real scoop, because it is no joke, if you get burnt out by a sharp eye in the joint, or if operators clamp down with a "ploppies only" game.

Kewlj will make his nut before it all comes to an eventual end. Latecomers may get a closed door.

Personally, it is bad enough risking your career in the legit side of the industry with some casino people, forget about a pit boss or surveillance director with a h*rd-*n for AP players and teams. (And I don't blame them, and I'm a pussycat.)

This isn't personal, this is business, and it's a rough business on all sides.

Quote: AceTwo

No, no. That is not good enough.
When the 'Expert' says so is not an acceptable way to define a 'term'.
Try defing a term in any discipline with the 'when the expert says so' approach and see what would people will say in such a case.

Counting just cannot be defined outside of mental process.

Sure it can, the floor and the sky see your real chips, and your real hands taking real money in a real cashier produced from real actions based on real math to take real money.....they can make a real issue.....

Quote: Acetwo

It is the act that you need to define and not the mental process to make it against a rule.

The act has been defined to the point of real flat-betting and real back offs

Quote: Acetwo

The point Paigowdan is that you say that there are written Internal Controls that instruct casino personnel to ban counters.
This is not a rule.
This is just casino policy.
Two completely different things.

Like it is casino policy to target marketing to affluent people.
Like all other policies that a casino or other businesses have.

This is splitting hairs, a pit boss can say "it's a policy rule then, and your done for the night...," or the games may change to NJ crap levels, and you're done on any day of the week. #$%#$~! How am I supposed to make MONEY?

Well, you're supposed to get an outside career, come in at night, and be a civilian, and not a pro, in the end. Get a big hand or a streak by gambling, you're good. It is not supposed to be a reliable source of income for pros. The pros work the tables and floor.

This is the direction it is all heading, skimming on this business may fade away....

Quote: gordonm888

BTW, I don't feel any moral obligation to abide by rules that have not been communicated and explained to me.

Imagine if speed limits weren't posted
anywhere, on the road or anyplace
people could read them. They were
just enforced rumors that people had
to abide by or get ticketed.

This is the world Dan wants us to think
we live in. The folly of it reminds me
of Catch 22. 'A dilemma from which there
is no escape because of mutually conflicting
or dependent conditions.'

That's what happens when you enter a
casino, it's a bizarre Catch 22 world of
secret rules and conditions.

Look, Bob,

I'm just saying, like it or not, the direction of brick and mortar casinos is to slowly tighten it up where the only pros work for the house, like all other entertainment establishments. And in a technology future of free time, and with people being social animals, brick and mortar casino will stay around a while. People will trust people, especially their own city's people, instead of a server in Kazakhstan running programs.

I don't care if you like this or not, or the language or not, but being a professional casino hanger-on, wanna-be, parasite or leech, it's not a fun career unless you made just made your nut, - and kewlj may be among the last of the Mohicans. Chief Kewlj. Had beat the system if for real. He should write a book the day after his retirement party.

The future may be ugly or not depending on your hat color. Doesn't matter. Arguments of right and wrong don't matter. It's getting much harder to be a "gentleman of leisure" working off of a joint while not on the official payroll. Technology is a b*tch, lose lips and leakage and turncoats et al.

Doesn't matter how you feel about the good old days.

Quote: Paigowdan

No problem, buddy.


That's okay, you do what you want. But you need to know what you're getting into. You may need to feel some sort of obligation to something with more solidity when you don't set the rules of the game. And you don't unless you work for the other side. Some of the greats switched sides. The cat & mouse game may involve mitochondria and viri one day soon, trying to defend it to the end of the world like it is a goal.

What I am saying more seriously, is that you don't take this lightly at all. You have a choice of real jobs and careers, and treating this as mental fun & games may result in manifest problems after a manifest tap on de shoulder and a clear headshot. Things are only getting tougher. If you're serious, then PM an old pro like Kewlj and get the real scoop, because it is no joke, if you get burnt out by a sharp eye in the joint, or if operators clamp down with a "ploppies only" game.

Personally, it is bad enough risking your career in the legit side of the industry with some casino people, forget about a pit boss or surveillance director with a h*rd-*n for AP players and teams. (And I don't blame them, and I'm a pussycat.)

This isn't personal, this is business, and it's a rough business on all sides.

It is an honor to take such a lesson from Professor Dan.

1. I am a person who has been a card counter since the late 1970s, when BJ was all one deck or two-deck. Several times in my career, I have been told by casino staff to "play any game in the house other than blackjack" but your so-called "men in suits" have never articulated a rule against card counting to me.
2. I don't count BJ anymore because I don't play it anymore. In my opinion, the BJ game dried up a long time ago with the introduction of 6-deck shoes and the constant heat from dealers and the pit. There are easier ways for smart people to make money than grinding away at the current form of BJ.
3. I turned to Texas Hold'em in the mid-nineties, but the Harrington on Hold'em books and the televising of games have made that game very hard to beat. Texas Hold'em has become to other poker games what BJ is to other table games - the wildly popular game that has become less and less profitable with time.
4. So, currently I play something else, when I do play in casinos.
5. I am not and never have been a full-time AP trying to make a living off of the casinos. I applied my mental capabilities to jobs
in real life and I am now fortunate to have retired young and to have financial security. When I do play at casinos, my goal is to limit my losses to zero, or to make a little money.
6. I also am not intimidated by your "men with suits" because I am a "man with lawyers" - and I have the financial wherewithal to use them if necessary. I also worked for the latter part of my career for the federal government in national security and I can assure you that there are forces in this country much bigger and stronger that the casino industry. And organizations where men wear more expensive suits.
7. I had been arguing on a fairly elevated intellectual level with you - but your latest post smugly refers to "headshots" and "a sharp eye to the joint" and people getting rough on both sides. This makes my point about how this industry was spawned by organized crime and has not completely risen above its origins. If you want to talk like a thug and warn me about the prospect of violence, that's fine. Just don't expect me and other people around you to treat you like a prince among men.

Quote: Paigowdan

I'm just saying, like it or not, the direction of brick and mortar casinos is to slowly tighten it up where the only pros work for the house

In the old days, servants stole from
their employers. I'm talking turn of
the century, when a rich person
needed a staff of people to do
everything for them. They took
canned food, toiletries, small things
to make their lives easier. It was
tolerated by most because it was
the only way to get good help.

Casinos don't have that attitude.
They want the best of it at all
times. They'll spend $100 to stop
$50 being taken by an AP. They don't
understand how the real world works,
they want to scam without themselves
being scammed. A crook hates more
than anything being scammed themselves.

Quote: Paigowdan

Counting is a both a mental and physical process with physical actions involving hands, chips, real money, signals, other visible actions, and visible by surveillance and floor supervisors, etc. The excuse that it is only a mental process would obtain only mental chips or mental money at the mental cashier. Real actions manifested in an attempt to net real money from a real casino may be real discernable, and may result in a real back off.

Dan,

You seem to be using the term "card counting" to mean many separate aspects that can be used in blackjack play.

In the world I live in, card counting vary narrowly and specifically means tracking what cards have been played in some manner - be it in blackjack, euchre, hearts, or some other game. By making observations about what cards have been played, we can make inferences about what cards may yet be played.

Making those physical actions is a process we generally call "playing cards*".

I understand (and agree) that the observation and mental analysis serves little purpose if it is not coupled with some change in the manner of play one engages in, including adjusting wager sizes from round to round and altering the playing strategy in use... but placing bets and making plays isn't card counting, it's playing cards.

If the house wants to back someone off, I understand, and I even accept it (to a point). I would ask that if you are backing me off, it's honest and straightforward - something along the lines of "Your play at this game is too good for us; we decline to accept any more of your play at this game." It's vague enough, it can be used with most any situation where the player win significantly exceeds expectation. No need to be rude and permanently evict me from the property; let me cash my cheques and maybe get a cheeseburger, because I've got a bit of a drive ahead of me.

Winning players do serve a purpose - I consider us to be either part of the entertainment or part of the advertising. I completely understand that we're not a line item on the budget, however, so our wins are an unplanned incidental expense.



*That's a verb. It's easy to get it confused; if one is playing cards (v), one is often using playing cards (n).

Quote: gordonm888

Quote: Paigowdan

No problem, buddy.


That's okay, you do what you want. But you need to know what you're getting into. You may need to feel some sort of obligation to something with more solidity when you don't set the rules of the game. And you don't unless you work for the other side. Some of the greats switched sides. The cat & mouse game may involve mitochondria and viri one day soon, trying to defend it to the end of the world like it is a goal.

What I am saying more seriously, is that you don't take this lightly at all. You have a choice of real jobs and careers, and treating this as mental fun & games may result in manifest problems after a manifest tap on de shoulder and a clear headshot. Things are only getting tougher. If you're serious, then PM an old pro like Kewlj and get the real scoop, because it is no joke, if you get burnt out by a sharp eye in the joint, or if operators clamp down with a "ploppies only" game.

Personally, it is bad enough risking your career in the legit side of the industry with some casino people, forget about a pit boss or surveillance director with a h*rd-*n for AP players and teams. (And I don't blame them, and I'm a pussycat.)

This isn't personal, this is business, and it's a rough business on all sides.

It is an honor to take such a lesson from Professor Dan.

I take the position that I'm always patient and descriptive with people in explaining simple but potentially rough things in a simple fashion, and I am not being sarcastic here; it is simple, it can get nasty, and it is to be gotten as simple as possibly. It is a rough business.

Quote: Gordon

1. I am a person who has been a card counter since the late 1970s, when BJ was all one deck or two-deck. Several times in my career, I have been told by casino staff to "play any game in the house other than blackjack" but your so-called "men in suits" have never articulated a rule against card counting to me.

Well, perhaps they were indeed clear when they said "You know, sir, you need to play ANOTHER game - like Craps or Roulette," and that was a casino rule or protocol explained to you in very plain and clear English. I mean, that is quite clear indeed. And They may have been very Rude, but so what, they were indeed to you. Being a card counter is for the rhinoceros-skinned, and suits can be blunt, even nasty! You said you've played since they late 70's (which is like 45 years or so now), so perhaps they just assumed you may have known what they had meant. This is actually very similar to when a lady friend says something to the effect of: "You know, Jimmy, perhaps we can be 'just friends' kind of thing over here, I cherish your friendship so much...."; or "You know, you are SUCH a great friend to me, and I cherish that being just a friendship so much, and I want you to know how much that means..." - giving you a brush-off. And it is clear: 1) you ain't scoring, and 2) in the case of the pit boss talking, you go and play craps or you leave. Very Plain English here, though perhaps painful to accept. You brush off blow-offs like nothing....

Quote: Gordon

2. I don't count BJ anymore because I don't play it anymore. In my opinion, the BJ game dried up a long time ago with the introduction of 6-deck shoes and the constant heat from dealers and the pit.

Neither do I play Blackjack; I don't miss it. I think it is a boring game that causes game protections problem and player-to-player altercations at times. In fact, I'm convinced.

Quote: Gordon

There are easier ways for smart people to make money than grinding away at the current form of BJ.

Yes, that is true. Not meaning to be snide, I am quite serious about it being a poor job choice for most, and real independent employment may be best.

Quote: Gordon

3. I turned to Texas Hold'em in the mid-nineties, but the Harrington on Hold'em books and the televising of games have made that game very hard to beat. Texas Hold'em has become to other poker games what BJ is to other table games - the wildly popular game that has become less and less profitable with time.

Fish trying to beat up on other fish.

Quote: Gordon

4. So, currently I play something else, when I do play in casinos.
5. I am not and never have been a full-time AP trying to make a living off of the casinos. I applied my mental capabilities to jobs
in real life and I am now fortunate to have retired young and to have financial security. When I do play at casinos, my goal is to limit my losses to zero, or to make a little money.

THAT is extremely unrealistic!!!! Are you serious! You can easily lose your pocket cash PLUS many more trips to the ATM!!!!! Cable Television and book reading is YOUR break-even activity. It is mine. At the house, big wins and loses happen, and you can sweat not a thing.Gambling variance swings hugely every which way, and you can't sweat that ride, even if an AP! I go to lose a small fortune and don't sweat it at all, and then may win $3,000 on a $10 High Card Flush or Pai Gow Poker side bet on another day, or roll for an hour once every eon. Gambling money is the cash you never miss or sweat if lost, even IF a counter. You will NEVER SWEAT a risk of ruin if you don't enter a joint with an amount that can ruin you if it is lost. And if you win, great....

6. I also am not intimidated by your "men with suits" because I am a "man with lawyers" - and I have the financial wherewithal to use them if necessary.

Great. But they or a sharp guy in surveillance can end the party.

Quote: Gordon

I also worked for the latter part of my career for the federal government in national security and I can assure you that there are forces in this country much bigger and stronger that the casino industry. And organizations where men wear more expensive suits.

I know.

Quote: Gordon

7. I had been arguing on a fairly elevated intellectual level with you - but your latest post smugly refers to "headshots" and "a sharp eye to the joint" and people getting rough on both sides. This makes my point about how this industry was spawned by organized crime and has not completely risen above its origins.

No, that's paranoid. Regular lawyers and businessmen defend their income as much as anyone else, - including the mob.

Quote: Gordon

If you want to talk like a thug and warn me about the prospect of violence, that's fine.

What??!
I never did, I'm telling you that THEY CAN end your AP career, IF a card counter caught, which, when it hits the pocketbook or wallet will feel and be - in a sense - a very violent-feeling and life disrupting and painful thing. Casinos take money seriously and responses at times. And it will feel EXTREMELY violent and angering if flat-betted or 86-ed.

Quote: gordon

Just don't expect me and other people around you to treat you like a prince among men.

I don't expect you too. I'm not a prince. I am a game designer who doesn't like shots taken at casino games meant for recreational play, and I am also tough of game designers who skimp or overlook this area.

Quote: Paigowdan

I am a game designer who doesn't like shots taken at casino games meant for recreational play.

Dan, you're the buffet owner who
wrings his hands when a family
of fat people comes in. You go to
their table and constantly remind
them that the unwritten rule in
your buffet is, gluttony is a sin,
and just because you can eat as
much as you want, doesn't mean
you have to.

Buffets and casinos don't understand
the real world. If you can be played,
you will be played. It's human nature.

Quote: EvenBob

Dan, you're the buffet owner who
wrings his hands when a family
of fat people comes in. You go to
their table and constantly remind
them that the unwritten rule in
your buffet is, gluttony is a sin,
and just because you can eat as
much as you want, doesn't mean
you have to.

Buffets and casinos don't understand
the real world. If you can be played,
you will be played. It's human nature.

No Bob,
that is you.

Send them all in
to eat or play.
The house
has extra rice,

The house
has extra cash.
See who gets
worn out
in the end.

AP
is a rougher gig
for the AP
than for
the joint.

Just saying
it is not a joke.

;
)

Edit: Bob, let me send you a real laptop with WiFi, with a new hard disk. PM me so you don't have to use that 40-character keyboard kind of thing.

Quote: Paigowdan

AP
is a rougher gig
for the AP
than for
the joint.

Lol, you've been selling that canard
since I joined here 5 years ago.
Yeah, that's just how casinos act,
like they don't care. Right.

Bob, PM me.
Let me send you a freaking laptop. It'll just to go some junior high school in Clark County otherwise. Station Casinos will get credit for it anyhow.

What
the hell
are you
typing on.


I wanna see you in the 20th century.

Quote: Paigowdan

Bob, PM me.
Let me send you a freaking laptop.

Dan, I have 17,000 posts in
this style and you just noticed?
Really?

Quote: EvenBob

Dan, I have 17,000 posts in
this style and you just noticed?
Really?

I know already. And please don't consider it all any lesser of a contribution if you were to be less vertical about things.

Anyone read this and think of 1984's thoughtcrime? I get the idea that counters are unwelcome since they are costs rather than another source of profit, but the efforts taken to eliminate them are often silly. This is why I like Zender's model; everyone wins and I'm guessing both sides were happier too. Casinos offer decent games which patrons appreciate and are likely to lose money to since they feel they have a chance. Counters benefit in that they are accepted at low to mid levels of play.

I think one of the biggest irritants is that counters are thought of as cheats. I appreciate that you distinguished between the two and acknowledged that there is done degree of difficulty to it Dan. Ultimately, I believe you made some good points, but there is some hypocrisy on the part of the casino and it is deceptive. There is likely hypocrisy on the other side too, but accepting it is important.

I think I can make the concession that casinos aren't all evil organizations trying to bleed everyone dry, but to say that they are places where winners are gladly accepted and that it is ok to have discreet rules that selectively punish people is wrong.

Quote: Paigowdan

Well, perhaps they were indeed clear when they said "You know, sir, you need to play ANOTHER game - like Craps or Roulette," and that was a casino rule or protocol explained to you in very plain and clear English. I mean, that is quite clear indeed. And They may have been very Rude, but so what, they were indeed to you. Being a card counter is for the rhinoceros-skinned, and suits can be blunt, even nasty! You said you've played since they late 70's (which is like 45 years or so now), so perhaps they just assumed you may have known what they had meant.

You do a poor job of listening (or reading.) The casino employees almost always said to me -politely but firmly - that I was "welcome to play any game in the house other than blackjack. " They never felt compelled to explain why, but they followed me around the casino until I had the good grace to leave. Please don't fantasize and fabricate what people must have said to me based upon your experiences.

I then went on to say that I am not a full-time AP and when I do visit a casino my goal is to break even or make a little money. Your reply was:

Quote: Paigowdan

THAT is extremely unrealistic!!!! Are you serious! You can easily lose your pocket cash PLUS many more trips to the ATM!!!!! Cable Television and book reading is YOUR break-even activity. It is mine. At the house, big wins and loses happen, and you can sweat not a thing.Gambling variance swings hugely every which way, and you can't sweat that ride, even if an AP! I go to lose a small fortune and don't sweat it at all, and then may win $3,000 on a $10 High Card Flush or Pai Gow Poker side bet on another day, or roll for an hour once every eon. Gambling money is the cash you never miss or sweat if lost, even IF a counter. You will NEVER SWEAT a risk of ruin if you don't enter a joint with an amount that can ruin you if it is lost. And if you win, great....

The reason i recounted my history was to communicate to you that I am an experienced player who takes a big-picture view of the game, and that I certainly don't need Gambling 101 lessons from you. I understand variance and risk of ruin. I told you truthfully that, when I occasionally play at a casino, my goal is to break-even or come out slightly positive. Again, I sought to inform you that I am not a full-time AP player and I do not use my AP skills in a way that is likely to get me mugged by your thug-brothers in the casinos. And, I used the word "goal" which you somehow interpreted as "expectation." Of course my goal is to break even or win money, just like a million other players. But I freely admit that when I do play, I look for every conceivable edge that I can get and I use one or two AP angles that I don't discuss on the forums, and I don't play slots or sucker games - and sometimes I win and sometimes I lose but, on average, Las Vegas hasn't being built and operated on my money (unless its the money I pay for hotel rooms.)

And BTW, I started card counting in 1979 -which is 36 years ago, not 45 years ago. With arithmetic like that, its no wonder you expect to lose a small fortune every time you enter a casino. :)

I'm done -you don't need to respond to me because I've already wasted too much time on this thread! I cannot imagine what emotion inside of you is driving you to write the dozens and dozens of responses that you've already posted. You're clearly not convincing anyone and you're not budging on your views either, so go do something else. Get a life.

Quote: Minty

Anyone read this and think of 1984's thoughtcrime? I get the idea that counters are unwelcome since they are costs rather than another source of profit, but the efforts taken to eliminate them are often silly. This is why I like Zender's model; everyone wins and I'm guessing both sides were happier too. Casinos offer decent games which patrons appreciate and are likely to lose money to since they feel they have a chance. Counters benefit in that they are accepted at low to mid levels of play.

I think one of the biggest irritants is that counters are thought of as cheats.
I will admit and can say that I see it being an irritant, and causing offense and hurt feelings.

Quote: Minty

I appreciate that you distinguished between the two and acknowledged that there is done degree of difficulty to it Dan. Ultimately, I believe you made some good points, but there is some hypocrisy on the part of the casino and it is deceptive.

The use of cover plays, disguises, or using AP There is likely hypocrisy on the other side too, but accepting it is important.

All this is arguable...

1. In terms of reasonable operations and game protection, Blackjack is a Mess on ALL Sides.....

2. There is NO "1984" - like ThoughCrime is involved here, Minty. AP players know counting know it isn't approved in the places where it is not, and so they really can't make claims about "My constitutional rights to play blackjack," etc. when told by the pit boss a no-no went down when a tap on the shoulder occurs about it. Play craps or call a lawyer or play at another place.

Argue your case, it may not hold up in the pit and an end of play occurs for the player. No police, no Bob Nersessian, but you may call them both if you feel you have a legitimate case. Bring it to the court if you want. If the Surveillance crew saw a player's HAND maneuvering CASINO CHECKS ("real money") into a betting spot in parallel with the shoe's count, and it is determined and argued to be in a statistically valid correlation to an established AP methodology ("hi-low," "knock-out", etc.), claims of innocence or "but I was just thinking...." may be met with "go play craps, or be flat betted, or leave, or go bowling" where no constitutional rights were infringed, and that's the end of it there.

3. Doesn't matter what AP players are thought of by anyone at all: a) Robin Hoods fight for Truth, Justice, and the American way against the evil Darth Vader Casinos; b) low-lives scamming card rooms for chump change and justifying it as righteous-dude action, or c) Misguided people in need of a real day time job. d) fodder for a high-hit discussion at WOV, and e) What have you.

4. There are NO hurt feelings or irritants for real AP players or for real card counters, otherwise you may be in the wrong business, as a back offs are just a bump-in-the-road business event without it being a "constitutional rights" argument, in the pit or anywhere. If being told that "Your play on blackjack is just to wonderful for us, so perhaps you should play craps or go to the buffet" is a violation of your human rights, then get a day time job or call Bob Nersessian or contact gaming. This is just absurd. You'll see flat-betting often, and if you're not put into a surveillance watch list, you may or may not be okay.

But if you're a no non-sense AP player, there is no "this is hypocrisy." You can contact the Nevada Gaming control board with a complaint, or a lawyer with a complaint, and tell them about "Thoughtcrime from Orwell's' book 1984." See what they tell you.

If they let you play, then play.

So a guy walks into a diner. On the front door is a sign that say "No shoes, No shirt, No service". (we've all seen these signs). The guy, wearing shoes and a shirt sits down at the counter, where he is informed they can not serve him because he is wearing a green shirt and the don't serve patrons in green shirts. "Where is this rule he asks?" Only to be informed it is a secret, unposted, internal rule.

This is how asinine your argument is Dan. I mean really, you have lost any credibility you may of had by continuing to double down with this non-sense. I just feel bad for you. I am embarrassed FOR you. If the casino industry which you defend really shares your mentality it is no wonder they are hemorrhaging both revenue and customers over the last decade.

You keep spitting out game protection. In the case of card counters, there is almost no game protection needed. Card counters are absolutely no thread to the casino, except in the most extreme cases, the very few well financed, really high end players and teams. The business major geeks that now make the decisions (as opposed to when real casino people that know the business ran the show) have somehow become obsessed that card counters are a threat. Probably because they have been sold that crap from the new gaming protection industry that has sprung up in the last decade and needs to sell that myth to make money. So casinos now spend dollars to save pennies, as far as card counters go. And people like you are left to defend these actions and make the ridiculous argument that card counter's are a threat to casinos, when they are no more a thread than Betty White is to win the Boston Marathon. It really is insane.

Quote: kewlj

The business major geeks that now make the decisions (as opposed to when real casino people that know the business ran the show) have somehow become obsessed that card counters are a threat..

They see a leak in the barrel and
will stop at nothing to plug it. They
learn that in business school. Any
threat to the bottom line must be
dealt with. They know little about
the actual games, just ask them
questions like I do. I know pit
people who don't the difference
between hold and drop.

Quote: gordonm888

You do a poor job of listening (or reading.) The casino employees almost always said to me -politely but firmly - that I was "welcome to play any game in the house other than blackjack. " They never felt compelled to explain why, but they followed me around the casino until I had the good grace to leave. Please don't fantasize and fabricate what people must have said to me based upon your experiences.

Gordon, I wasn't fabricating anything. I WAS being very frank about how it really, really sounded. If you were backed off of a BJ game, and then the card room/casino workers tracked you onto other games, not good. Serious Players - gamblers and AP - do NOT play for small things at all. Any gambler plays for real stakes and is not shaken.

Quote: Gordon

I then went on to say that I am not a full-time AP and when I do visit a casino my goal is to break even or make a little money. Your reply was:

Yes I did indeed. In fact, my replay was "are you serious?" A serious gambler plays real money to win or lose real money, [and this includes serious AP players also, accepting a serious risk of ruin at times for serious gains].

yes, another minor thing here, and I'm sorry I noticed it or mentioned it, but if you're a serious AP player or a serious gambler with serious history, - even part time - you don't say or have an attitude of "Okay - I'll go to the casino or gambling hall to either break even or win a little bit. Yess!" You just don't. you say "It's time for action (thinking like a gambler or an AP player), and here it comes!.....look out. If I'm up 40 bucks, I'm outta here..." You simply don't say "Okay, I'm in four large ($4,000), and I'm up a little, $85 bucks or whatever, I'm outta here....Lock that in." Okay, my apologies, I didn't quite get that. Maybe it's just how I play, but I don't think serious gamblers or AP players go that way.

I was thinking, "I'm here to be up three large or I'm down three large (thousands...)....so here we go...." Three large up or down, I am in that action. And this ESPECIALLY applies to no joke AP players. Part time included.
We generally don't say or think here (ugg!) - on an AP thread "I'm here to break even, or up a little bit."

Quote: Paigowdan

THAT is extremely unrealistic!!!! Are you serious! You can easily lose your pocket cash PLUS many more trips to the ATM!!!!! Cable Television and book reading is YOUR break-even activity. It is mine. At the house, big wins and loses happen, and you can sweat not a thing.Gambling variance swings hugely every which way, and you can't sweat that ride, even if an AP! I go to lose a small fortune and don't sweat it at all, and then may win $3,000 on a $10 High Card Flush or Pai Gow Poker side bet on another day, or roll for an hour once every eon. Gambling money is the cash you never miss or sweat if lost, even IF a counter. You will NEVER SWEAT a risk of ruin if you don't enter a joint with an amount that can ruin you if it is lost. And if you win, great....

You play to gamble or to AP, and either activity is very serious and risky unless you play next to nothing to lose ...meaning....not an AP or a serious gambler.

AP play is NOT about trying to break even or making a little bit in a night unless heat. It's about working on a getting up a serious nut for the month or period every chance you get.

Quote: G

The reason i recounted my history was to communicate to you that I am an experienced player who takes a big-picture view of the game, and that I certainly don't need Gambling 101 lessons from you. I understand variance and risk of ruin. I told you truthfully that, when I occasionally play at a casino, my goal is to break-even or come out slightly positive.

Yeah, maybe not. But I wouldn't lock in a small win and call it a night (or a CD deposit) unless heat is upon thee.... Again, I wasn't really thinking "oh, look....an AP thread over here..." okay....not meaning to be too glib, I didn't know how to respond to that graciously, and I hadn't, really....things kinda threw me...,

Quote: Gordon

Again, I sought to inform you that I am not a full-time AP player and I do not use my AP skills in a way that is likely to get me mugged by your thug-brothers in the casinos.

I get that. Trust me, I'm a pussycat...I'd never stick you up.

Quote: Gordon

And, I used the word "goal" which you somehow interpreted as "expectation." Of course my goal is to break even or win money, just like a million other players.

okay, look...to be AP level, you're goal is to NOT be like a million other players....your goal is to be able to say "These silly suits didn't see me coming by the time I was OUT of Dodge...." THAT'S AP level....

Quote: Gordon

But I freely admit that when I do play, I look for every conceivable edge that I can get and I use one or two AP angles that I don't discuss on the forums, and I don't play slots or sucker games - and sometimes I win and sometimes I lose but, on average, Las Vegas hasn't being built and operated on my money (unless its the money I pay for hotel rooms.)

And BTW, I started card counting in 1979 -which is 36 years ago, not 45 years ago. With arithmetic like that, its no wonder you expect to lose a small fortune every time you enter a casino. :)

My error, I assumed 1970.

Quote: Gordon

I'm done -you don't need to respond to me because I've already wasted too much time on this thread! I cannot imagine what emotion inside of you is driving you to write the dozens and dozens of responses that you've already posted. You're clearly not convincing anyone and you're not budging on your views either, so go do something else. Get a life.

All good. Gordon, you really have been great. I operate on the basis that I am naïve. I have heard AP play to be a lot of trouble, and I want you to consider me a ploppie. If you consider me rough, then what on the casino floor?

Quote: kewlj

So a guy walks into a diner. On the front door is a sign that say "No shoes, No shirt, No service". (we've all seen these signs). The guy, wearing shoes and a shirt sits down at the counter, where he is informed they can not serve him because he is wearing a green shirt and the don't serve patrons in green shirts. "Where is this rule he asks?" Only to be informed it is a secret, unposted, internal rule.

Kewlj, People with shirts or no shirts cannot misrepresent themselves.


People who come in pretending to be ploppies and play kick-Butt AP play may indeed get caught.
And there IS NO secret rules on AP play, - and there is no playing innocent.

If you know AP Play, you know the house rules.
You know this, pit boss knows this, don't sweat it.

Play craps for a while, and be done.

Quote: Paigowdan

Quote: gordonm888

You do a poor job of listening (or reading.) The casino employees almost always said to me -politely but firmly - that I was "welcome to play any game in the house other than blackjack. " They never felt compelled to explain why, but they followed me around the casino until I had the good grace to leave. Please don't fantasize and fabricate what people must have said to me based upon your experiences.

Gordon, I wasn't fabricating anything. I WAS being very frank about how it really, really sounded. If you were backed off of a BJ game, and then the card room/casino workers tracked you onto other games, not good. Serious Players - gamblers and AP - do NOT play for small things at all.


Yes I did indeed. In fact, my replay was "are you serious?" A serious gambler plays real money to win or lose real money, [and this includes serious AP players also, accepting a serious risk of ruin at times for serious gains].

yes, another minor thing here, and I'm sorry I noticed it or mentioned it, but if you're a serious AP player or a serious gambler with serious history, you don't say or have an attitude of "Okay - I'll go to the casino or gambling hall to either break even or win a little bit. Yess!" You just don't. you say "It's time for action (thinking like a gambler or an AP player), and here it comes!.....look out. If I'm up 40 bucks, I'm outta here..." You simply don't say "Okay, I'm in four large ($4,000), and I'm up a little, $85 bucks or whatever, I'm outta here....Lock that in." Okay, my apologies, I didn't quite get that. Maybe it's just how I play, but I don't think serious gamblers or AP players go that way.

I was thinking, "I'm here to be up three large or I'm down three large (thousands...)....so here we go...." Three large up or down, I am in that action. And this ESPECIALLY applies to no joke AP players.
We generally don't say or think here (ugg!) - on an AP thread "I'm here to break even, or up a little bit."

Quote: Paigowdan

THAT is extremely unrealistic!!!! Are you serious! You can easily lose your pocket cash PLUS many more trips to the ATM!!!!! Cable Television and book reading is YOUR break-even activity. It is mine. At the house, big wins and loses happen, and you can sweat not a thing.Gambling variance swings hugely every which way, and you can't sweat that ride, even if an AP! I go to lose a small fortune and don't sweat it at all, and then may win $3,000 on a $10 High Card Flush or Pai Gow Poker side bet on another day, or roll for an hour once every eon. Gambling money is the cash you never miss or sweat if lost, even IF a counter. You will NEVER SWEAT a risk of ruin if you don't enter a joint with an amount that can ruin you if it is lost. And if you win, great....

You play to gamble or to AP, and either activity is very serious and risky unless you play next to nothing to lose ...meaning....not an AP or a serious gambler.


Yeah, maybe not. But I wouldn't lock in a small win and call it a night (or a CD deposit) unless heat is upon thee.... Again, I wasn't really thinking "oh, look....an AP thread over here..." okay....not meaning to be too glib, I didn't know how to respond to that graciously, and I hadn't, really....things kinda threw me...,


I get that. Trust me, I'm a pussycat...I'd never stick you up.


okay, look...to be AP level, you're goal is to NOT be like a million other players....your goal is to be able to say "These silly suits didn't see me coming by the time I was OUT of Dodge...." THAT'S AP level....


My error, I assumed 1970.



All good. Gordon, you really have been great. I operate on the basis that I am naïve. I have heard AP play to be a lot of trouble, and I want you to consider me a ploppie.

EDITED

Quote: kewlj

So a guy walks into a diner. On the front door is a sign that say "No shoes, No shirt, No service". (we've all seen these signs). The guy, wearing shoes and a shirt sits down at the counter, where he is informed they can not serve him because he is wearing a green shirt and the don't serve patrons in green shirts. "Where is this rule he asks?" Only to be informed it is a secret, unposted, internal rule.

This is how asinine your argument is Dan. I mean really, you have lost any credibility you may of had by continuing to double down with this non-sense. I just feel bad for you. I am embarrassed FOR you. If the casino industry which you defend really shares your mentality it is no wonder they are hemorrhaging both revenue and customers over the last decade.

You keep spitting out game protection. In the case of card counters, there is almost no game protection needed. Card counters are absolutely no thread to the casino, except in the most extreme cases, the very few well financed, really high end players and teams. The business major geeks that now make the decisions (as opposed to when real casino people that know the business ran the show) have somehow become obsessed that card counters are a threat. Probably because they have been sold that crap from the new gaming protection industry that has sprung up in the last decade and needs to sell that myth to make money. So casinos now spend dollars to save pennies, as far as card counters go. And people like you are left to defend these actions and make the ridiculous argument that card counter's are a threat to casinos, when they are no more a thread than Betty White is to win the Boston Marathon. It really is insane.

kewj, this is one time I disagree with you.
You are using some strong lingo here. And what is this you are saying about green shirt and Bette White.
Game protection, hum! Where did you get the idea that the casino operation is about this.
Casinos are out to maximise their profits. And CC are not good for their profits. CC are a nuisance to them but it give them critical mass in the casino.
Where I play with the CSM the casino are not thrill with me playing perfect BJ and flat betting as they make very little from me. But not breaking any of their rules they tolerate me even though I get tons of Comps out of them.
CC are not a threat to the casinos but the casino need to keep them under check and are a necessity to them . So I wont say "So casinos now spend dollars to save pennies spend for them".

Casinos will do things sometimes not knowing why that severely cut into their profits; they do these things often as countermeasures to counters. A few examples are no midshoe entry, cutting off more than one deck, stating players may only sit out one hand otherwise they can't play the table, early shuffles and slowing the game to repeatedly switch dealers. All these things result in losses of $100s of thousands of dollars or more when combined.

Quote: Deck007

CC are not a threat to the casinos but the casino need to keep them under check and are a necessity to them . So I wont say "So casinos now spend dollars to save pennies spend for them".

I AGREE"UNDER CHECK"(good description) BUT NOT UNDER THREAT.

Quote: Paigowdan

to be AP level, your goal is to be able to say "These silly suits didn't see me coming by the time I was OUT of Dodge...." THAT'S AP level....

You seem to have this idea that card counting is all that, us vs them stuff, with high level espionage and running away from security with a bag full of chips like in the movies. I am surprised you haven't brought up disguises. lol.

Quote: Paigowdan

AP play is NOT about trying to break even or making a little bit in a night. It's about working on a getting up a serious nut for the month or period every chance you get.

Again, I think you are watching too many movies. This approach is 180 degrees from my approach. I am a mid-level player, who's top priority is longevity. So, I specialize in identifying and playing within each casinos tolerance and comfort level, which varies by casino, day, shift, even pit people. In addition, I play short sessions, which means, I rarely have those "nut for the month" wins or losses. My wins and losses are indeed much more along the lines of "making (or losing) little bits" here and there. Those small wins add up. :)

Quote: kewlj

Quote: Paigowdan

to be AP level, your goal is to be able to say "These silly suits didn't see me coming by the time I was OUT of Dodge...." THAT'S AP level....

You seem to have this idea that card counting is all that, us vs them stuff, with high level espionage and running away from security with a bag full of chips like in the movies. I am surprised you haven't brought up disguises. lol.

Maybe not....you know, I have to admit the steady winners coloring up $150 "before the show" is under the radar.... ;)
Ah, - perhaps before the next place also just as unnoticed.

Quote: Paigowdan

AP play is NOT about trying to break even or making a little bit in a night. It's about working on a getting up a serious nut for the month or period every chance you get.

Again, I think you are watching too many movies. This approach is 180 degrees from my approach. I am a mid-level player, who's top priority is longevity. So, I specialize in identifying and playing within each casinos tolerance and comfort level, which varies by casino, day, shift, even pit people. In addition, I play short sessions, which means, I rarely have those "nut for the month" wins or losses. My wins and losses are indeed much more along the lines of "making (or losing) little bits" here and there. Those small wins add up. :)

I guess they do....Also, it MUST take some fortitude through the droughts here and there.

Not for the faint hearted, that I know.

Quote: Deck007

Quote: kewlj

So a guy walks into a diner. On the front door is a sign that say "No shoes, No shirt, No service". (we've all seen these signs). The guy, wearing shoes and a shirt sits down at the counter, where he is informed they can not serve him because he is wearing a green shirt and the don't serve patrons in green shirts. "Where is this rule he asks?" Only to be informed it is a secret, unposted, internal rule.

This is how asinine your argument is Dan. I mean really, you have lost any credibility you may of had by continuing to double down with this non-sense. I just feel bad for you. I am embarrassed FOR you. If the casino industry which you defend really shares your mentality it is no wonder they are hemorrhaging both revenue and customers over the last decade.

You keep spitting out game protection. In the case of card counters, there is almost no game protection needed. Card counters are absolutely no thread to the casino, except in the most extreme cases, the very few well financed, really high end players and teams. The business major geeks that now make the decisions (as opposed to when real casino people that know the business ran the show) have somehow become obsessed that card counters are a threat. Probably because they have been sold that crap from the new gaming protection industry that has sprung up in the last decade and needs to sell that myth to make money. So casinos now spend dollars to save pennies, as far as card counters go. And people like you are left to defend these actions and make the ridiculous argument that card counter's are a threat to casinos, when they are no more a thread than Betty White is to win the Boston Marathon. It really is insane.

kewj, this is one time I disagree with you.
You are using some strong lingo here. And what is this you are saying about green shirt and Bette White.
Game protection, hum! Where did you get the idea that the casino operation is about this.
Casinos are out to maximise their profits. And CC are not good for their profits. CC are a nuisance to them but it give them critical mass in the casino.
Where I play with the CSM the casino are not thrill with me playing perfect BJ and flat betting as they make very little from me. But not breaking any of their rules they tolerate me even though I get tons of Comps out of them.
CC are not a threat to the casinos but the casino need to keep them under check and are a necessity to them . So I wont say "So casinos now spend dollars to save pennies spend for them".

You know, there is a very cyclical aspect to it. Safe...not hit hard...safe....then hit HARD...almost seasonal.

There are notches cut into the BJ shoes, to denote the depth to use, - as ordered from above.


Over a period of time, all are gone through - more as a response TO an "event," then a prediction OF an event. We know of a team AFTER the team....

Quote: kewlj

I am surprised you haven't brought up disguises. lol.

5 to 1 he did.

Quote: Paigowdan

My post got jumbled. I'll repost for you.

Dan you're using some harsh words describing AP's Remember our very own host here is also an AP.

Also all the so called greats that turned darkside, you claim they were AP's.
Can you name 4 credible AP's that actually made any significant money for themselves though AP for any significantly period of time?
2 or 3 even? Please exclude DI's and Law breaking cheats.
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Agian explain why casinos 86 Slot, keno and Video poker players who play perfectly within the CASINOS rules?
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So if I don't vary my bet, signal or back count then the casino shouldn't have the right to refuse my action?
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You really believe a business should be able to determine what disorderly or disturbing conduct is with impunity? Sorry but I think that's RETARDED. It should be based on the law or what the average person believes to be disrupted. With that thinking, asking the waitresses to reseat you to a different location could be disruptive.
Perhaps the guy who has a physical tic is disruptive.

I understand Paigowdans viewpoint. It is simply that the casino is the house and they can say what goes on in their house.

I had this same situation with my ex-girlfriend when I moved into her place during a "down" time in my life.

She would scream at me that I was running up her electric bill because I left 60 watt light bulbs on in her house. When I pointed out she left the front screen projection tv running all night with a 3000 watt lightbulb which ran up her electric bill probably 500x what a collection of 60 watt bulbs could, her response was "this is my house and I set the rules."

Was she correct? In a authoritative, dictatorial way but most certainly not in any sensical or moralistic way. To me, if you are so concerned about your electric bill then ACT on it or shut up.

Now all players want to win. No one goes to a casino trying to lose. They do everything WITHIN their power to win. It's just that in most cases, that is not enough to overcome the house edge. A card counter is also doing everything within his power to win and actually can succeed. That is the only difference here.

And like the above domestic example, it leaves a bad taste. You can only try to win if you are going to ultimately lose but once you can actually win, forget about it. Is the casino their house? Yes. Can they set the rules? Absolutely. But is it right? Hardly.

Quote: AxelWolf

My post got jumbled. I'll repost for you.

Dan you're using some harsh words describing AP's Remember our very own host here is also an AP.

Mike S. is an all around gaming guru and gaming supporter; he can be described as such in all knowledgeable gaming camps. He is NOT an AP player per se, he takes a pro-knowledgeable player position which may NOT necessarily mean using AP methodology or hating casino employees. He believes players should be studied on gaming, and he takes the view that players should simply play well without the view that players should always try to use certain methodologies and that people should take neutral views.

Let me say that I did not wish to hurt anyone feelings, but that I disagree with any sort of an angelic or white hat portrayal of either the AP side or the operator side. I believe that the operator side tries to run the casinos and offer games for us in good faith and should NOT simply be declared the enemy for doing so; I believe AP players arbitrarily "declare" the operator or the card room the be an evil enemy in order to justify this whole "us versus them" de rigueur posture. In reality, the casino is a service provider to you, who provides the very venue the AP seeks out, and in response, the AP player may take an very hostile position instead of a cooperative position. It is NOT that the AP player is "supposed" to take a hostile position of their venue provider, it is that they DO.

Quote: AxelWolf

Also all the so called greats that turned darkside, you claim they were AP's.
Can you name 4 credible AP's that actually made any significant money for themselves though AP for any significantly period of time?
2 or 3 even? Please exclude DI's and Law breaking cheats.

What? No, I don't have to do squat, like this is a pop quiz, but I will name a few: Max Rubin, now associated with DEQ, an equipment supplier; Anthony Curtis is a gaming industry publisher (and is friendly to major operator chains through his Las Vegas advisor), our own Mike formerly worked for LVS, a casino operator, and Teliot, etc.
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Quote: AxelWolf

Agian explain why casinos 86 Slot, keno and Video poker players who play perfectly within the CASINOS rules?

Some operators may over-react and may act punitively, and some don't. Also, some players may not be within the rules but claim to be so. It is a mixed bag. From all that I can tell, the vast majority of slot operations for many operators are chugging along smoothly and uneventfully, and in a fashion perfectly cordial to the general player.
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Quote: AxelWolf

So if I don't vary my bet, signal or back count then the casino shouldn't have the right to refuse my action?

No, outside of New Jersey, a casino reserves the right to refuse action, depending on the circumstance. This does not make them "the enemy." This simply makes them a service provider to you where the relationship is a two-way street (BOTH sides have ground rules), and a business operation, and in 99% of experiences are smooth and non-disruptive, so one may also argue that something is up with the 1%-ers.
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Quote: Axelwolf

You really believe a business should be able to determine what disorderly or disturbing conduct is with impunity?

No, but I believe a business should be able to determine what disorderly or disturbing conduct is with review and discretion, and this result may STILL be typically disagreed with by some party.

Quote: Axelwolf

Sorry but I think that's RETARDED. It should be based on the law or what the average person believes to be disrupted. With that thinking, asking the waitresses to reseat you to a different location could be disruptive.
Perhaps the guy who has a physical tic is disruptive.

Come on now...