Getting the most out of my local casino's comps

As I mentioned in the other thread that I created I live close to one of the few casinos in WV.

The BJ rules are very good for the cheap $5 tables.

75%+ shoe penetration (I've seen less than a deck left in the shoe before out of more than one dealer. They tend to have a lot of new and poorly trained dealers.)
Dealer stands on all 17s
Double on any two cards
Double after split
Resplit up to 4 hands
No resplitting Aces
No hitting split Aces
No surrender

Ok, on to their comp program. Everyone with a players card gets $80 a month in match plays ($40 every two weeks). On top of this, you get points on your card for buying in and time spent at tables.

My thoughts are to play with a weak system to try and bring the house edge to 0 or close to it and play with the goal of just converting those match plays into cash. I'm new to counting and really just learning. I've used Ace Five count a few times at this casino before just to get my feet wet. I've also been trying my best to get proficient with REKO but I think speed counting might also help with what I'm trying to accomplish.

Any thoughts?

Good find! Wizard's edge calculator puts that game at just over .40% HE, assuming you're talking about 6 deck. I'm sure you'll have no trouble erasing that edge with a level 1 count and a modest spread. As for when to wong and what spread to use to break even, you may want to check out this very informative thread by theOmega623 a few months ago:

Counting_for_Comps

In the thread, they discuss what the possibility of playing an even game with the house and racking up comps. I bet you could make it work at your casino, but remember you may need practice and a deep bankroll to reproduce your 'on-paper' expectations.

Oops, forgot to mention it's an 8 deck shoe.

Generally 6-8 deck shoes are lumped in together for counting purposes though, right?

Quote: DavidHasEdge

Oops, forgot to mention it's an 8 deck shoe.

Generally 6-8 deck shoes are lumped in together for counting purposes though, right?

Yes, the strategy is the same. Eight decks brings the house edge up to .44%. Penetration can overcome some mediocre rules. If you can play with the dealers who deal down to less than a deck you can get a decent advantage when counting. That's almost 90% pen!

REKO is fine to start but nothing less - please.

Quote: 1BB

...Eight decks brings the house edge up to 44%...

Ouch!!!

I think you missed one very minute detail.

Quote: DavidHasEdge

Oops, forgot to mention it's an 8 deck shoe.

Generally 6-8 deck shoes are lumped in together for counting purposes though, right?

The difference is .02% in house edge. This can be found on the Wizards rule variations (which is also screenshotted and referenced in the thread linked below).

75%+ and up to 90% PEN? Now you're talking a game that could be profitable! It sounds like your overall goal though is to enjoy playing and not lose money in the process? If your goal is to make money, you should definitely play for more than comps. At the red chip level, you can definitely play a positive spread and not get backed off or have any problems. You should be able to spread $5-$60 (12-1) spread no problem, and the EV per hour on this game would ~= $8.60/hour. This is piddily, but at least you're making money to go with your comps.

The weakest spread I would suggest with this game would be $5-$30 (6-1). This leaves you at a little over $4/hour, which you'll need this buffer for your errors/mistakes. Especially as a new counter a lot of people don't think about these things, but they definitely happen. What if you miss a play here or there, or accidentally bet under what you should because you think you're getting heat, etc. You need a few dollars per hour buffer if you really want a "break even" game.

Would you like to know how to calculate these hourly EV's so you can play with a spread that works for you, and your bankroll? Have you compared your spread to your bankroll? Do you know about RoR, what your RoR is, etc? Even if you're using REKO, or whatever count, please check out my A to Z Counting Cards in Blackjack thread. There's a plethora of information in there for new counters. In fact, I made the thread FOR people in your situation!

p.s. I would stay away from Ace-5 and speed count. If done 100% correctly, they can yeild a positive expectation, but if you're going to trouble yourself with counting at all, why on God's Earth not deploy something wayyyy more powerful, and really not much more difficult to learn/practice at all?

Thanks for all the great info!

Ideally I'd like to be mildly profitable but not so much that I lose out on comps. I play holdem here as well and rack up a lot of points from that on my card from time to time. I'd like this to sort of be my sandbox for learning and then take some weekend trips to other casinos within driving distance and try to get more aggressive without really caring much about heat. I'm going to Philadelphia this summer and I hear that PA has some great BJ games right now.

Anyhow, I'll take your advice on the spread. I already play with a pretty aggressive spread and no one has ever batted an eye. RoR, I'm not familiar with I don't think. I'm currently reading Modern Blackjack, Second Edition. I chose this book because the author seems to be the authority on REKO and REKO seems to be the next step up from Ace Five and Speed Count.

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

Ouch!!!

I think you missed one very minute detail.

Ha ha. Who knew one little dot could make a huge difference? I fixed my post and am waiting for the red to leave my face. :-)

Quote: 1BB

Ha ha. Who knew one little dot could make a huge difference? I fixed my post and am waiting for the red to leave my face. :-)

Yeah. I think at that point, I'd welcome 1:1 blackjack!

Quote: DavidHasEdge

Thanks for all the great info!

Ideally I'd like to be mildly profitable but not so much that I lose out on comps. I play holdem here as well and rack up a lot of points from that on my card from time to time. I'd like this to sort of be my sandbox for learning and then take some weekend trips to other casinos within driving distance and try to get more aggressive without really caring much about heat. I'm going to Philadelphia this summer and I hear that PA has some great BJ games right now.

Anyhow, I'll take your advice on the spread. I already play with a pretty aggressive spread and no one has ever batted an eye. RoR, I'm not familiar with I don't think. I'm currently reading Modern Blackjack, Second Edition. I chose this book because the author seems to be the authority on REKO and REKO seems to be the next step up from Ace Five and Speed Count.

Modern Blackjack is a great book as is anything that Norm has to offer, even if you have to pay for some of it. Check out his forum. It's called Blackjacktheforum.

Quote: DavidHasEdge

Thanks for all the great info!

Ideally I'd like to be mildly profitable but not so much that I lose out on comps...

So many people, even intermediate/advanced counters say this... but to you I pose a simple question. Would you rather make $40/hour with no comps? Or $20/hour with comps that come out to be about $5/hour, so $25/hour total??

Listen, I love comps just as much or more than anyone. I think the irony of them giving me free stuff because they think I'm another sucker is just too good not to smile and laugh about. However, so long as having a card won't get you backed off (black chip level this is a red flag, but not so much at red chips) then why worry about the comps? Comps really aren't worth 'a lot' of money generally. Say your comps are worth $100/mo (assuming you count $20 for food and that's the 'real value' of the food you're eating)... Say you play 20 hours in a month, so 5 hours per week, or maybe 2 weekend days a month of 10 hours. Then your $100 in comps is really worth $5/hour, of your play. So again, would you rather spread lighter, making $20/hour blackjack + $5/hour comps, or would you rather spread harder and make $35/hour just from BJ?

Personally, I'd take the extra $10/hour, in cash =).

Please do look at my thread and understand RoR. This is another common pitfall new counters get in. They think "I'm playing a winning game, how could I ever go broke?" There's this thing called variance, my friend. And you must be able to withstand swings that are mathematically correlated to your spread. Thus, if your biggest bet is $60, you might need a $6,000 bankroll to assure yourself you won't go bust. However if your big bet is $30, you might only need a $3,000 bankroll. These are highly subjective to your spread/big bet/etc. Again, please read about RoR, bankroll requirements, spreads, etc in my thread. I wouldn't wager real money yet if I were you, as you 'think' you have a winning game, but you don't 'know' you have a winning game right now. Best of luck and feel free to ask any further questions.

Thanks again for the advice. The comps are nice (especially the $80 in match plays each month) but more than anything I don't want to get banned at my hometown casino that's 5min away with the next closest one being 3 hours away. I tend to only play once every two weeks to take advantage of the match plays. I'll play holdem more often than that sometimes.

I will definitely read everything that anyone recommends. This being a hobby and the fact I generally just enjoy playing keeps me from getting upset if I bust out on any given night.

Quote: 1BB

Yes, the strategy is the same. Eight decks brings the house edge up to .44%. Penetration can overcome some mediocre rules. If you can play with the dealers who deal down to less than a deck you can get a decent advantage when counting. That's almost 90% pen!

REKO is fine to start but nothing less - please.

whats the difference between reko and ko?

REKO = Really Easy KO

It's unbalanced, so no dividing by number of decks left.

Start with -27 I believe for 8 decks and start your betting progression at -4. Or start with 0 and don't start your betting progression until +23.

REKO also counts 7 as +1, I'm not sure if plain ole KO does or not.

Those are the main differences, to my very limited understanding.

Ridiculous easy KO. I've never used it or any unbalanced count but I have looked at them all. REKO is just a little simpler version of KO. Qfit.com has everything you'll ever want to know on the subject.

Quote: 1BB

Ridiculous easy KO. I've never used it or any unbalanced count but I have looked at them all. REKO is just a little simpler version of KO. Qfit.com has everything you'll ever want to know on the subject.

they seem the same?
I cant tell what the difference is???

ko: https://www.qfit.com/cardcounting/K-O/
reko: https://www.qfit.com/cardcounting/REKO/

Quote: 100xOdds

they seem the same?
I cant tell what the difference is???

ko: https://www.qfit.com/cardcounting/K-O/
reko: https://www.qfit.com/cardcounting/REKO/

As you can see, the tags, betting correlation, playing efficiency and insurance correlation are exactly the same for both counts. What makes REKO a littler simpler is the way it's applied.

With KO some decisions are based on the key count, others are based on the pivot. With REKO all strategy changes are made at +2 giving the player less to remember. I had to look some of this up to refresh my memory. As I've mentioned, I have never used an unbalanced count.

You're familiar with qfit but you could actually join BlackjackTheForum and pose any questions to Norm himself.