stabworld
stabworld
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May 16th, 2015 at 1:41:54 AM permalink
Quote: RS

Which is why you just grab your chips and leave. Don't bolt for the door or run. When approached, let them talk for a second or two. Ultimately, you want to get your stuff and leave. Don't have a conversation with them. If they say something say "OK" and leave (or say "I'm leaving right now" // "I was just about to leave").



My question is: can they prevent me from grabbing my chips from the table, under the pretense/suspicion that, I am somebody that was suspected of card counting, and previously warned not to play there? (Using, "the chips are casino property" card)
RS
RS
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May 16th, 2015 at 2:24:07 AM permalink
They can detain you if you've done something illegal or if they legitimately suspect you of cheating.

Card counting is not illegal nor cheating.
Being somebody who is not wanted or being somebody who is suspected of counting (or being a counter) are also not illegal nor cheating.



No, they cannot (legally) detain/restrict you from leaving [unless they legitimately suspect cheating or illegal activity (which you weren't doing)].
AxelWolf
AxelWolf
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May 16th, 2015 at 3:29:39 AM permalink
Quote: RS

They can detain you if you've done something illegal or if they legitimately suspect you of cheating.

Card counting is not illegal nor cheating.
Being somebody who is not wanted or being somebody who is suspected of counting (or being a counter) are also not illegal nor cheating.



No, they cannot (legally) detain/restrict you from leaving [unless they legitimately suspect cheating or illegal activity (which you weren't doing)].

They can, they have and they do.

But you may have the right to sue. Be prepared for a $2500 retainer fee, unless they do something really outrageous.

Also security guards often lie as a group.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
Ibeatyouraces
Ibeatyouraces
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May 16th, 2015 at 7:24:25 AM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

...Also security guards often lie as a group.



So do casinos as a whole. Just watch all the lies they spout in their tv ads.
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
Romes
Romes 
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May 21st, 2015 at 8:38:39 AM permalink
Let him talk for a minute, say "Okay I was just heading out and I'd like to leave." In a non-threatening way simply pocket your chips and walk 'purposefully' towards the nearest exit. Do not run, jog, etc. Security are like dogs... If they see something run by they instinctively want to chase it.

You absolutely did NOT have to give your ID up, which it sounds like you did. So now you're burned at all of their properties. I hope there's a lesson learned as this has been posted and discussed MANY times before on what to do in a situation like this.
Playing it correctly means you've already won.
TwoFeathersATL
TwoFeathersATL
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May 21st, 2015 at 2:44:29 PM permalink
Quote: Romes

Let him talk for a minute, say "Okay I was just heading out and I'd like to leave." In a non-threatening way simply pocket your chips and walk 'purposefully' towards the nearest exit. Do not run, jog, etc. Security are like dogs... If they see something run by they instinctively want to chase it.

You absolutely did NOT have to give your ID up, which it sounds like you did. So now you're burned at all of their properties. I hope there's a lesson learned as this has been posted and discussed MANY times before on what to do in a situation like this.


Or you could just turn around and face the animals. Quietly ask "who's going first"?
Youuuuuu MIGHT be a 'rascal' if.......(nevermind ;-)...2F
stabworld
stabworld
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June 4th, 2015 at 4:29:11 PM permalink
Quote: Romes

Let him talk for a minute, say "Okay I was just heading out and I'd like to leave." In a non-threatening way simply pocket your chips and walk 'purposefully' towards the nearest exit. Do not run, jog, etc. Security are like dogs... If they see something run by they instinctively want to chase it.

You absolutely did NOT have to give your ID up, which it sounds like you did. So now you're burned at all of their properties. I hope there's a lesson learned as this has been posted and discussed MANY times before on what to do in a situation like this.



Ok, I did exactly that yesterday. I was followed by 2 suits after cashing out my chips at the cage. I was asked to give id, "I refused at this point". They called security, I again was asked to produce I.D., "I again refused". I told them, "I am on my way out the casino and have no desire to produce I.D." Then a 3rd suit, (I think he was the head of security) said, "we can do this the hard way or the easy way." Just give me your id. "I again refused". Security came, escorted me to the security area, then police came, and asked for my id. "I again refused" As soon as I refused, they forced my hands behind my back, put me in handcuffs, and searched my pockets against my consent. (I did not resist, and was compliant during the whole ordeal., the only thing I was non-compliant with, was refusing to give i.d.)

They had me detained for 30 minutes, going through my personal items in my pockets (one of them being my id. so they eventually were able to prove who they believed I was). During the scuffle, of forcing my hands behind my back and them aggressively digging though my pockets, they cut my right arm, which I just took pictures of. It's not a major cut, but it is a cut nevertheless. I also woke up, with my arms and wrists sore, from being in cuffs for over 20 minutes or so.

*side note,* I was flat-betted at this casino already, prior to this incident.

They took a picture of me (without my consent, while I was in cuffs against the wall they forced me to stand at). They evicted me from the property, and banned me from coming back. I did sign the paper acknowledging the ban (eviction). (not sure if I refused to sign, what they would have done, I just wanted to be out the situation already). I was told, I can call or write to get reinstated (which I have no desire to do).

************** Do I have a lawsuit here? ***************

(I would like to get some opinions here from people who went though this already, or have knowledge on the subject - to see if it is worth pursuing)

(my thoughts are, I was under no suspicion of a crime, therefore, I do not have to produce i.d.. I was under suspicion of breaking the casino rules of betting over the limits they had in place for me at a blackjack table. I do not believe this warrants or gives them a right to force-ably, handcuff me, search my pockets, go though my personal items, and detain me for refusing to give my i.d.)

This was an embarrassing and degrading situation to have to go though, as it was done very close to the gaming floor, with onlookers watching. All because, I am playing a game offered by the casino. playing it in a way they don't like. I was treated like a criminal for "playing a game strategically", and refusing to give i.d. when asked, when I am under no legal obligation to do so.
Romes
Romes 
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June 5th, 2015 at 6:51:46 AM permalink
Quote: stabworld

Ok, I did exactly that yesterday. I was followed by 2 suits after cashing out my chips at the cage. I was asked to give id, "I refused at this point". They called security, I again was asked to produce I.D., "I again refused". I told them, "I am on my way out the casino and have no desire to produce I.D." Then a 3rd suit, (I think he was the head of security) said, "we can do this the hard way or the easy way." Just give me your id. "I again refused". Security came, escorted me to the security area, then police came, and asked for my id. "I again refused" As soon as I refused, they forced my hands behind my back, put me in handcuffs, and searched my pockets against my consent. (I did not resist, and was compliant during the whole ordeal., the only thing I was non-compliant with, was refusing to give i.d.)

They had me detained for 30 minutes, going through my personal items in my pockets (one of them being my id. so they eventually were able to prove who they believed I was). During the scuffle, of forcing my hands behind my back and them aggressively digging though my pockets, they cut my right arm, which I just took pictures of. It's not a major cut, but it is a cut nevertheless. I also woke up, with my arms and wrists sore, from being in cuffs for over 20 minutes or so.

*side note,* I was flat-betted at this casino already, prior to this incident.

They took a picture of me (without my consent, while I was in cuffs against the wall they forced me to stand at). They evicted me from the property, and banned me from coming back. I did sign the paper acknowledging the ban (eviction). (not sure if I refused to sign, what they would have done, I just wanted to be out the situation already). I was told, I can call or write to get reinstated (which I have no desire to do).

************** Do I have a lawsuit here? ***************

(I would like to get some opinions here from people who went though this already, or have knowledge on the subject - to see if it is worth pursuing)

(my thoughts are, I was under no suspicion of a crime, therefore, I do not have to produce i.d.. I was under suspicion of breaking the casino rules of betting over the limits they had in place for me at a blackjack table. I do not believe this warrants or gives them a right to force-ably, handcuff me, search my pockets, go though my personal items, and detain me for refusing to give my i.d.)

This was an embarrassing and degrading situation to have to go though, as it was done very close to the gaming floor, with onlookers watching. All because, I am playing a game offered by the casino. playing it in a way they don't like. I was treated like a criminal for "playing a game strategically", and refusing to give i.d. when asked, when I am under no legal obligation to do so.


Wow, quite the story... I hope you're okay!

So they didn't approach you at all while you were playing? They waited until after you cashed out and then stopped you randomly on the casino floor asking for ID? You are absolutely within your rights to refuse giving your ID to them at this point. They can ask, but they can not require, stop, or detain you. Of course all of this depends on your actual story and what you were doing, I'm just going off of what you wrote.

The only problem I see is you not giving your ID to the police officers. Unfortunately if the police are called they have the right to ID people with probable cause. They were brought to the casino for an incident (doesn't matter what it was) and as most cops do, they'll instantly just start ID'ing people to check if anyone has anything they can arrest them for. Here I would have given my ID to the actual police officers (never a casino employee) and told them "I'm showing you my ID for the purposes of identifying myself to a police officer. This information is not for you to disseminate to the casino, whom have no right to my information. I was doing absolutely nothing illegal and will sue to protect my information from wrongly being distributed."

When you refuse to give ID to an actual police officer they're legally allowed to arrest/detain you until they can figure out who you are, because they need to be able to check for warrants, etc. If you didn't have ANY ID on you they would have taken you to the station and finger printed you / held you until some form of identification could be provided for you.

When you're in a casino, you're out in the open for them to take your picture. Think about it. You're on camera from the moment you walk in. They are within their rights to stop the video and take a still frame as a picture. This is why many casinos have 'choke points' set up where everyone has to go through some open, narrow hallway where they can get a good shot of everyone's face. Now if they took you to a backroom and asked you to smile, you by no means have to look directly at the camera/etc. At this point after the police showed up though, you were in a tough spot. Your best course of action would have been to cooperate with the actual police. Prior to the actual police showing up you should have pulled your phone out and video recorded you saying "I wish to leave this establishment. You have no right to detain me and I wish to leave. Please let me leave." Saying this over and over would show they're detaining you against your will (i.e. kidnapping).

What you signed was you being trespassed from their property (properties?). You're now hard barred there and could face troubles if you go back to their property (properties)? This is why casinos want your ID so bad. They can't 'technically' bar someone if they don't know who they are. They can say "never come back" but it means nothing unless they have your ID to fill out the trespass paperwork.

Do you have a lawsuit?
First, I'll say CONSULT A LAWYER. While a lot of people on here are familiar with the do's and don'ts, your individual state/etc could have some minor different laws. Also, I hope you weren't playing on at an indian casino, because 99/100 times that just means tough luck for you as they have their own courts and can do pretty much whatever they want.

Now that the disclaimer is out of the way, I'll give my opinion... You quite possibly do. I need to hear more of your story on how/when they stopped you. There was obviously a point in which security would not let you leave before the police were called. How did this situation come about? You said it was after you cashed your chips. Did anyone talk to you before that? Did they stop you at the door and refuse to let you leave? Did you state numerous times you wanted to leave? Would it be obvious on video that you were trying to leave and they wouldn't let you? Did they give you any reasons as to why you weren't allowed to leave? Please give a very detailed breakdown of your story prior to the police showing up.

I'm sorry you had to deal with this situation, it unfortunately still happens with uneducated casinos. For now if I was you I would NOT list the casino here, but you can say whether or not it was a tribal/indian casino or not.

EDIT - You should probably also copy your previous post and make this it's own thread. It will get a lot more traffic/responses to potentially help you.
Playing it correctly means you've already won.
stabworld
stabworld
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June 5th, 2015 at 9:15:07 AM permalink
Quote: Romes

Wow, quite the story... I hope you're okay!

So they didn't approach you at all while you were playing?


No

Quote: Romes

They waited until after you cashed out and then stopped you randomly on the casino floor asking for ID?


Yes. But obviously it wasn't random, they followed me and knew who I was.

Quote: Romes

What you signed was you being trespassed from their property (properties?). You're now hard barred there and could face troubles if you go back to their property (properties)?



Yes.

Quote: Romes

I need to hear more of your story on how/when they stopped you. There was obviously a point in which security would not let you leave before the police were called. How did this situation come about? You said it was after you cashed your chips. Did anyone talk to you before that? Did they stop you at the door and refuse to let you leave? Did you state numerous times you wanted to leave? Would it be obvious on video that you were trying to leave and they wouldn't let you? Did they give you any reasons as to why you weren't allowed to leave? Please give a very detailed breakdown of your story prior to the police showing up.



I was not approached at the table. After I got up from the table, I proceeded to the cage to cash my chips. About 15 seconds later, as I am on my way out the casino, somebody from behind me, is calling out my first name (a suit). I know what it's about, however, I ignore them, like I don't hear the person. Another 30 seconds later, I hear from behind me, now 2 suits, yell out 'Sir", 'Sir", it was so loud, it was almost impossible to ignore. So I turn around, and they approach me. They say "are you (my first name)?" I respond, "no". They ask me again the same question, I again say no. Then they ask, "do you have i.d. on you.". I say "no". I said "what is this about?" They say "we have identified you as an advantage player who was told before to only bet the table minimum and you were just playing above those limits." I said, "I don't know who (my first name), but that's not me, and I have no i.d. I am on my way out the casino. " They continued to ask for i.d. A 3rd suit comes on the scene. By the way this is in a main hallway of the casino with a lot of foot traffic. They probably asked for i.d. at least 7 to 8 times. I did state to them, that I wanted to leave, and had to go numerous times. The 3rd suit radio's into security to come and says on the radio "he is refusing to give i.d.". Security comes, and hovers around me in a way where I can't walk away from there. They say come with me. I asked "where am I going"? They respond "to the security area". I go with them. That's when police arrive.

Quote: Romes

I'm sorry you had to deal with this situation, it unfortunately still happens with uneducated casinos. For now if I was you I would NOT list the casino here, but you can say whether or not it was a tribal/indian casino or not.



It was an indian casino, and the police were not local police, but tribal police.
stabworld
stabworld
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June 5th, 2015 at 9:25:26 AM permalink
I have moved this conversation into a new thread. (please post there)

--------------> http://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/blackjack/22296-do-i-have-a-lawsuit-illegally-detained-and-handcuffed/#post462973

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