Borgata AC - Classified me as a Skilled player/comps frozen

Hi All,

Looking for some help and insight on this. Have been going to Borgata for over 10 years and play mostly blackjack, i probably go on average once a month or every other month. I recently logged into my Rewards account and noticed all my offers were gone and comp room dates were gone. I called them up and was transferred to a table games manager and told that I have been classified as a skilled player and therefore going forward I can come play bj but must follow their rules of playing one hand, betting limits and they have the right to shuffle halfway through the shoe. I may have gotten some of the exact details wrong with what she said but it was along those lines. To be honest with you I had no idea what skilled player even meant and when I asked the table games mgr, all she said was since I am not profitable to them anymore they can refuse to provide me with comp dollars moving forward.
I was still confused about this and looked up skilled player which led me to advantage playing, card counting, and this forum. I do not count cards or do anything to gain an advantage. I usually go to the no mid shoe entry pit at Borgata and go to the $25 or $50 minimum tables. I cash in 1k-2k usually and will usually start off firing $100 and then increase it slowly if I am on a good winning streak. If I lose a bunch of hands in a row and feel like I am a little unlucky or running bad I will bet the minimum 25-50 and finish off the shoe. If I hit a few double downs or win a few hands in a row I will add to my bet. Normally once I get to $500 a hand range is where I max out and I only play one hand. The only times I will play a second hand is when the dealer is seemingly on a hot streak and everyone on the table agrees someone should play an extra hand to break it up a little and usually after that I go back to one hand.
Could it be that on a recent session when I was running good they figured I was counting. If they hired a team of people to root out card counters, they are not doing a good job because I am not a card counter.
I have a host who I reached out to and he said this was out of his hands and could not do anything. It just sucks because whenever I do go to AC, I prefer to play there, have a host, get rooms and eat most of my meals down there. Just wanted to see what everyone thinks I should do, and if there is any chance I may be affected if I play at other AC properties or even Vegas. I called one other time and the shift manager guy I spoke to suggested I call another time and ask for the VP or Director of table games, but it felt like he was just trying to pass the buck and not really help answer my questions.


I also searched through previous threads and someone had a similar situation to me but back in 2012 so not sure if anything has changed since then. Also saw some posts from some user named Lemieux but seemed like everyone thought he was overly paranoid or lying.

thanks in advance!

If I were you I would try writing a formal letter saying the above, and ask them to review your account as a long term customer? Do you have won/loss records from them or your own records? Proving a long term loss (before comps) may help.

lol so you look more like a counter than the counters do. I'll tell you why you got flagged: your bet spread. In order to make money in blackjack, you have to bet more money when the count is high and bet as little as possible when count is low. If you bet a lot of money when count is good, you make more money. You went from $25 to $500, that's 1-20 spread which is very aggressive from a card counter's point of view. A good card counter would never spread that much under typical conditions. Why? Because the more you spread, the more you look like a counter, and the more likely you will get a skills check done on you. Surveillance probably did a skills check on you, and just by dumb luck, you happened to be increasing bets with the count. Or it could be that you were winning and had a huge spread, at which point they didn't even do a skills check, they just soft barred you. If that is the case, then they are really doing themselves a disservice. They are losing a good customer.

I say you should ask them to review tapes of your play. They will see that you're not a counter. If they don't change their minds, well then, forget them! Go to a better place where they appreciate your business. Not all casinos are paranoid. You should be able to bet however you want if you are just playing blackjack and not counting. What kind of rules where they giving you over there anyway? Why don't you take a trip to vegas such as the aria where they have good rules: double deck s17. The guys over there are actually competent and will actually know whether you are counting or not.

The casino are in the business to win your money. If they give you comps, it is cost of doing business. They get you drunk so that you will stay and lose your money. They give you a room so you can stay at their property and lose your money. The feed you at their property so you will stay at their property and ...... you guessed it, so you will lose your money. If you are a winning player, they will cut you off. Casino host are there to have you gamble, and have you lose your money. F@@@ them. They don't want your business and since casinos are private property, they can stop you from playing there.

Just go to the table game manager and say that you will double all hard 12, and hit all hard 17, and see what kind of comps you get.

FYI, I had Trop shuffle on me with 3/4 of the shoe remaining when I increased my bet. I didn't get any comps because I did not show them my ID. I had 20k at Trump Plaza and they wanted me to give them my id so they could comp me a room and a meal. I told them no thanks. When they kept pestering me, I grabbed a purple chip and asked how many night I can stay with this. I grabbled a stack of 20 purple and asked if I can fill a bathtub with Dom with this.

Telling them you are not and advantage player or a card counter does not matter. They are pricks who want your money. They don't want to hear anything from you so just go away and tell them to f@@@ themselves. Anyone who tells you that casinos are providing you a form of entertainment will also agree with the statement that dope dealers are providing addict with medicine. Tell Borgata to they are idiots for not allowing a losing bj player to play at their property. If you are a winning player, than just take the winnings and play somewhere else.

What is the largest win you have ever had at Borgata?

Quote: AceCrAAckers

They don't want your business and since casinos are private property, they can stop you from playing there.
.

This is not true in NJ. The NJ Supreme Court ruled that casinos are public places of business and cannot bar skilled players.

What they can do is shuffle whenever they want, limit you to a certain betting size, limit you to one hand, take away your rooms and your comp dollars and your cushy amphora lounge.

But they can't stop you from playing.


If I were the original poster, I would take my business elsewhere for a while. Plenty of stores would be happy to host a blackjack player of that level.

thanks surrender88s, I was contemplating emailing or writing a formal letter. They have my win/loss #s from 2012,2013,1014 still available on their site and I was up in 2012, down in 2013 and up in 2014, all for around the same amount. But I know I had some brutal years before that where I was probably definitely down for a couple years in a row.

Yea Avincow thanks for the feedback, from reading through a bunch of these other threads I do see where my bet spread could have been noticed, but I was sort of just adding or pressing my bet trying to ride a lucky streak. But yea I definitely do think it was definitely unfortunate luck that maybe the count was good while I was increasing my bets. Borgata has a few different pits but the one I was playing at is 6 decks, no mid shoe entry and dealer stands on all 17s. Vegas does sound good right about now but usually I think I used to go maybe a couple times a year but these days we just need to wait for someone having his bachelor party there as an excuse to go lol so maybe once a year if anything.

Quote: sodawater

This is not true in NJ. The NJ Supreme Court ruled that casinos are public places of business and cannot bar skilled players.

What they can do is shuffle whenever they want, limit you to a certain betting size, limit you to one hand, take away your rooms and your comp dollars and your cushy amphora lounge.

But they can't stop you from playing.


If I were the original poster, I would take my business elsewhere for a while. Plenty of stores would be happy to host a blackjack player of that level.

thanks sodawater, I guess I could go elsewhere but I think just knowing that I was wrongly accused is just irking me. Man you are making me miss the rooms and that Amphora Lounge now...wish I would've eaten there last time if I knew I might never be allowed back. Do you think it is worth me trying to get my privileges back?

Quote: mrfrancks

What is the largest win you have ever had at Borgata?

Probably around 5k. Usually when I am up a decent amount I start to think of when to shut it down. Just hate that feeling of playing out the shoe a little longer and ending up back at square one thinking why didnt I just get up. My biggest loss was also in the 5k+ range, just running bad and on tilt sometimes.

Quote: TedM

thanks sodawater, I guess I could go elsewhere but I think just knowing that I was wrongly accused is just irking me. Man you are making me miss the rooms and that Amphora Lounge now...wish I would've eaten there last time if I knew I might never be allowed back. Do you think it is worth me trying to get my privileges back?

If you really are just playing blackjack without counting, maybe offer to give them some play at other games where they can be sure you have no edge.

The Borgata 6D game with no counting is not that good. You would do as well betting $25-$500 at baccarat or craps. If it's really important to you to get the Borgata amenities, maybe write/call a table games executive and offer to play other games in return for your My Borgata Rewards back.

Comps are supposed to be a reward for putting in action. Wins or losses really shouldn't have to do anything with it.

I posted the question of 'could you be banned just for winning' a month or so ago. The consensus opinion seemed to be a definate "no". Now I read this story.... Lifetime, yea, I'm still a loser at BJ. If you added my tips and comps back in then I become a lifetime winner ( by a little bit ). I have noticed that some of the entities that used to offer me huge comps have gotten very quiet lately. I don't count cards either. I'm not sure how to continue to be perceived as a 'sucker'. One would think that the 9K I dropped a couple of weeks ago would help.... But it's way too quiet...2F

Quote: sodawater

If you really are just playing blackjack without counting, maybe offer to give them some play at other games where they can be sure you have no edge.

The Borgata 6D game with no counting is not that good. You would do as well betting $25-$500 at baccarat or craps. If it's really important to you to get the Borgata amenities, maybe write/call a table games executive and offer to play other games in return for your My Borgata Rewards back.

If they think he's a counter, sure they will let him play baccarat and carps. But i don't think that will get him back on the blackjack tables. once they made up their mind, they made up their mind.

I think a formal letter requesting video review of his previous play is the only way to get reinstated. Has this ever worked before? Not that I have ever heard of, but it seems like a logical solution. However, if there was any logical thought processes going on at the Borgata, none of this would have ever happened in the first place.

Quote: Avincow

If they think he's a counter, sure they will let him play baccarat and carps. But i don't think that will get him back on the blackjack tables. once they made up their mind, they made up their mind.

I think a formal letter requesting video review of his previous play is the only way to get reinstated. Has this ever worked before? Not that I have ever heard of, but it seems like a logical solution. However, if there was any logical thought processes going on at the Borgata, none of this would have ever happened in the first place.

What are you talking about? The OP is upset because they took his rooms and comps away. He still is allowed to play blackjack. He is just not getting any comps. Playing other table games in exchange for comps is a possible solution.

Given what you are describing, it is really surprising that Borgata would take such action even if your were counting. An occasional 20:1 spread (even if it was coincident with a high count) is not going to beat that game (and they know that). A top bet of $500 and a top win of $5000 should not have put you on their radar. If you're really interested in getting this reversed I would recommend sending a letter to the CEO of Borgata laying out your case in a firm and businesslike manner. Don't disparage them but don't grovel either. Emphasize your long history of play. Ask to have your comps restored and your status and offers reinstated. I would suggest sending the letter using FedEx or some other overnight delivery service. That will make sure that it gets noticed and responded to promptly.

I have done this in the past when I have had issues with a casino and have always gotten positive results. Good Luck.

I'm stunned at the number of people suggesting you write a letter. The Borgata thinks you're a counter. They aren't going to change their minds. Move on.

For all the people telling you to move on, I guess they are okay with being be banned from the Ritz and now finding Holiday Inn as an acceptable replacement.

Quote: zoobrew

For all the people telling you to move on, I guess they are okay with being be banned from the Ritz and now finding Holiday Inn as an acceptable replacement.

No, they're just realistic that the Ritz isn't letting you back.

I agree letter writing will probably not help.

What I would do, personally, is inform some gambling newsmen or even just local papers. It might not be front page news but gamblers being mistreated because they are mistaken as card counters might be considered newsworthy.

It may embarrass them or hurt their business to have negative publicity which will be at least a good feeling of revenge.

It will probably get you heard quicker than any letter you may send.

Making such a stink that you are not a card counter may have them reverse their decision and if not, hey, you still got that revenge.

Finally, upon hearing the way you were treated and that you aren't a counter, you may find some quite pleasant offers from their competition.

Quote: Avincow

I think a formal letter requesting video review of his previous play is the only way to get reinstated. .

I'm sure they will dig out the video records and review them. Face it, he/she's small player they caught on to and are making an example of. You, said business, can only do this when times are good. Borgata gets so much free good publicity they I'm sure like I say will really be inclined to go back and look at video of a small black jack player. They have considered the fact they might lose him as a customer, and don't care.

Quote: TedM

Hi All,

Looking for some help and insight on this. Have been going to Borgata for over 10 years and play mostly blackjack, i probably go on average once a month or every other month. I recently logged into my Rewards account and noticed all my offers were gone and comp room dates were gone. I called them up and was transferred to a table games manager and told that I have been classified as a skilled player and therefore going forward I can come play bj but must follow their rules of playing one hand, betting limits and they have the right to shuffle halfway through the shoe. I may have gotten some of the exact details wrong with what she said but it was along those lines. To be honest with you I had no idea what skilled player even meant and when I asked the table games mgr, all she said was since I am not profitable to them anymore they can refuse to provide me with comp dollars moving forward.
I was still confused about this and looked up skilled player which led me to advantage playing, card counting, and this forum. I do not count cards or do anything to gain an advantage. I usually go to the no mid shoe entry pit at Borgata and go to the $25 or $50 minimum tables. I cash in 1k-2k usually and will usually start off firing $100 and then increase it slowly if I am on a good winning streak. If I lose a bunch of hands in a row and feel like I am a little unlucky or running bad I will bet the minimum 25-50 and finish off the shoe. If I hit a few double downs or win a few hands in a row I will add to my bet. Normally once I get to $500 a hand range is where I max out and I only play one hand. The only times I will play a second hand is when the dealer is seemingly on a hot streak and everyone on the table agrees someone should play an extra hand to break it up a little and usually after that I go back to one hand.
Could it be that on a recent session when I was running good they figured I was counting. If they hired a team of people to root out card counters, they are not doing a good job because I am not a card counter.
I have a host who I reached out to and he said this was out of his hands and could not do anything. It just sucks because whenever I do go to AC, I prefer to play there, have a host, get rooms and eat most of my meals down there. Just wanted to see what everyone thinks I should do, and if there is any chance I may be affected if I play at other AC properties or even Vegas. I called one other time and the shift manager guy I spoke to suggested I call another time and ask for the VP or Director of table games, but it felt like he was just trying to pass the buck and not really help answer my questions.


I also searched through previous threads and someone had a similar situation to me but back in 2012 so not sure if anything has changed since then. Also saw some posts from some user named Lemieux but seemed like everyone thought he was overly paranoid or lying.

thanks in advance!

I like the fact that you explained how you found this site. It sounds like you read enough of it to know, if you hadn't explained that part someone might assume you were someone else posing under a new name.

I'm surprised the casinos actually admit they target skilled players anymore. That's very bad PR.

You can talk to a host, but it's rare
management will ever change their minds.

I have only seen a casino derision like this get reversed a few times in 15 years. Even then, they almost always leave some kind of notes in the computer. Even if you unlock your old earned comps, future ones are usually blacklisted and you get no mailed.

You're not an AP so it shouldn't bother you much. Find a new place and rebuild comps. Sometimes casinos they give extra to new members.

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

Comps are supposed to be a reward for putting in action. Wins or losses really shouldn't have to do anything with it.

No, comps are a way to try to keep you happy while you continue to lose. Comps are them giving you a small fraction of your theoretical loss back to make you feel like you're getting something for your money, when in reality all they're doing is buying your buffets, rooms, etc, with your own damn money.

Quote: Romes

No, comps are a way to try to keep you happy while you continue to lose. Comps are them giving you a small fraction of your theoretical loss back to make you feel like you're getting something for your money, when in reality all they're doing is buying your buffets, rooms, etc, with your own damn money.

Sure that's how they are treated now a days but that wasn't the intent went first implemented many years ago.

Quote: mrfrancks

Given what you are describing, it is really surprising that Borgata would take such action even if your were counting. An occasional 20:1 spread (even if it was coincident with a high count) is not going to beat that game (and they know that). A top bet of $500 and a top win of $5000 should not have put you on their radar. If you're really interested in getting this reversed I would recommend sending a letter to the CEO of Borgata laying out your case in a firm and businesslike manner. Don't disparage them but don't grovel either. Emphasize your long history of play. Ask to have your comps restored and your status and offers reinstated. I would suggest sending the letter using FedEx or some other overnight delivery service. That will make sure that it gets noticed and responded to promptly.

I have done this in the past when I have had issues with a casino and have always gotten positive results. Good Luck.

thanks for the suggestions mrfranks, definitely considering that as an option.

Quote: zoobrew

For all the people telling you to move on, I guess they are okay with being be banned from the Ritz and now finding Holiday Inn as an acceptable replacement.

haha yea that definitely is a good analogy. Maybe I can find at least a Marriott as a possible replacement then lol

Quote: NokTang

I'm sure they will dig out the video records and review them. Face it, he/she's small player they caught on to and are making an example of. You, said business, can only do this when times are good. Borgata gets so much free good publicity they I'm sure like I say will really be inclined to go back and look at video of a small black jack player. They have considered the fact they might lose him as a customer, and don't care.

The thing I am not sure about is their review process, do they have a bunch of entry level surveillance guys trying to look good to upper management by saying hey we caught x number of guys this month for you. Or do they have a thorough veteran team that really truly investigates a player before they make the decision. Borgata seems to be doing well and they probably figure they have plenty of people to take my place anyway. I also wonder how many "skilled players" they discover on a weekly/monthly basis.

Quote: AxelWolf

I like the fact that you explained how you found this site. It sounds like you read enough of it to know, if you hadn't explained that part someone might assume you were someone else posing under a new name.

I'm surprised the casinos actually admit they target skilled players anymore. That's very bad PR.

You can talk to a host, but it's rare
management will ever change their minds.

I have only seen a casino derision like this get reversed a few times in 15 years. Even then, they almost always leave some kind of notes in the computer. Even if you unlock your old earned comps, future ones are usually blacklisted and you get no mailed.

You're not an AP so it shouldn't bother you much. Find a new place and rebuild comps. Sometimes casinos they give extra to new members.

Yea the forum crowd on any site can be rough if you don't show that you at least attempted to research a little yourself. Didn't want people to start posting old thread links and ask why I didn't use the search button lol, so figured I laid out everything I could first and hope for the best haha. Everyone has been helpful so far, so that's good.

I guess if I can't go back to Borgata, will just have to play elsewhere unless they shared their info with other properties.

Quote: TedM

Yea the forum crowd on any site can be rough if you don't show that you at least attempted to research a little yourself. Didn't want people to start posting old thread links and ask why I didn't use the search button lol, so figured I laid out everything I could first and hope for the best haha. Everyone has been helpful so far, so that's good.

I guess if I can't go back to Borgata, will just have to play elsewhere unless they shared their info with other properties.

Actually it could help if they shared your info. Perhaps then a qualified pit person who knows how to count and what to watch for would take a closer look at your play and see you are not counting. They would then probably welcome your play with open arms and comps.

Quote: TedM

Yea the forum crowd on any site can be rough if you don't show that you at least attempted to research a little yourself. Didn't want people to start posting old thread links and ask why I didn't use the search button lol, so figured I laid out everything I could first and hope for the best haha. Everyone has been helpful so far, so that's good.

I guess if I can't go back to Borgata, will just have to play elsewhere unless they shared their info with other properties.

if you didn't post the lemieux part at the end I was going to say something like Mario is that you? or Can I still get the $10 buffet?

Good luck getting it resolved. I don't think anyone ever gets a casino decision reversed.

I didn't read your whole post, but I read enough. I think your goose is cooked.

What does it hurt if he does write the letter, say his play is an open book, and he's been a good customer who would like to return to that status? I think there's at least a chance the Borgata would be responsive. The usual pattern for a scorched AP, at least as you all report it, is that they don't openly come back to a store where they're burned. Just the fact that the OP is protesting the decision as a rated player should say something to the Borg about his intentions and differentiate him from a playah. My opinion only, not based on personal experience.

Does it hurt to write a letter? Of course not, and sending it fed ex, or better registered mail. Return receipt, will increase the odds of somebody with pull looking at it. But I doubt very much anything will change. For what it's worth Borgata is the only casino in AC that has ever recognized me as a counter. That's why I don't go there anymore. It was very early in my counting career and I wasn't spreading that much. But they flat bet me.

Quote: TedM

thanks surrender88s, I was contemplating emailing or writing a formal letter. They have my win/loss #s from 2012,2013,1014 still available on their site and I was up in 2012, down in 2013 and up in 2014, all for around the same amount. But I know I had some brutal years before that where I was probably definitely down for a couple years in a row.

No disrespect to you, but I very much doubt that they will even respond to a letter. They don't want to get into a correspondence back and forth and keep abreast of the issues involved.

If you send a letter and get no response and call them, I'll bet all they will tell you is it's a marketing decision. Period, end of story. They don't need your business and they aren't going to spend employee and management time haggling and explaining their decisions to you. If there were ever any legal action taken by you they are not going to have correspondence with you that could be used against them. That's why when people are backed off they will not explain to you why they took such action. And if someone gets backed off and trys to correspond in order to get it reversed, they will be ignored.

Quote: TedM

thanks surrender88s, I was contemplating emailing or writing a formal letter. They have my win/loss #s from 2012,2013,1014 still available on their site and I was up in 2012, down in 2013 and up in 2014, all for around the same amount. But I know I had some brutal years before that where I was probably definitely down for a couple years in a row.

Hi, TedM. Try contacting the Wizard of Odds. He writes a column for Atlantic County Magazine, the last of which can be found on page 23 of the April 17th issue. You can read it online. Your problem may be too hot to handle for a magazine that makes money from casinos but you never know. Perhaps the Wizard could do something behind the scenes or steer you in the right direction.

As far as your plight, been there done that many times. The B is the only major casino that I know of that automatically restricts betting to those who do not present a player's card. I know people who use cards under different names to get around it.

I hope revel or any other casino which could compete with borgata open soon. The place is out of control, players are constantly harassed, accused of things they never did. Any casino might give you 24 hour cool off period, borgata bans you for life. Players spoiled the place. I hope someone will create a tough competition for these people to make'em have a little respect for their customers.

Management's decision to limit a player's action is final and not made on a whim.
They don't make those kind of decisions without certainty; your play history was reviewed and analyzed.
The reason you were limited is because you aren't profitable to them, whether you're a counter or not is not the point.

My advice is to take your business elsewhere and don't give them the satisfaction of a letter.
They won't welcome you with open arms and allow you to win from them anymore, unless it's through a game other than blackjack or if you follow their rules (flat betted, playing CSM only, etc).

Exactly.

Ted - you're looking at this the wrong way. Why would you even consider going back there? They just slapped you in the face, stole (comps) from you, and told you you're worthless to them because they aren't making enough money from you. Why would you even consider patronizing them again?

Tell all your friend who play what happened. You all should take your business elsewhere.

Quote: TedM

I was still confused about this and looked up skilled player which led me to advantage playing, card counting, and this forum. I do not count cards or do anything to gain an advantage. I usually go to the no mid shoe entry pit at Borgata and go to the $25 tables... once I get to $500 a hand range is where I max out and I only play one hand. Could it be that on a recent session when I was running good they figured I was counting. If they hired a team of people to root out card counters, they are not doing a good job because I am not a card counter.
I have a host who I reached out to and he said this was out of his hands and could not do anything. It just sucks...

You are not the first person who has been falsely accused of counting cards. The fact that you spread your bet from 1 to 20 units, played pretty good basic strategy, and were winning (or not losing enough) was enough to get you "convicted" of the "crime" of counting cards. Unfortunately there is no appeals process. I would recommend that you actually learn how to count cards! At the stakes you play at, you should be able to afford good training software (eg Casino Verite) and time to train.
If you don't want to learn to count cards, then you have to either accept flat betting and no comps, or "retire" from Blackjack.

Quote: TedM

The thing I am not sure about is their review process, do they have a bunch of entry level surveillance guys trying to look good to upper management by saying hey we caught x number of guys this month for you. Or do they have a thorough veteran team that really truly investigates a player before they make the decision. Borgata seems to be doing well and they probably figure they have plenty of people to take my place anyway. I also wonder how many "skilled players" they discover on a weekly/monthly basis.

I'm one of them. They just recently froze my comp account. I spoke with a table games shift supervisor, and they said:

"you have been identified as a "skilled player" and as a "business decision" we decided to take away your comps, and you can no longer receive comps. You can still play blackjack, but have to play only one spot and cannot bet more than 10X the table minimum."

I argued the point to her, that I give the casino a lot of poker play, and a good percentage of my comp dollars are through poker play, so why am I getting that taken away? She stated: "sorry its a management decision. She said: "you can try to talk to the poker host, and have those comps dollars reinstated, but , most likely it won't happen, your not the first person that this has happened to."

I spoke with the poker host "Mable", she said she has to speak to her boss and will get back to me. Haven't heard anything, it's been a week.

Quote: 1BB

Hi, TedM. Try contacting the Wizard of Odds. He writes a column for Atlantic County Magazine, the last of which can be found on page 23 of the April 17th issue. You can read it online. Your problem may be too hot to handle for a magazine that makes money from casinos but you never know. Perhaps the Wizard could do something behind the scenes or steer you in the right direction.

As far as your plight, been there done that many times. The B is the only major casino that I know of that automatically restricts betting to those who do not present a player's card. I know people who use cards under different names to get around it.

Not just the Borgtoa that caps your bet without a players card, in AC,:

-Borgota: no players card = 1 spot, 10X table min
-Golden Nugget: no players card = 1 spot $100 max bet (regardless of table min).
-Bally's: no players card = (depending on pit) 1 spot, $100 max bet or, 1 spot table max.
-Caesars: no players card = 1 spot $1,000 max bet
-Harah's: no players card = 1 spot table max

-Taj: no players card = no restrictions, (but probably will be observing your play more than a rated player, especially once those big bets come out)

Not sure about: Resorts and Trop (as I always played rated there)

Quote: stabworld

Not just the Borgtoa that caps your bet without a players card, in AC,:

-Borgota: no players card = 1 spot, 10X table min
-Golden Nugget: no players card = 1 spot $100 max bet (regardless of table min).
-Bally's: no players card = (depending on pit) 1 spot, $100 max bet or, 1 spot table max.
-Caesars: no players card = 1 spot $1,000 max bet
-Harah's: no players card = 1 spot table max

-Taj: no players card = no restrictions, (but probably will be observing your play more than a rated player, especially once those big bets come out)

Not sure about: Resorts and Trop (as I always played rated there)

I thought that these player's cards were supposed to be an "optional gift" from the casinos and not a "mandatory requirement" to play there! So you're saying that if I walk into the Golden Nugget with $200 and want to go all or nothing on one hand, I CAN'T unless I spend 20 minutes signing up for a damn player's card!? WTF!? (Wow! That's Funny!)
Fortunately, other businesses haven't (yet) become this paranoid about their customers. However, more and more department and grocery stores are offering points programs. These programs allow the stores to discriminate against customers and give discounts to only their "preferred" customers. People who purchase "unprofitable" items may see their points wiped out. One trend that I have noticed at all stores is a requirement to provide ID to get a refund, even with a receipt! Officially, it's to protect the store from "fraud", but I wonder how many people are trying to scam stores out of a $4.00 package of gum!
Stores still offer items on sale to people who don't have points cards, but I wonder how long it will be before stores make these points cards mandatory to receive any kind of discount. "Sir, you're welcome to shop here, but unless I see some ID you can't buy anything that's on sale."

Quote: nvr55xx

I thought that these player's cards were supposed to be an "optional gift" from the casinos and not a "mandatory requirement" to play there! So you're saying that if I walk into the Golden Nugget with $200 and want to go all or nothing on one hand, I CAN'T unless I spend 20 minutes signing up for a damn player's card!? WTF!? (Wow! That's Funny!)
Fortunately, other businesses haven't (yet) become this paranoid about their customers. However, more and more department and grocery stores are offering points programs. These programs allow the stores to discriminate against customers and give discounts to only their "preferred" customers. People who purchase "unprofitable" items may see their points wiped out. One trend that I have noticed at all stores is a requirement to provide ID to get a refund, even with a receipt! Officially, it's to protect the store from "fraud", but I wonder how many people are trying to scam stores out of a $4.00 package of gum!
Stores still offer items on sale to people who don't have points cards, but I wonder how long it will be before stores make these points cards mandatory to receive any kind of discount. "Sir, you're welcome to shop here, but unless I see some ID you can't buy anything that's on sale."

They certainly do that, here at my local supermarkets, and have been doing it for years. No store card = you can't get the item that's on sale at the sale price.

Quote: stabworld

Quote: nvr55xx

I thought that these player's cards were supposed to be an "optional gift" from the casinos and not a "mandatory requirement" to play there! So you're saying that if I walk into the Golden Nugget with $200 and want to go all or nothing on one hand, I CAN'T unless I spend 20 minutes signing up for a damn player's card!? WTF!? (Wow! That's Funny!)
Fortunately, other businesses haven't (yet) become this paranoid about their customers. However, more and more department and grocery stores are offering points programs. These programs allow the stores to discriminate against customers and give discounts to only their "preferred" customers. People who purchase "unprofitable" items may see their points wiped out. One trend that I have noticed at all stores is a requirement to provide ID to get a refund, even with a receipt! Officially, it's to protect the store from "fraud", but I wonder how many people are trying to scam stores out of a $4.00 package of gum!
Stores still offer items on sale to people who don't have points cards, but I wonder how long it will be before stores make these points cards mandatory to receive any kind of discount. "Sir, you're welcome to shop here, but unless I see some ID you can't buy anything that's on sale."

They certainly do that, here at my local supermarkets, and have been doing it for years. No store card = you can't get the item that's on sale at the sale price.

Supermarket cashiers always seem to have a card in their pocket and are willing to swipe it for those of us who don't have one. Positive EV for them or their family no doubt.

Quote: stabworld

They certainly do that, here at my local supermarkets, and have been doing it for years. No store card = you can't get the item that's on sale at the sale price.

If you don't mind me asking, what supermarket do you shop at? Have you had a problem being suspected of being an "advantage shopper"? I figured that corporations and "big data" would eventually get to that point; I didn't think that we were at that point now! Have you known people that have been banned from stores for noncriminal, but nonetheless undesired, activities? WTF?! (Were They Frustrated?)

Oh man that sucks. Do you count cards though? I actually don't so that is why I was more upset and confused about them identifying me as one. I guess let us know if you hear back from them about it.

Quote: beachbumbabs

What does it hurt if he does write the letter, say his play is an open book, and he's been a good customer who would like to return to that status? I think there's at least a chance the Borgata would be responsive. The usual pattern for a scorched AP, at least as you all report it, is that they don't openly come back to a store where they're burned. Just the fact that the OP is protesting the decision as a rated player should say something to the Borg about his intentions and differentiate him from a playah. My opinion only, not based on personal experience.

I agree with you BB, as it's no big effort on his part to mail a registered letter to be signed, with no embellishments, asking why and if his earned comps and standing could be returned if the Casino would research it he believes he is innocent. It's not the speculation whether the casino will do anything. It's that he made an honest effort and should now be on record of such action. It is never wrong or not worth the effort to always respond in as professional business like way to actions thought to be unfair. I think it's disingenuous to suggest people don't try. I hope he did.

I may be wrong but things starting to smell fishy

Quote: nvr55xx

If you don't mind me asking, what supermarket do you shop at? Have you had a problem being suspected of being an "advantage shopper"? I figured that corporations and "big data" would eventually get to that point; I didn't think that we were at that point now! Have you known people that have been banned from stores for noncriminal, but nonetheless undesired, activities? WTF?! (Were They Frustrated?)

I once got backed off by my local 711 for too many times with deposit slurpee cups.