My Casino Teaches Their Dealers a Fake Basic Strategy
This place, which I don't care to name, but some of you will probably figure it out right quick, hires young, YOUNG dealers.
This is a good thing, b/c they are generally happy to have a pretty great job for their age, and aren't bitter and pissed off like most dealers over 35, who are sick of gamblers, and let's admit it, we are a pretty despicable lot.
I have discovered that several of these dealers do not know basic strategy. The amount of misinformation that they transmit is breathtaking.
Such as: "The casinos wrote the book", i.e. basic strategy. As in the casinos devised basic strategy. Says me, "Uhh...that's not correct.."
"The house has a 7% advantage".
"12 v. 3 is only a hit on double deck"
"4-4 against 4 is a split."
After some digging, I figured out why! The casino is training them with a fake basic strategy card. I figured this out when discussing 16v. 10, and a very smart, very cerebral young woman insisting that surrender was only appropriate on the double deck game, NOT on six deck.
After some polite, but pointed back and forth, she whips off her strategy card around her neck, and sure enough, that's what her company basic strategy card said. Suddenly, it all became clear.
As we can see with this casino, thinking they know it - even if they know it like an encyclopedia - just runs into arguments with players who may or may not know the best moves.
Quote: RipCovingtonThe casino is training them with a fake basic strategy card.
Can you get a copy? Or a photo?
Quote: RipCovington"The house has a 7% advantage".
I'm all for the PB's believing this one if that's how they are going to rate my play! :)
1) With the game of blackjack being beatable with counting, you don't want your low level employees knowing the proper move to make in all scenarios, effectively providing a classroom for them to learn how to beat the game and
2) You want them to be able to give some less than stellar advice with conviction to customers if asked
Quote: JoemanHowever...
I'm all for the PB's believing this one if that's how they are going to rate my play! :)
Very true! I have a feeling their own strategy is better than 7% edge too, but probably someone screwed up that part of the math as well. Unless the management got the insurance house edge confused with the edge for the whole game maybe?
Quote: RSDo they offer surrender on all 6 deck games?
Yes.
Quote: odiousgambitI suspect the attitude most casinos have is "why would we want our dealers to know Basic Strategy?" and just leave it at that.
As we can see with this casino, thinking they know it - even if they know it like an encyclopedia - just runs into arguments with players who may or may not know the best moves.
Oh, it's definitely to confuse and derail proper play. Once I was gambling with a very old gentleman who had brought in his own basic strategy card. The PB came over and apologetically told him that he could not have it on the table. He could hold it in his hand, but not place the card on the table.
Quote: DieterCan you get a copy? Or a photo?
Dieter, I will try. There a few dealers that I have a great vibe with. I am just not sure how to go about this without arousing all manner of heat. I don't think dealers can hand players stuff, and pictures are verboten. We are allowed to "fist bump" the dealer with wins, but no handshakes, etc. The PB's come over and shake my hand, though, but I don't think hitting one of them up for one of their "special" strategy cards is such a great notion, lol..
They might tell me that they have cards available in the gift shop, but who's to say it is the card that the dealer's are working from? I eyeballed the card. It definitely had "H" all the way across on 16, no surrender.
Quote: JoemanI agree, sad, but not unexpected, that the casinos continue to deceive their clientele. However...
I'm all for the PB's believing this one if that's how they are going to rate my play! :)
Well, this casino makes a killing on "lottery" gamblers and sucker bets. The blackjack hand IS the side bet for this joint, as I daresay over half the games are blackjack variants, and all the low limit games are crammed with Perfect Pairs, buster bets, etc.
So, their overall advantage may be 7%, but that's not what this young dealer was saying. He was talking about blackjack. I should be surprised that some of these dealers don't do more independent research, but in our creative information age, nothing surprises me anymore...
Honestly, it doesn't bother me that much. Because I'm playing a 1% advantage game, and all the other players, rules confusion, etc. are subsidizing their very liberal rules for me. And this place rakes in the cash. Healthy profits doesn't cover it.
Quote: Gabes22This doesn't surprise me on a couple of levels
1) With the game of blackjack being beatable with counting, you don't want your low level employees knowing the proper move to make in all scenarios, effectively providing a classroom for them to learn how to beat the game and
2) You want them to be able to give some less than stellar advice with conviction to customers if asked
This, Gabes. This, exactly.
Quote: MintyI thought this type of misinformation was the norm rather than the exception. Maybe I'm wrong though. Sometimes I wonder how things would be different if casinos tried a different approach. A more collaborative attempt than a deceptive one. If casinos had the correct strategy cards maybe people would feel more trusting of them and be willing to gamble more money or more frequently? On the other hand, the loss due to proper play could override that. It's hard to say, but an interesting thought experiment.
Minty, pretty sure the casinos know what they are doing. If everybody played BS, then BJ might go the way of the dinosaur. As it is, 3-2 single deck going away, S17 going away, sucker games are taking over the pits.
They have one objective: to reach into your wallet, and remove its contents! They will be nice, smile, they will buy your dinner, or a room. But they are not going to happily teach you how to clean out their chip tray.
Casinos mop up on bad gamblers. I get challenged on BS plays by unsophisticated gamblers all the damn time. I'm using the word "unsophisticated" as a euphemism for something less polite. Misinformation from fellow players? Expected.
Misinformation from dealers? Caught me off guard. And what threw me was not that they obviously bright and sincere folks. (There is another "ghetto" casino that I sometimes frequent that has dealers that honestly just don't have a clue, for example..Big difference.)
Quote: RipCovingtonOh, it's definitely to confuse and derail proper play. Once I was gambling with a very old gentleman who had brought in his own basic strategy card. The PB came over and apologetically told him that he could not have it on the table. He could hold it in his hand, but not place the card on the table.
It apparently has happened that someone will try to keep a card or two out of the deck by hiding them under the strategy card, so that is the reason for that ... at least, that is what I've been told.
Quote: odiousgambitIt apparently has happened that someone will try to keep a card or two out of the deck by hiding them under the strategy card, so that is the reason for that ... at least, that is what I've been told.
How could you hide a card? Not saying it can't happen, I just don't see how it's possible at Blackjack.
The dealer hands everyone their first card, then their second.
She comes to you and you only have one card? You claim she missed you when dealing? Wouldn't that look suspicious?
I'm not a card mechanic so forgive my naivete.
Quote: darkozHow could you hide a card? Not saying it can't happen, I just don't see how it's possible at Blackjack.
The dealer hands everyone their first card, then their second.
She comes to you and you only have one card? You claim she missed you when dealing? Wouldn't that look suspicious?
I'm not a card mechanic so forgive my naivete.
I wouldn't know if this would be done while they are dealing, but perhaps ratholing an ace that was dealt to you in a 5 card hand or something like that before the dealer picks them up
Quote: RipCovingtonMinty, pretty sure the casinos know what they are doing. If everybody played BS, then BJ might go the way of the dinosaur. As it is, 3-2 single deck going away, S17 going away, sucker games are taking over the pits.
They have one objective: to reach into your wallet, and remove its contents! They will be nice, smile, they will buy your dinner, or a room. But they are not going to happily teach you how to clean out their chip tray.
Casinos mop up on bad gamblers. I get challenged on BS plays by unsophisticated gamblers all the damn time. I'm using the word "unsophisticated" as a euphemism for something less polite. Misinformation from fellow players? Expected.
Misinformation from dealers? Caught me off guard. And what threw me was not that they obviously bright and sincere folks. (There is another "ghetto" casino that I sometimes frequent that has dealers that honestly just don't have a clue, for example..Big difference.)
Yep this is right. They don't want smart gamblers. They may say they do, but they don't. I think sometimes that those of us who spend a lot of time in casinos lose sight of this basic fact. When they "comp" you it's not because they are nice, or loyal, or think you are a "good customer". It's because they want more of your money. That's it.
As to the dealer saying that BJ has a 7%HE. I wonder if they told her in dealer school that the house makes 7% on average on BJ. Which I'm sure they do. If you include the side bets. Most casinos hold % for BJ is between 10-15%, from the reports I've seen, so 7% would be too low really.
Quote: vendman1Yep this is right. They don't want smart gamblers. They may say they do, but they don't. I think sometimes that those of us who spend a lot of time in casinos lose sight of this basic fact. When they "comp" you it's not because they are nice, or loyal, or think you are a "good customer". It's because they want more of your money. That's it.
As to the dealer saying that BJ has a 7%HE. I wonder if they told her in dealer school that the house makes 7% on average on BJ. Which I'm sure they do. If you include the side bets. Most casinos hold % for BJ is between 10-15%, from the reports I've seen, so 7% would be too low really.
Hi vendman, this dealer was actually male. probably about 21, 22 years old. Cool guy, but he got visibly pissed when I started challenging some of his absurd assertions.
He started with the notion that the casino industry "wrote the book". I explained that this was simply not true, and why.
He then countered with that the blackjack house advantage was 7%, and that he had learned this in-house. At this point, I just shut my mouth, and kept my head down. Possibly he conflated overall advantage with blackjack specific advantage? Dunno.
OK, granted this guy was lost, but the 16v.10 young woman was sharp as a tack, and as intellectually impressive a dealer as I've seen. She was familiar with Wizard of Odds, and I told her to cross check her card with the Wiz card. She was so sincere and so convinced, that I briefly thought to myself, "Is it possible that I have misunderstood this play for fifteen years now?" LOL>.
Quote: vendman1Yep this is right. They don't want smart gamblers. They may say they do, but they don't. I think sometimes that those of us who spend a lot of time in casinos lose sight of this basic fact. When they "comp" you it's not because they are nice, or loyal, or think you are a "good customer". It's because they want more of your money. That's it.
As to the dealer saying that BJ has a 7%HE. I wonder if they told her in dealer school that the house makes 7% on average on BJ. Which I'm sure they do. If you include the side bets. Most casinos hold % for BJ is between 10-15%, from the reports I've seen, so 7% would be too low really.
Is that really any different than any other business model? I go to this one restaurant frequently in my area, and they routinely give me an appetizer or round of drink or a dessert on the house (sometimes all three) all with the expectation that we routinely come back there. Many companies have loyalty programs (spend X amount and get X amount off as a gift card or off your next bill) or whatever you wish to call it. All of it is on the basis of bringing you back with regularity
Quote: vendman1Yep this is right. They don't want smart gamblers. They may say they do, but they don't. I think sometimes that those of us who spend a lot of time in casinos lose sight of this basic fact. When they "comp" you it's not because they are nice, or loyal, or think you are a "good customer". It's because they want more of your money. That's it.
As to the dealer saying that BJ has a 7%HE. I wonder if they told her in dealer school that the house makes 7% on average on BJ. Which I'm sure they do. If you include the side bets. Most casinos hold % for BJ is between 10-15%, from the reports I've seen, so 7% would be too low really.
Agreed, I just like to believe that there is some good in them. Overly optimistic? Probably. A pit boss was recently telling me to make a side bet saying "look, from the house perspective I should be telling you not to make that bet." Mind games. I do have to admit, his sly approach was a good one and he's a smart guy!
Quote: RipCovingtonHi vendman, this dealer was actually male. probably about 21, 22 years old. Cool guy, but he got visibly pissed when I started challenging some of his absurd assertions.
He started with the notion that the casino industry "wrote the book". I explained that this was simply not true, and why.
He then countered with that the blackjack house advantage was 7%, and that he had learned this in-house. At this point, I just shut my mouth, and kept my head down. Possibly he conflated overall advantage with blackjack specific advantage? Dunno.
OK, granted this guy was lost, but the 16v.10 young woman was sharp as a tack, and as intellectually impressive a dealer as I've seen. She was familiar with Wizard of Odds, and I told her to cross check her card with the Wiz card. She was so sincere and so convinced, that I briefly thought to myself, "Is it possible that I have misunderstood this play for fifteen years now?" LOL>.
That's funny that you doubted yourself for a second. Once in a while I will play with someone so convinced they are playing it right (when they are not) that it will make me double check. Usually it's the difference between the strategy of H17 vs. S17 or surrender or something. They are usually playing the correct strategy for the wrong game.
Quote: RipCovington
They might tell me that they have cards available in the gift shop, but who's to say it is the card that the dealer's are working from? I eyeballed the card. It definitely had "H" all the way across on 16, no surrender.
I have a blackjack strategy card from a Vegas gift shop. Although it doesn't state it, the card is for an S17 game. The card doesn't have any entries for surrender, but it does list them as a footnote. If you follow the link, you can see that the blackjack card has text on the right. This is where it lists info about surrendering.
Strategy Card
At the casino I play at the most, they only offer H17 and they offer surrender on their 6 deck shoe games. The last time I was there, the pb gave me a hard time for surrendering and told me that the house "loves" it when players surrender.
Quote: Gabes22Is that really any different than any other business model? I go to this one restaurant frequently in my area, and they routinely give me an appetizer or round of drink or a dessert on the house (sometimes all three) all with the expectation that we routinely come back there. Many companies have loyalty programs (spend X amount and get X amount off as a gift card or off your next bill) or whatever you wish to call it. All of it is on the basis of bringing you back with regularity
No it's not different than any other business. I give my customers free crap all the time to keep them happy too. I also wasn't trying to imply that the casinos were doing anything wrong. I just think sometimes maybe we all get caught up in the excitement or whatever; and forget that the reason they built all those fancy buildings was to take your money.
Quote: RipCovingtonDieter, I will try. There a few dealers that I have a great vibe with. I am just not sure how to go about this without arousing all manner of heat.
1. Play dumb.
2. Ask the floor "Hey, any chance I can get one of those cards? I wanna learn me how to play right an' win some money!" (Use whatever accent and phrasing makes you sound convincingly dumb.)
3. Ta-da.
You may need to enlist a friend / acquaintance / random slot player for assistance with steps 1 and 2, if the floor knows you play blackjack. You might get better results if you say that you're teaching someone how to play, and would like to teach them the right basic strategy...
... this is not the correct strategy, no matter what game you're playing.
From what I understand, some casinos get these (or similarly bad) charts printed up as the premium cards in their decks, and gladly give them away.
As for "how could you hide a card under...", don't try and figure it out, just try to avoid the appearance of possible cheating. You should only have cheques, cash, drinks, and ashtrays directly on the table.
At one casino I play at, the card sold there is all correct except for D across the row for 11. According to WoO appendix 9, for a 6 deck game, if you doubled on 2,9(worst 11 there is) rather than hit, it's still a +EV play where you make 0.121517 doubling, compared to 0.147155 hitting.
Quote: RedJackAt a very quick glance, only the A7 row is wrong (...) Are you sure that is not simply a matter of careless typos for the A7 row, and many would recommend doubling 11 vs A anyway and it's probably not a costly move.
The particular house that offers this erroneous guide only has H17 games to go with them. D 11 v A is correct for H17.
Is there any set of rules that this strategy is correct for? (My research says no, but...)
