What would you do?

I was playing BlackJack at Mohegan Sun in PA on Sunday, and ran into the following situation.

Early Sunday afternoon, a couple of $10 tables open, and some empty $15 tables. My wife and I step up to a $10 non smoking table, with one gentleman playing 2 spots at 3rd base, and another gent with cash laying on the table waiting in middle position. Wife and I take seats 1 and 2, and get our money out. I tell my wife we will wait to buy in, since it was obvious to me that 3rd base must have asked the other gent to wait.

Sure enough, before our seats have been pulled out, 3rd base asks if we would mind waiting to the end of the shoe. I said we had already planned on doing so. As I settle in, I realize this is the start of a 6 deck shoe. He can't be more than 6 or 7 hands into the shoe. He is betting anywhere from $50 to $400 on 2 spots, so I figure perhaps he is counting and maybe has another angle. So we sit and watch. Now I am not a counter, but I pay attention to the cards coming out, and I find it hard to believe the count warranted some of the basic strategy plays that he was doing incorrectly, especially early into the shoe.

Not surprisingly he soon loses most of the chips in front of him, about halfway through the shoe. He then proceeds to pull more $500 chips out of his pocket to continue his play in the shoe. By now, I can see he is probably not a counter, and does not seem to have any AP play. And he does not adhere to BS either.

At this point, I politely object to his bringing in more bankroll while we continue to watch his private game. There are open $15 tables, and even more $25 in the high limit room. He insists we wait to the end of the shoe. I know I could have ignored him and entered the game, but he is most likely saving me money by not letting me play, so I'm not really upset.

My question is, Was he being a jerk by wanting to play a complete 6 deck shoe by himself for big money, on the only open $10 table, or was I being a jerk for wanting him to let us play, since he did not appear to have any AP going on?

What would you have done?

PS. The pit was aware of what was happening, but he chose to not approach the table. I don't blame him. That guy was giving them five times more action than the 3 of us waiting would have done in total.



On a side note, the first BJ table my wife and I played at, 10 aces came out in the first 3 rounds of hands (4 players). When it came shuffle time, I told my wife to keep an eye on the bottom 1/2" of cards, because of the large number of aces in that block. Unfortunately, the gent with the cut card was not so observant, and his cut sent those cards to the back of the deck, behind the end of shoe card. I was counting the aces, and sure enough, only 11 aces came out the next shoe. That meant 13 aces were in that last inch or so of cards that were not dealt. Sure wish I could have cut that deck!

once I realized he wasn't on a run I would have bet and told him 'I didn't come to the casino to watch you play bj horribly."

Mid-shoe entry is often not permitted at casinos. I believe that is the case at Mohegan Sun Connecticut, but I don't know about their PA casino. I would have waited. I don't see why you took issue with more buy in, it's not a poker game.

Mid shoe is allowed at MS in PA, at least on the 6 deck shoes I was playing.
My objection was not really about the new money being added. That was just a good point to ask into the game, since it was obvious by then that he was not APing, and he wasn't even playing perfect BS.

My guess is he didn't want his outcomes to be affected by another player's "incorrect" play, which in my opinion, made him nothing more than a ploppie with money.

After he added more chips, the middle player got disgusted and left. My wife and I waited until the end of the shoe. 3rd base stayed and played, but dropped his bets to two spots of $25 each. I printed the BS card from WOO for the 6 deck S17 game, so my play was right every time ;-)

you thought correctly raleighcraps.

Quote: RaleighCraps

... My guess is he didn't want his outcomes to be affected by another player's "incorrect" play, which in my opinion, made him nothing more than a ploppie with money. ...

I think your assessment is correct. Trying to understand his mindset isn't worth your time and will only hurt your head. Any interaction with him is NOT worth your time. I would have just enjoyed the 20 minutes or so it took to finish the shoe and watched the show.

Quote: RaleighCraps

...After he added more chips, the middle player got disgusted and left. My wife and I waited until the end of the shoe. 3rd base stayed and played, but dropped his bets to two spots of $25 each. I printed the BS card from WOO for the 6 deck S17 game, so my play was right every time ;-)

Well done on using the BS card. I came up with my moniker for this site when I first started playing using the WoO advice and BS.

Try to grow a thicker skin regarding the idiots you will encounter at tables, but don't take any crap.

Quote: RaleighCraps

What would you have done?

I would have counted and if the true count went better than +2 I would have started playing

-----

If I'm playing and someone sits down and asks me if I they should wait, I'll tell them "wait until the next shuffle." If I'm playing and someone sits down and doesn't ask, I'll simply tell them "Good luck." It's not my place to tell people how they will or will not spend their money and it's not the place of other players to tell me what I'm going to do with my money.

Of course, if you're not counting you're better off the less you play, so waiting should be seen as a benefit to you

Quote: RaleighCraps

I was playing BlackJack at Mohegan Sun in PA on Sunday, and ran into the following situation.

Early Sunday afternoon, a couple of $10 tables open, and some empty $15 tables. My wife and I step up to a $10 non smoking table, with one gentleman playing 2 spots at 3rd base, and another gent with cash laying on the table waiting in middle position. Wife and I take seats 1 and 2, and get our money out. I tell my wife we will wait to buy in, since it was obvious to me that 3rd base must have asked the other gent to wait.

Sure enough, before our seats have been pulled out, 3rd base asks if we would mind waiting to the end of the shoe. I said we had already planned on doing so. As I settle in, I realize this is the start of a 6 deck shoe. He can't be more than 6 or 7 hands into the shoe. He is betting anywhere from $50 to $400 on 2 spots, so I figure perhaps he is counting and maybe has another angle. So we sit and watch. Now I am not a counter, but I pay attention to the cards coming out, and I find it hard to believe the count warranted some of the basic strategy plays that he was doing incorrectly, especially early into the shoe.

Not surprisingly he soon loses most of the chips in front of him, about halfway through the shoe. He then proceeds to pull more $500 chips out of his pocket to continue his play in the shoe. By now, I can see he is probably not a counter, and does not seem to have any AP play. And he does not adhere to BS either.

At this point, I politely object to his bringing in more bankroll while we continue to watch his private game. There are open $15 tables, and even more $25 in the high limit room. He insists we wait to the end of the shoe. I know I could have ignored him and entered the game, but he is most likely saving me money by not letting me play, so I'm not really upset.

My question is, Was he being a jerk by wanting to play a complete 6 deck shoe by himself for big money, on the only open $10 table, or was I being a jerk for wanting him to let us play, since he did not appear to have any AP going on?

What would you have done?

PS. The pit was aware of what was happening, but he chose to not approach the table. I don't blame him. That guy was giving them five times more action than the 3 of us waiting would have done in total.



On a side note, the first BJ table my wife and I played at, 10 aces came out in the first 3 rounds of hands (4 players). When it came shuffle time, I told my wife to keep an eye on the bottom 1/2" of cards, because of the large number of aces in that block. Unfortunately, the gent with the cut card was not so observant, and his cut sent those cards to the back of the deck, behind the end of shoe card. I was counting the aces, and sure enough, only 11 aces came out the next shoe. That meant 13 aces were in that last inch or so of cards that were not dealt. Sure wish I could have cut that deck!

He wasn't necessarily being a jerk, he was probably just superstitious. Whatever you decided to do would have been fine, whether you entered immediately, waited a couple of hands or complied as you did. It comes down to your comfort level. You are under no obligation to listen to anyone. For the non counter/average player, waiting a couple of hands would have been extremely generous given the new shoe.

If I'm back counting, I'm going in when it's time. There aren't enough of these opportunities in shoe games. With credit to 21forme and Norm: "There are other players at the table"?

The shuffle at the Connecticut Mohegan Sun requires the dealer to plug the unused cards into the discards. The cards are taken out of the shoe, divided into four piles and each pile is inserted into a different place in the discard rack before the shuffle commences. Isn't that done in PA? That would make those aces difficult to track. I'm not saying impossible but very difficult for the average player.

two things:

*can someone describe the process in which cards get returned and there isn't really a shuffle in a shoe? [I assume, since there is a cut card]

*gotta put you on the spot, RC: we need a Craps sessions report sir!

It's funny, in 25 years of playing bkackjack I can't remember one situation where someone has asked me to please wait until the shuffle to start play.

That said, how someone asks me would be important to my decision.

Honestly, I think that many people that might ask you to wait until the shuffle to enter the game are really just looking for trouble.

If this kind of situation is something you find irritating, then you should figure it out in your head. For instance, if you just started playing anyway and the guy who asked you to wait says something, you could say, "How does my playing in this shoe hurt you?" Then think of the possible answers a trouble maker would have and how you would respond to them. If the guy wins the first hand after you joined in you could say, "See, my joining in helped you!" (As you holdup your hand in anticipation of the high five he's going to give you. You can even pump your hand a little indicating that you are egar for his compliance.) That takes care of 1/2 of the possible objections. Or, you could say, "Don't worry, I'm not going to do anything to screw up your play. The key is to try and keep it friendly and avoid "fighting words".

Can I buy you a drink?
I'm feeling lucky right now, no offense.
Come on, let's win together.
See these other chairs at the table? They're for other players.
What if I told you to quit this shoe because I want to play right now alone?

Maybe not the best comebacks but you get the idea.

Like has been said, there are casinos out there that do not allow mid-shoe entry. When I sit down at a table, I, usually as a matter of courtesy so as to not slow up the game, just say, I will wait until the next shoe to play.

Quote: 1BB

...The shuffle at the Connecticut Mohegan Sun requires the dealer to plug the unused cards into the discards. The cards are taken out of the shoe, divided into four piles and each pile is inserted into a different place in the discard rack before the shuffle commences. Isn't that done in PA? That would make those aces difficult to track. I'm not saying impossible but very difficult for the average player.

Same shuffle procedure at MS in PA. This was the first table we played at, not the one with my 3rd base friend. It was the shuffle BEFORE that shoe that I was able to track. They had just opened the table, all new decks. Dealer shuffled the cards, and shoe number 1 started. There were 11 aces in the first 3 rounds that were dealt to the four players, roughly 36 cards, give or take a dozen. They were all in the very bottom of the discard pile. When the shoe ended, the dealer did as you described, putting the remaining shoe cards into 4 areas of the deck. But the dealer never got low enough to the bottom of the discard pile, so the block of aces was intact.
Then when the shuffle took place that part of the stack was all rifled at the same time, so the block was still pretty much together. Unfortunately, when the player placed the cut card, he ended up putting it just behind the block of aces, so they all went to the back of the shoe, and never got dealt.
Since it is obvious none of us were counting (backed up by our spreads of $10 - $20, although I did get to $75 a couple of times) I made an offhand comment, "Gee the back of that shoe must have had all the aces, hardly any came out". The dealer smiled at me and said, "yeah, I had noticed the same thing". That provoked a table discussion about how many aces were in a shoe and yeah it did seem like we only saw some of them. I didn't bother letting on that the exact number was 13 missing.

I know it doesn't matter. I could have cut the cards to have that block dealt out first, and the dealer could have gotten all the BJs. But it still would have been fun just to know I managed to cut into them.

It sounds like you handled the situation just about as best you could have, in all aspects... From patients, to courtesy, etc. To answer your question, if I were in that situation I would have used that as an opportunity to "back count" that table (while sitting at it). If the TC >= +2, I would wait for him to lose 1 hand and say something like "I'm feelin' lucky and the dealers got your number right now." If the count stayed negative I would have enjoyed watching the player whom told me not to play continue to play with his negative expectation.

I personally don't think it very polite to ask others to wait. In nearly a decade I've asked other players to wait maybe a few times when I wanted to bet a 2nd spot in a really hot count and there were no other spots. However, I usually oblige ploppies when they ask me to wait, at least for a couple hands. Like I said, as a counter this just gives me an excuse to sit there at the table, count, and not even have to play a dime unless the advantage is in my favor. As a non-counter, whenever you feel comfortable joining the game is when you should join, regardless of what anyone else says/wants.

Lastly, good job tracking those aces! You've got some AP in you to notice/remember/try to take advantage of it =). Perhaps you've learned the "cut card lean" from your experience? lol it's when you're tracking and you really want the cut card... You lean in over the table to make yourself more prominent to the dealer in hopes he'll give you the cut card. You could also politely suggest "Hey, cut thin to win" or wherever you needed it. Keep an eye out and perhaps on the next opportunity you'll get the cut card and see just how well you tracked them.

Quote: odiousgambit

two things:

*can someone describe the process in which cards get returned and there isn't really a shuffle in a shoe? [I assume, since there is a cut card]

*gotta put you on the spot, RC: we need a Craps sessions report sir!

1BB has a pretty good description. Once all the cards are in the discard pile, they pull them out, separate them into stacks, rotate half of the stacks, and rifle shuffle them into one giant stack. They then separate that stack and rifle shuffle the cards again.
This was an oddity. Having so many aces come out in the first 36 or so cards gave me an easy place to watch. It was at the very bottom of the discard pile, which meant I knew exactly where that block was as it entered the first rifle. The dealer took the whole block at once, so when the rifle got done, it was at the top of the pile, and now I knew they were somewhere in roughly 80 cards.
Not a very exact science, but in this case, I had good information.

I will do a trip report for the CRAPS play so as not to derail my own thread.

As a counter, if you know 1/2 of the aces are behind the shoe cut card, can you take advantage of that information, or does that make the shoe not worth playing, since there will be 1/2 as many chances to get a BJ ?

Quote: RaleighCraps

As a counter, if you know 1/2 of the aces are behind the shoe cut card, can you take advantage of that information, or does that make the shoe not worth playing, since there will be 1/2 as many chances to get a BJ ?

It makes that particular shoe not worth playing... However I would take a bathroom break or something, then attempt to track the aces through the next shuffle and get the cut card to put them in play at the beginning of the next shoe. If you have your first card Ace, you have a +51% EV on the hand. Like you said, the dealer would be just as likely to get them as well, but the difference is if you trade blackjacks back and forth with the dealer, you'll win =).

I think you handled it right Raleigh. The guy was being kind of a jerk. But what is the point in fighting with arguing with him. I would have maybe pointed out that he was getting killed and letting some other players in would be to his advantage (or he would think so anyway). But it would have been wasted breath. The guy is a jerk and not a very good BJ player. But those people keep the casino open for smart players. They usually go away pretty fast when they lose their money.

Example:
I was playing 3rd base at Horseshoe Baltimore the other day, and sometimes standing on 12 vs. dealer 2 or 3 up card, and sometimes hitting, based on the count. It happened 3 or 4 times. The guy playing across from me was down about $2500 and playing decent basic strategy, but with a few mistakes. He made lots of snide comments about how "I should play it the same way every time", and that " I was hurting the table". Normally I ignore stupidity from other gamblers, but this guy was being loud, berating me, and the dealer, and other players, so I decided to try and straighten him out. I explained to him that any play I make(or anyone else), is just as likely to help as hurt his cause, and pointed out several instances where this is happened. Needless to say it fell on deaf ears. He left mumbling to himself down like 4K. So there is some cosmic justice. I think every other player at the table won.

I have been asked by superstitious people to wait many times. I usually respect their requests. I can usually spot a counter and avoid them.
Most people will wait if you ask.

Some people really get pissed off when you bring in a match play. You will hear comments like, "Not this 1 hand coupon F*ing S***t again. Some guys will sit out until you leave and then bitch to the dealers after you walk away. I noticed middle aged women get particularly annoyed and couples are the absolute worst.

They especially get pissed if you win and walk immediately.

The younger collage kids always seem to perk up and ask where I got my match plays especially after winning.

I have had people suddenly remember they also have a funbook and offer it to me.

There are so many things I'd like to say when someone starts mouthing off at the table. I'm not one to shy away from controversy but my number one priority is avoiding attention from the pit. These petty arguments and associated nonsense can bring it quickly. It's been a while since I've been followed to my car. :-)

Quote: 1BB

There are so many things I'd like to say when someone starts mouthing off at the table. I'm not one to shy away from controversy but my number one priority is avoiding attention from the pit. These petty arguments and associated nonsense can bring it quickly. It's been a while since I've been followed to my car. :-)

Did she ask for $20? :)

Quote: aceofspades

Did she ask for $20? :)

Darn, I thought she was offering me $20. No wonder things went south. :-)

Strange. I routinely see people ask others to wait for the new shoe, but once they lose a few hands, they usually change their tune.

After a few losing hands, I'd have said "Are you sure you don't want me to play and mix this up for you?" But like others have said, why fight him? Especially when there are other tables if you get tired of waiting.

Quote: Deucekies

Strange. I routinely see people ask others to wait for the new shoe, but once they lose a few hands, they usually change their tune.

After a few losing hands, I'd have said "Are you sure you don't want me to play and mix this up for you?" But like others have said, why fight him? Especially when there are other tables if you get tired of waiting.

This was the only open $10 table, and he was playing WAY OVER that amount. He could have played at any table he wanted, and could have played alone at most any $25 table. That was why I was annoyed after a bit.

My writing may not have conveyed it, but there was no fight. I asked to join the game after he dug for more chips half way through the shoe. He wanted us to stay out. We acquiesced. At this point I felt he was being a jerk, but I did not say anything. I cheered his double downs that hit.
I would have been playing perfect BS, using the Wizard's chart for the game, but my wife wants to play by feel, and I knew the first time she did not hit a 16, against a dealer10, and he would probably berate her, if we chose to start playing. Thus it was best that we sat it out, while he was betting big. Personally I don't care who says what about my play, but I would not have remained silent about an attack on my wife's play.

In the end, he finished the shoe (losing about 3Gs if I counted right), and then bet $25s when we started playing. But he was still losing hands, even though the wife and I were winning, and that coupled with a few odd plays by my wife was enough to make him change tables after 2 more shoes.

I started this thread to see how many players would sit and watch, and it seems like most would. Although, I think the consensus among the counters would be to enter if the count went positive. Seems like that might draw some attention though, if he threw a fit, so that seems like it has a risk as well.

Quote: RaleighCraps

My writing may not have conveyed it, but there was no fight.

I'll clarify. When I say why fight him, I mean you were correct not to fight him.

And yes, the guy's being silly, and you're within your right to say screw him and jump in, but like you said, you might not like the results.

Quote: Deucekies

I'll clarify. When I say why fight him, I mean you were correct not to fight him.

And yes, the guy's being silly, and you're within your right to say screw him and jump in, but like you said, you might not like the results.

While I agree it is usually best to avoid situations that can lead to violence (after all, we are only around on this 'pale blue dot' for a fraction of time) but why is it the usually held belief on the boards that the person seeking to sit down and play has to submit to the person admonishing them to not join the table — as if their sitting at the table anoints them with some sort of god-like power to kick everyone's ass — how do you know that the person seeking to play wouldn't kick the ever-living **** out of the person already at the table?

Quote: RaleighCraps

I started this thread to see how many players would sit and watch, and it seems like most would.

In that case, here's my direct answer: Yeah, I'd sit and watch.

---

I don't play BJ much anymore, but when I did, if it was towards the end of the show, I would ask.

Additionally, if there was only one player, I'd ask if he minded the company.

One time, there were three guys playing together, towards the end of the shoe. I stepped up and before I could even ask, one of them asked me if I wouldn't mind waiting for the next shoe because they were on something of a rush. No problem, and yeah, they continued to win for those few hands. I don't know what would have happened if I had "disrupted the flow of the cards," but why look for trouble?

Quote: aceofspades

... why is it the usually held belief on the boards that the person seeking to sit down and play has to submit to the person admonishing them to not join the table?

Has to submit?

Hardly.

But it does fall under the category of "Common Curtesy." After all, they were there first.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

Has to submit?

Hardly.

But it does fall under the category of "Common Curtesy." After all, they were there first.

I was referring to this quote

Quote: Deucekies

I'll clarify. When I say why fight him, I mean you were correct not to fight him.

And yes, the guy's being silly, and you're within your right to say screw him and jump in, but like you said, you might not like the results.

Which is consistent with plenty of other quotes on this subject I have seen on the forums - the "you might not like the results" portion

Quote: aceofspades

Which is consistent with plenty of other quotes on this subject I have seen on the forums - the "you might not like the results" portion

I know when I play, I don't want a nasty vibe at the table. A player angry at me just for sitting down creates a nasty vibe. And if the player decides to make a scene, my experience is ruined even more.

If the player makes a scene, an AP would really have a problem on his hands, because an AP wants as little attention drawn to him as humanly possible, yes?

Quote: Deucekies

I know when I play, I don't want a nasty vibe at the table. A player angry at me just for sitting down creates a nasty vibe. And if the player decides to make a scene, my experience is ruined even more.

If the player makes a scene, an AP would really have a problem on his hands, because an AP wants as little attention drawn to him as humanly possible, yes?

I wholeheartedly agree that if it is an AP, the rules change.