Triple Down Promotion

going to head over to Mohegan Sun, just to clarify, should I play Spanish blackjack there or their regular 21 tables? What are the rules? I've never been to this place before. Also, just to confirm again, people are using the 1st chart posted by the Wizard "Triple Down", not the quadruple down? (I read the thread through, but just confirming for clarity's sake)

Quote: grifter99

going to head over to Mohegan Sun, just to clarify, should I play Spanish blackjack there or their regular 21 tables? What are the rules? I've never been to this place before. Also, just to confirm again, people are using the 1st chart posted by the Wizard "Triple Down", not the quadruple down? (I read the thread through, but just confirming for clarity's sake)

use the triple down strategy for hard and soft hands only. Use the standard chart (4+ decks, S17, DAS) for splitting decisions. After 9am this morning tripling down was allowed on first two cards only.

I arrived at MS at 5:30 this morning. It looked like any other Thursday. Checked the Sky and Wind Casinos then sat at a $10 table table in the Earth. I was the only player at the table and I told the dealer I wouldn't start playing until 6:00. We had a nice chat until then.

I could have had a seat at any table I wanted. I was joined by 3 fairly knowledgeable players and the 4 of us took the 6 spots at the table. The dealers were fast and the decision making was as well yielding us a good 80 hands per hour. They all had the Wizard's Triple Down Strategy with them although they had no idea who the Wizard of Odds was. Unfortunately, they used it sporadically and sometimes played hunches causing them to loose black chips at an alarming rate. It seemed like chaos at times in the pits. Players at some tables were allowed to triple down over the limit and some were not. Ditto for tripling after splitting.

At around 9:00am we were informed that there would be no more tripling after splitting. About an hour later, it was reinstated. There was no problem getting a seat at 11:00 however that's when it started getting busy. They opened more tables at that time so it still wasn't a problem. It was funny watching pit personnel scratching their heads wondering why no one wanted to be rated especially in the high limit area. I saw several players being asked for their social security numbers having bought in for over $10,000. Some of them were clearly surprised and caught unaware.

When I left at 4:30pm, there was a whole pit still closed in the Earth and closed in tables in both the Sky and Wind. I left after 10 solid hours of play for the same reason I always do-it's wasn't so much fun anymore. People were getting testy and the place was getting smoky even though I was at a non smoking table which can be had on request.

I did count, mainly for the purpose of wonging out, which I did less than I usually do. It seems to work for me. My results-10 hours of play ahead 14 units. I had my sights set higher but in retrospect that's not bad at all. One of the highlights of the day was the look on peoples faces when I tripled down a soft 20 and won! I look forward to reading about everyone's experience. Good luck to all!

Quote: ruascott

I still think - and please someone who is there correct me - that the $500 limit was only on the "triple" portion - or in other words, the bet in addition to the regular double-down. So you could bet $1k, and then the most you could bet behind it would be $1500, for $2500 total bet.

The max advantage play would be $500 regular bet, which you could then fully "triple" with another $1k, for $1500 total bet.

I was there and I believe you are correct. I saw someone bet $300 at my table, split and triple on one of the slit hands (back it up with $600).

The promotion rules may have been interpreted differently from pit to pit; and dealer to dealer. Originally the dealer told us you can't triple after a split, then later she said it was ok to do so.

My quick story before I go to bed...

We got to a table in the back of "Wind" casino - a $15 table, at about 6am. No problem getting seats. We clarified that the max bet was $500 (and thus you could put down another $1k for a triple bet). You could also play multiple hands (if they were open, which sporatically happened). The first pit boss said no triple after split (only double). The next one said we could - and that's how we played for the duration. We had a lot of fun with it - doing the "triple" chant, and getting excited about it. They didn't seem frazzled by it, nor think it was a mistake in any way.
I observed people not playing correct strategy, not tripling, not knowing what to do, or getting their bankroll wiped out. So I don't think this was a huge loss for the casino - and hopefully not, because hwo knows - maybe they will do it again!
For me and my crew, it was a very nice steady stream of profits. We intended to play more, since it is hard to pass on free money, but we left on the positive side of the variance curve, and were fairly tired. It was a very nice take for the day. There is a negative though - I might be ruined for "regular" blackjack...

I was also in the Wind casino and same story. Got down there at 5am and played with complete idiots at my table hitting 14s against 6 etc. At exactly 6am got to triple my first hand. The floor people and dealers had no idea really what was going on. For the first 2 hours it was triple after split, then no then one hour later it was on again. I wasn't at high limit tables, but it did not appear that many people came down especially for triple down. There were some knowledgable ppl that were sitting down there, but for the most part it was regular basic strategy players that just liked the novelty of tripling down. Plenty of seats. Overall a very good time, made cash and they were giving full comps too.

Quote: benbakdoff

It was funny watching pit personnel scratching their heads wondering why no one wanted to be rated especially in the high limit area.

Why didn't they want to be rated? This seems like the perfect type of promotion to get rated on, especially since players didn't need to count to gain an edge.

Hey Wizard,

At the Spanish 21 table my friend played at, they let you triple down and if you surrendered, you took back 2 chips and NOT half of the amount. So let's say you bet 10, tripled down to make total bet 30 then surrendered, you took back 20. My friend made a KILLING tonight. I can imagine this is huge +EV. Would it be possible to run a chart for this type of game?

Also, the low limit Blackjack tables at Mohegan Sun have dealer HIT on soft 17, not stand, so if this happens again, would be awesome to have regular chart for that as well.

Thank you for the help!

By the way, I walked out with 18 Units and I just min bet the whole way through for about 5 hours of play, so I'm happy with it.

The lower limit tables you had to wait like 15-45 minutes, and most people were doing the triple down, but not always well or at the right time or playing correctly.

Fun relaxing night and lots of people walked away with some $$

Fear of being banned.... Paranoia from all the hype.... Misunderstanding the comp system. I am guessing these folks were first time of very infrequent players at MS. There's usually no heat from the floor because surveillance has software to detect card counting. I certainly gave my card as soon as I sat down. These players gave up the price of a good meal to several hundred dollars on their card.One point equals one dollar and the card can be used exactly like a prepaid credit card at every business at MS-even the gas station where you can just swipe at the pump and fill er up.

Trip report later, but quick question now: my wife and I played about 20 hours of the promo and now have like $2000 in comps at Mohegan. I don't expect we'll return anytime soon. Nor can I think of much we want at any of the stores. Any suggestions for ways to extract value from the comps before our flight home? Stuff we could ebay for a reasonable percentage of face value or something? Thanks.

Quote: fivespot

now have like $2000 in comps at Mohegan. I don't expect we'll return anytime soon.

If you don't think you'll be back before they expire, go shopping. Sure, you may not want to pay with real cash the prices some of those store are asking for some of the stuff they are selling, but if it's free money that's going to expire? Spend it!

Quote: fivespot

Trip report later, but quick question now: my wife and I played about 20 hours of the promo and now have like $2000 in comps at Mohegan. I don't expect we'll return anytime soon. Nor can I think of much we want at any of the stores. Any suggestions for ways to extract value from the comps before our flight home? Stuff we could ebay for a reasonable percentage of face value or something? Thanks.

What's a reasonable percentage? I'll give you 50c to the dollar if you fill up my gas tank this afternoon! :)

Quote: fivespot

Trip report later, but quick question now: my wife and I played about 20 hours of the promo and now have like $2000 in comps at Mohegan. I don't expect we'll return anytime soon. Nor can I think of much we want at any of the stores. Any suggestions for ways to extract value from the comps before our flight home? Stuff we could ebay for a reasonable percentage of face value or something? Thanks.

Buy some watches from Citizen. Those should sell fairly easily on ebay.

I believe the comps are good for one year without any activity. They used to send a letter telling you the comps were about to expire. At that time you could reactivate them for another year by giving them some action as small as one dollar through a slot machine.They also used to let you reactivate over the phone. Check with the club to be sure.

Quote: fivespot

Trip report later, but quick question now: my wife and I played about 20 hours of the promo and now have like $2000 in comps at Mohegan. I don't expect we'll return anytime soon. Nor can I think of much we want at any of the stores. Any suggestions for ways to extract value from the comps before our flight home? Stuff we could ebay for a reasonable percentage of face value or something? Thanks.

I don't know about Mohegan Sun but Harrah's has Shell gas cards you can buy from their catalog. Maybe MS has these too?

Edit: The Trading Cove gift shop is offering a promotion where you buy one piece of jewelery for $200 and get a second piece free. I don't know how many times you can do it, or if it applies to comp dollars. If they have gold or silver items, it might be a good place to load up, or high-end watches. If you can't do that or the gas cards, I would take the Wizard's recommendation and get a Rolex, or in lieu of that, Citizen watch.

Thanks for all the trip reports. I'm happy to hear they stuck with it, although at the cost of losing my honor to Dorothy.

I did not know they would allow a surrender on the full triple in Spanish 21. Forgive me if I don't fuss with analyzing that, since it is moot now.

About getting rid of comp points, my general advice is to get the highest end Rolex you can and auction it on eBay. You can expect to get about 60% of retail. If you don't have enough points, or they don't sell Rolexes, then any kind of automatic watch should get at least 50% of retail on eBay. Or do some Christmas shopping early.

Quote: teddys

I don't know about Mohegan Sun but Harrah's has Shell gas cards you can buy from their catalog. Maybe MS has these too?

Mohegan Sun has an on-site gas station. They aren't gonna let you spend their money elsewhere.

As an addendum, it was interesting to play a different strategy from basic. As in, tripling on a soft 20 against a 4 instead of standing. A guy got so upset I did that he left the table - too funny.

From my own observations, and the reports of others, it does not seem like they got crushed on this promotion, and might have actually made money on it. Hopefully they will do it again!

As to the comping - yes, got several hundred in comps - no idea why anyone would not want to be rated, since this was simply playing by the rules they set up. Was a nice bonus on top of the pile of cash...

So is there anyone that took the Wizard's strategy and didn't win money? I'd think it would have had to happen with someone, but perhaps they don't want to admit it.

No problem, I was just curious in case they run this again and I was just curious what kind of edge my friend had under perfect strategy. If I had to guess probably like 5%?

I hearbye acknowledge the "honor" I lost to those who accepted the lines I offered and chose the correct wager. Though I did not lose a significant amount of honor, any amount is difficult to lose. On the other hand, I did not win any honor from anyone.

And Mr. W., you did indeed take the honor of a girl from Kansas.

I am not yet honorless, so there may be more such wagers to come.

--Dorothy

I was there quite a while, both in regular pits and high limit areas.

There were many people who were tripling correctly (or close - even BS gives a decent +EV), but by far the biggest problem I saw was that people were SEVERELY under-bankrolled for this promotion.

Blackjack already has a very high variance, and this promotion magnified it by 50%. This means that if you're betting black, you're almost certainly going to be down high-4 to 5 figures at some point. This busted a LOT of people out, which may have been exactly Mohegan's intent (and good for them!)

And because of all the variance, the bell curve is rather wide; plenty of people lost plenty of money, but they probably won't go yapping about it on a public board.

Still, I think this was a great promotion, both for aspiring skilled players as well as for Mohegan Sun. I hope they do it again! The free bet at the top of the hour was a nice little bonus, especially at $100 tables. :)

Two teammates and I left home, bound for Connecticut, at 9:30 Wednesday night, planning on making it to the casino by 2:00. We were NOT going to miss getting seats. At the casino we met the other half of our group of six. Then we took seats and prepared to hold them til 6.

If you were there, you know this was a waste. There was no problem getting seats. I felt a little silly, actually, that I had lost a trivial 50 bucks trying to hold seats and then decided to move before the promotion started because I knew I could and didn't want to risk questions about suddenly multiplying my wager by a factor of ten. I headed to the Sky high limit room.

Within five minutes the guy to my left doubled soft 20 against a 6. Hey there, friend, if you are reading this. Clearly, you have been to page one of this discussion and committed the Wizard's strategy to memory. Over the course of the day, I noticed this was true of a VERY large percentage of players. (Thanks again, Wizard. I thought of you every time I doubled an 8 against a 6.) Anyway, the Asian lady to my right was wagering up to 2k a hand and 50 on match the dealer, so not EVERYONE was a professional. But by 9:00 PM, it was an AP convention. I had a strange feeling of belonging - playing at a table where no one questioned hitting 12 against a 3 or soft eighteen against a ten. We were all on the same noble mission, and we knew how to accomplish it.

I only wanted to bet 500 a round over 2 hands, but quickly found that dealing with green chips on $250 hands slowed the game down. My friend on my left suggested one hand of 300 and one of 200. Anyone who played with me will remember that I flat bet this amount religiously. I am afraid I still played slowly, though. Sorry to anyone I cost money.

When triple after split got shut down for an hour early on, I thought that was the beginning of the end. But no! Soon it returned, never to depart again until 6 am the next day. Our greatest fear - early termination - never materialized. Was it because the casino really did fine on this promotion? In the words of one pit boss "No. We are getting killed." We all stayed the full 24 hours, and I was very proud as I looked up at 5:50 to see members of my team still frantically struggling to get every bet they could out before the clock struck midnight and the casino turned back into a pumpkin.

Did we kill it? Well the six of us made around 90k. Our worst performer lost a trivial 2 grand. At 60 hands an hour of 1.5%, and maybe 22 hours a man, we figured to make 60k. I regret we didn't pump up the wagers as we won, and I guess even the couple hours walking or eating have to be considered wasted. But nobody's perfect. Overall, I think we did pretty well. Oh, and we got around 2k in comp credit each on top of it. That's the icing.

I've heard of at least two other teams with similar numbers who achieved similar results. Congratulations guys. I hope everyone crushed it, because I think the next time anyone at MS hears the word "triple" he/she is going to run the other way.

I played out the whole promo at one of the smaller tables. Sat in same spot and had quite the run. Was very quiet at the start and a lot of the people working weren't sure how it worked at the start. Had quite the run for small base (4 figure profit) Normally play basic strategy with no exceptions but added triples made huge difference. On another note, the dealer who came on in the last hour of my long run said he was told Mohegan took over 4 million dollar loss with the promo, but apparently still plan on 2 more. Really hope that is the case. Apparently the reason for the early switch from allowing triples on splits (got off to great start with those) was because one player playing 500 tables at table max had multi-split with multi triples that payed somewhere over 10k. That caused the temporary halt early on, but wasn't long before they put it back in place. Really glad that decision was reversed quick as they had a lot of complaints as rules had stated "normal double rules apply". I would say that even though it wasn't as "busy" as had been predicted, high rollers did fly in and casino if the info from the dealer is trusted took even more of a loss than predicted on low end!

Props to Mohegan for keeping it up but if they took a 4 mil loss then I doubt they would ever do this again.

He seemed to be pretty well informed with how day had gone as a lot of what he said matched my esperiences of my 24 hour run. I agree it seems that they wouldn't do it again based on that number but said they expected something of that nature, however they really need their "high rollers" coming back and so these kind of promos help do so. Friend whose parents have 33rd floor status said up there they tell them the same that "at least" one more is planned. Let's hope lol!

Removed by request.

If one more is planned, then Spanish 21 is the best odds you can get on the full surrender. I also had huge variance. The swings in this are huge. Guy next to me lost 3 triples and a triple after a split within 10 or so hands and it looked very very painful.

I just got back from the Sun, and the boss I spoke with said they took a small hit, but when I said "Someone said it could cost you 2 million?" and he laughed and said "Noooooo...not even close." For what it's worth. I guess he could have been lying to me, but I would think they'd want to spread the word if they had a lot of winners.

People have been reporting what the pit bosses' comments on how much MS won or lost...how could they possibly know? Not only are they not in the position to know, who upstairs would care to call all the pit bosses and tell them? My guess is none of them have any true idea of how the entire promotion did in all the pits combined, and they were all just talking out of their ass to make it sound like they were part of upper management or something like that. Just complete jibber jabber "hey look how important I am, I know stuff, and I'm going to be nice to you and tell you ... and only you! ... something that only I know because I'm so important the upstairs folks called me to let me know since my input is so important to them". A bunch of baloney, they have no clue...and thus neither do the players that talked to any pit bosses.

Quote: hhhccc

People have been reporting what the pit bosses' comments on how much MS won or lost...how could they possibly know? Not only are they not in the position to know, who upstairs would care to call all the pit bosses and tell them? My guess is none of them have any true idea of how the entire promotion did in all the pits combined, and they were all just talking out of their ass to make it sound like they were part of upper management or something like that. Just complete jibber jabber "hey look how important I am, I know stuff, and I'm going to be nice to you and tell you ... and only you! ... something that only I know because I'm so important the upstairs folks called me to let me know since my input is so important to them". A bunch of baloney, they have no clue...and thus neither do the players that talked to any pit bosses.

Well, I agree they can't know the official total number, but if they're on a shift for 8 hours in a blackjack pit, they definitely know how much is being bought in for (every buy in) and how much is being cashed out in their pit (every cash out). They know their racks and they know when they need fills. It's their job, and it's not like there are 100 different BJ pits. I'd think they were talking with their co-workers about it as well. I definitely have met pit bosses like the ones you suggest that want to seem important, but I've noticed the vast majority usually don't have that attitude. Even the ones that I've met who want to seem important have never suggested that their input is important to the people upstairs. Almost always the exact opposite. Just my opinion.

I would fully agree with the above and couldn't disagree more with previous to that. With previous career in corporate sales environment even the account managers (far from "upper management") are well aware at most companies when you work on a "sales floor", right down to profit margins for the day, revenue, gross profit etc.. Where I mention this in an environment where numbers are pretty much everything, each pit boss has a certain amount of tables they are responsible for, and know very well how the table is doing for course of their shift, day, etc.. There is a reason the chips are stacked with markers at exact points making for easy counts and why they do counts at certan intervals. Not sure if you have had some bad experiences with pit bosses in your area but the ones at either of the CT casinos do not usually have that kind of attitude. More often I get the joke that they would rather be a dealer. The number when given on same day at end of promotion is not exact but is usually pretty close based on combination of tables at different denominations across the casino. I would bet the $5 tables even on a day where the casino took a hit did okay with people not playing the promotion, playing wrong, playing side bets at too high of a level etc... In short I would argue that co-workers talk and even if "upper management" hasn't made them directly aware of the days numbers yet, they are well aware of how the blackjack tables are doing in general for the day.

Quote: fivespot

Any suggestions for ways to extract value from the comps before our flight home? Stuff we could ebay for a reasonable percentage of face value or something?

we ended up buying a bunch of iPods at Spin Street, which like everything else was overpriced, but we'll get about 2/3 of the comp face value from them on eBay. alternative buy was the one-ounce gold bar at the asian gift shop for 1900 comp dollars, which is worth about 1200 real dollars, for about the same ratio.

plus a few meals - i highly recommend bobby flay's burger joint - and some random junk, naturally.

Quote: ruascott

So is there anyone that took the Wizard's strategy and didn't win money? I'd think it would have had to happen with someone, but perhaps they don't want to admit it.

i played the wizard's strategy - after independently verifying it with my own calculations - and got crushed. playing mostly 2x$200 and 3x$200, i was down over $30000 about eight hours in, and ended down $17000 or so. thankfully the wife did a lot better.

incidentally, while i expected that wizard's 60 rounds per hour estimate would be on the high side, it actually turned out to be way low. most of the dealers in the high-limit pits are excellent and fast, and with a table of 2-3 players who make fast decisions, rounds just fly by.

on occasion i was able to get heads-up with a dealer playing three spots, and that was amazingly zoomy. deal deal deal deal deal deal deal deal wave wave tap deal wave flip deal deal pay grab pay discard repeat with hardly a chance for breath. i can't imagine trying to count cards in a game that fast, so it's a good thing i wasn't trying to count; just bet and bet and bet and play the strategy and hold on tight.

Quote: fivespot

i played the wizard's strategy - after independently verifying it with my own calculations - and got crushed. playing mostly 2x$200 and 3x$200, i was down over $30000 about eight hours in, and ended down $17000 or so. thankfully the wife did a lot better.

This might seem like a noob question, but is it better to play multiple spots? I was thinking that would increase my Variance and Risk of Ruin because my hands would be correlated. But it gives some diversification benefits because you can play multiple hands, so which is it?

Props to Mohegan Sun. This is a beautiful casino that is well worth visiting whether you are looking for a possible edge or, like most players, just looking to have a fun time in a nice environment.

I doubt they lost $4 M. I won, but the other 4 people I knew that were playing all lost. Assuming that they did not completely blow out the marketing budget, this is the type of promotion that is good for the Casino industry as a whole. They sent out over 113,000 emails and attracted all sorts of players. Sure some won, but that is what makes blackjack so popular with the masses.

Casinos like MS are smart to remember that the popularity of Blackjack (and the casinos bottom line) has increased tremendously since the publication of Beat the Dealer. Yes, an extremely small % has been able to beat the game because of this book, but half smart players armed with what they think is enough to give them a small edge will lose much more money than players who know they know nothing.

Quote: fivespot

we ended up buying a bunch of iPods at Spin Street, which like everything else was overpriced, but we'll get about 2/3 of the comp face value from them on eBay. alternative buy was the one-ounce gold bar at the asian gift shop for 1900 comp dollars, which is worth about 1200 real dollars, for about the same ratio.

plus a few meals - i highly recommend bobby flay's burger joint - and some random junk, naturally.

I really liked the convenience of being able to use your comps with your PIN at places like Starbucks, but didn't have a chance to make it over to any of the shops. Do all the shops have the PIN keypads?

Quote: grifter99

This might seem like a noob question, but is it better to play multiple spots? I was thinking that would increase my Variance and Risk of Ruin because my hands would be correlated. But it gives some diversification benefits because you can play multiple hands, so which is it?

depends what you're measuring. if you want to bet $400 per round, 2x$200 is less variance than 1x$400. if you want to bet $200 per hand, one round of 2x$200 is much more variance than two rounds of 1x$200.

from my point of view, variance aside, every spot i'm playing is a spot that a slow player can't sit down and take. it helps ensure that my game will remain fast, preserving my hourly EV.

but i'm also something of a noob, i don't usually play blackjack. i'm also biased because i just find playing multiple hands per round to be more interesting, so i'm looking for an excuse to do so.

Quote: alternativeinvestor

I really liked the convenience of being able to use your comps with your PIN at places like Starbucks, but didn't have a chance to make it over to any of the shops. Do all the shops have the PIN keypads?

i bought stuff from four shops, and all took comps using the PIN keypads.

Quote: cclub79

W if they're on a shift for 8 hours in a blackjack pit, they definitely know how much is being bought in for (every buy in) and how much is being cashed out in their pit (every cash out).

I agree that they can know roughly how much won/lost on their 8-hr shift. But how many pits are there in the entire casino? 10? 10 x 3 shifts = 30 different pit bosses. If one pit boss talked to 3 other pit bosses, that's still less than 15% of the whole picture. Thus they couldn't possibly know the real number or get close to it unless they talked to the guys upstairs. Sure, they could make guesses, but their guess isn't going to be that much better than a player.

Stopped in for some blackjack at Mohegan Sun this morning and got to talking about Thursday's promotion. Three different conversations with three different managers resulted in the following comments: The promotion was a great success.... We were very pleased.... The casino was quite happy etc. It was like they were quoting from a prepared script. I am really hoping that's the case so we can get more of these promos. By they way, I was just as successful in 2 1/2 hours of blackjack today as I was in 10 hours Thursday. Go figure. Things are pretty much back to normal now-slow play, playing match the dealer etc. I even saw someone using the Wizards Triple Down Strategy. DUH!

For those who do not know what to do with their comps in Mohegan Sun - They can be used for travel including airfare. One and one half comps for one dollar of travel. Call MS travel at 1-800-677-4562 M-F 8:30 AM to 5:00 PM eastern time.

Thanks again for the trip reports. I'm happy to have helped.

If I didn't make it clear, I think the MS deserves some applause for going through with this. Maybe it didn't hurt them as much as expected, but they still honored their own rules, which sadly is not often the case when any casino puts out a good advantage play. The philosophy here in Vegas is often let's just do any old thing, and if it looks like we blew it, we'll invoke the good-old "all rights reserved" clause, and cancel it early. Another common method of retaliation in Vegas is to cull a list of the "greedy" players who "abused" the promotion, and make them feel unwelcome for any future promotions or offers. It is too early to tell is the MS will do this, but it sounds like they were good sports about it, so I doubt it. This, by the way, is the reason why many players declined to present player cards, to answer the question posed earlier.

From some of the comments it sounds like there was still confusion and inconsistency about the rules and limits. The planning could have obviously been better. Then again, if they couldn't see the mistake they were making to begin with, they likely wouldn't foresee the problems and questions that would arise as a result. However, overall, I have to say BRAVO to the Mohegan Sun. If they had watered this down or canceled it early, I would be the first to rag on them. So it is only fair they get their due praise for doing the right thing.

I absolutely agree with the Wizard. This always puts me in a sort of catch-22, in that the casinos that have treated me best, and that I am most fond of, are rewarded by losing the most money to me. The same is true of Bellagio and Mirage, which offer nice 2 deck games with relatively low heat. I'd like to pay these casinos back somehow. But all I can say is that if I AM going to blow money on a nice hotel, or a show, that these are my top choices. I made sure to go to O in Vegas, and if I could ever get tickets I'd go to Love. And I try to take most of my meals at Bellagio and Mirage. As for Mohegan Sun, I will certainly take a trip back there for pleasure at some point - maybe play a little poker. And if friends want a recommendation, I would say that it is a beautiful property, with courteous staff, excellent restaurants, and it is the place I would pick in Connecticut. If anyone from MS is reading this, BRAVO indeed for honoring your commitment. You've made some friends.

Thanks to all for your postings in this thread, especially Wizard for providing the strategy table.

The 5 am news was just starting on the radio when I parked at the casino. I got a replacement player’s card and went directly to the BJ tables. I came bankrolled to play $20 flat betting. (Yeah, yuck it up you guys. As I said, I’m a tadpole.) The postings in this thread alerted me to an increased potential for ruin due to the change in variance, so I decided to be VERY safe and flat bet $5. Having a good time is more important to me than profitability. Going broke really crimps my good time.

Unlike the higher limit tables, almost all the $5 seats were taken at the four open tables. I was seated at 5:20 am at the one non-smoking table and drew 40 units of chips. I would not need to tap my bankroll again for eighteen straight hours of play. For clarification, the low-limit tables operate with hitting S17 while the higher limit tables stand on S17. I flat bet and used basic strategy appropriate for the game at hand until the start of the promotion. Just by chance I was dead even at 40 units for the first hand of the promotion.

Others have posted regarding the rule change for DAS/TAS. I will just add that I noted the time was 8:06 am when our table was informed TAS was not allowed, and that was reversed to allowing TAS according to a 9:48 am announcement.
Eventually all the $5 tables were open and there was a wait to get a seat. However, this is common for the $5 seats even without the promotion.

I played at the same table for 18 hours straight, missing only one hand that was dealt while I took a cell call. I flat bet 1 unit and used Wizard’s triple-down strategy for every hand with two exceptions. I erred in hitting a 12 v. 6 but didn’t bust. No other players took a card and the dealer won the hand on his hit. If I had not hit my hand, the card I took would have also given the dealer a winning hand, so my error in play was moot. A fellow sitting next to me claimed to be using a hi/lo count and advised me to bet up at one point. I humored him and bet 2 units which I lost. Noting that he was surrendering 14 vs. 10 and placing Acey-Deucey side bets, I declined not to take his advice any further.

At noon, six hours into the promotion, I was up 20 units. At 2:30 pm I was up more than 50 units. At 5 pm I was up 20 units. (If this wasn’t a one-time promotion, I would have cashed out upon sinking to up 40 units.) I was even at 9:30 pm and cashed out at 11:20 pm down 10 units. I did tip the dealer occasionally, which accounts for two units of the loss. Also, I tipped the attendants when served which accounts for another unit of the loss.

The swings were incredible. There were two shoes back-to-back where I increased my stack by more than 25 units. Triple-down situations came every other hand and they were winning. My stiff hands didn’t bust on a hit. The dealer was busting far more that statistics would predict. It was… beautiful! Of course, there was also a trip through the desert. A run of six shoes didn’t produce but an occasional advantageous hand of any kind, and triple-down situations were very rare. I played 5 triple-downs during this draught and lost 4. This didn’t just apply to my hands. Most of the players at the table left in disgust, blaming the dealer of course.

All in all the promotion was great fun. If it is held again, I’m in! The dealers were informing players that the triple-down promotion was in effect for every Thursday, even thought the printed information at each table clearly stated the triple-down promotion was for July 15th only. By the way, I played for an hour or so on Friday and recovered my lost 10 units. Plus 10 more!

I was able to play for 18 hours straight with a little discipline. I didn’t have a cup of coffee in the morning so that stimulant could be used when necessary. I brought a large bag of mixed nuts and string cheese which I would eat from during the shuffle, stepping away from the table, of course. After eight hours of play I was starting to have trouble focusing on the game, so that’s when I had a cup of coffee. It did the trick. I had another cup three hours later. After fifteen and a half hours of play I felt I was lagging a bit and had a scotch and water. (No Johnny Black served at the $5 tables, but J&B does just fine.) Yes boys and girls, alcohol is a stimulant when used in SMALL doses. I had a second drink half an hour before stopping play. I was not fatigued and could have easily continued play, but I did want to spend some time with my wife and get some sleep in the room we were paying for.

When I completed my eighteen hours straight of play, I asked the Floor Admiral what was recorded for my play time. She said I had only 4 hours 20 minutes of play, according to the computer. When I insisted that I’d been at the same table for 18 hours, she was dismissive and not at all helpful, saying I might have forgotten to give them my card. I explained that on being seated I refused to bet until my card was taken. She referred me to her boss who just parroted the same line of “we can’t do anything.” I would not drop the matter and was referred to the manager. The manager was also not very helpful other than he said he would ask for a review and maybe some time in the next two weeks they would get around to evaluating my claim. I stressed that the comp points were not really an issue as I was aware 18 hours of $5 play won’t get you a cup of coffee. The issue was being fairly credited for time played.

I did play through three shifts of dealers, so perhaps the paperwork was temporarily lost. Whether true or not, I was told it would not be possible to review the security camera recordings to verify my claim on the spot. I’m sure the manager thought he’d had the last word, but my wife was not satisfied with the situation and kicked it up another level. She talked with someone probably at the VP level who said she could see that I was playing during the first shift, but nothing was entered for the second shift.

After my wife and the VP chatted, the manager visited us while we were dining at The Birches and gave us a comp check to cover the meal. I’m sure he was unhappy that my wife “went over his head.” While handing over the check he reiterated the same information about the review procedure again, as if to justify his actions and not back down an inch. This was the only flaw in his otherwise professional demeanor. I was happy that we had gotten his attention. I will post here again and let all know what the final resolution is.

This was the only blemish on our visit to MS, and I consider it a minor one that won’t rule out a future visit. I understand that the $5 tables are visited by many players who are difficult customers that won’t hesitate to chisel the casino out of a few bucks, but I won’t accept that as justification for treating every claim with an air of suspicion that the customers can notice.

BleedingChipsSlowly-Not being rated properly is an all too common problem at Mohegan Sun.That's why I always check my comp points before and after play. The problem is with shift changes. There is no communication between the outgoing shift and the incoming shift. Rating cards are collected at the end of each shift for input into the system. This is where the ball gets dropped. No one bothers to start a new card for the unknowing and trusting player sitting at the table. The new shift couldn't care less what happened on the old shift and the old shift just wants to go home. As you've discovered,you'll get plenty of lip service but not much else. If they tell you they'll back up your time-well- I've got some swamp land for sale. The shifts change at 5AM,1PM,and 9PM. The solution is if you are playing at any of these times, automatically give your card to the new floor person. That should solve the problem. This transition should be smooth without player interaction and that's one of the pet peeves about the casino. At $5 a hand your comps will probably be 10% or $.50 an hour.

Quote: benbakdoff

BleedingChipsSlowly-Not being rated properly is an all too common problem at Mohegan Sun.That's why I always check my comp points before and after play. The problem is with shift changes. There is no communication between the outgoing shift and the incoming shift. Rating cards are collected at the end of each shift for input into the system. This is where the ball gets dropped. No one bothers to start a new card for the unknowing and trusting player sitting at the table. The new shift couldn't care less what happened on the old shift and the old shift just wants to go home. As you've discovered,you'll get plenty of lip service but not much else. If they tell you they'll back up your time-well- I've got some swamp land for sale. The shifts change at 5AM,1PM,and 9PM. The solution is if you are playing at any of these times, automatically give your card to the new floor person. That should solve the problem. This transition should be smooth without player interaction and that's one of the pet peeves about the casino. At $5 a hand your comps will probably be 10% or $.50 an hour.

Thank you for your reply, benbakdoff. It is cold comfort to know that faulty play rating is pervasive at MS rather than an unusual event visited on me. I will take your advice about checking often to ensure tracking. If your estimation of comps for $5 play is right then I will be able to get a cup of coffee, premium even. If I get a dollar figure for a comp correction I'll post it.

At MS: Until recently, I mostly played craps and almost always was undercredited. Usually I would be don't pass, with $150.00, and take $10 Yo. As soon as the point was established, I would lay $150-300.00 on my $150 don't bet and also bet 6 and 8 for 30 each. The last time I checked my math, $150 + 30+ 30, not counting the Yo bet or the lay bets = $210. I would then increase my numbers bets if numbers started coming in. So my minimum bet was at least $210. (Most casinos don't cound either lay bets or free odds on pass line bets, since there is no house edge on this portion of the bet.) At the end of every session, I always check to see what "average bet" I've been credited with. Invariably, I'm told 80 or 100 dollars. I then end up arguing for the next half hour. All kinds of excuses tend to occur: the previous pit boss just left, the boxman shift just changed, the table was busy and we didn't see these bets. I've suggested that they should just ask the dealer what I've played. They won't ask the dealer, who sets up the bets. I've asked to ask any of the players around me, since it's pretty obvious to the other players, who are playing minimal amounts of money, when you're playing at a 5 dollar minimum table, what a higher betting player is betting. The response is "We don't want to disturb the other players, (who after a few hours play are more than happy to corroborate my claims.)" One pit boss asked me if I thought there was a conspiracy against me personally. I couldn't believe he even asked the question, but I told him that I was sure it was nothing personal, but that probably the casino routinely under credits players, at least at craps.

I switched to black jack, and have generally found that the pit bosses at the black jack tables are much more honest in calculating average bets and therefore, awarding appropriate comps. To be fair, perhaps it's easier to be accurate in blackjack, since most blackjack players are playing just one bet at a time, and don't have bets all over the table.