Las Vegas Trip Summary: Estimated numbers
Alamo-- -$100. Six (or 4?) deck poor rules. Suspected of being a counter before the first hand was dealt. Don't bother with this place.
Eldorado--+$100. 3-80. Counter-catcher came out to presumably let me know that if I didn't leave in short order, I'd no longer have the choice.
Four Queens--+1100.
The D--+900.
Boulder Station-- -500
Gold Coast-- -600
Longhorn--+200. 2-50. Dealer plus pit boss watching one table. Fortunately, some drunk was averaging $25 occassionally betting the max. Best house edge in vegas, blackjack survey got this one wrong. Not a nice place or a real casino. They needed to verify my huge cashout at the "cage".
Bighorn--+50. "Pitboss" watched game like a hawk, while smoking a cigarette. Unless you speak fluent Spanish and have a murder rap, avoid this place.
Suncoast--+350. Pit got on the phone and I booked.
Palace Station--+50. Pit seemed to describe me on the phone and I booked.
MLife Property--10-200. 3 sessions. Played rated twice. No tap, despite being flagged at another Mlife. +$900.
2 Rinky Dink places--+150. Backed off blackjack.
Joker's Wild--3-50 on 6D. $0. Discard rack counted down. This place is a joke. Avoid.
Aliante--+450
Cannery-- -50.
Red Rock--+50
Railroad Pass--+$150
Santa Fe Station--+$100
Texas Station--+250
Orleans--+$300
Lucky Club--+50
About +4450. Trip expenses $1250. Couple unrelated questions:
1. Viewed a win/loss statement from a casino I can't play blackjack at. The total is about 3 times higher than what I actually won; in other words, grossly inaccurate. Is it at all likely the casino did this on purpose and conspiratorily had abusive SARs filed on me (my transactions never came close to nearing $10,000, or $5000 for that matter; on occassion close to $3,000, but never reaching that mark either.) Could an audit stem from this?
2. For the trip, I withdrew just short of 3K. On return over a week later, I deposited just short of 5K. I told both tellers about Vegas. In the past, cash transactions of 1K were not uncommon. Am I in SAR territory with my bank?
Edit: Except for the totals, these numbers aren't 100% accurate. However, my first gambling night set an all-time high win record for one day. And so did total wins for one week. It was an excellent trip.
2. If your bank is concerned about or reporting transactions of $5,000 a week, it must be a hole-in-the-wall place.
Quote: Doc1. My experience is that for table game players at modest levels, the win/loss statements are hardly more accurate than random numbers. Perhaps they maintain better records if you are wagering with purple, orange, or brown chips. I don't think you have anything to worry about.
2. If your bank is concerned about or reporting transactions of $5,000 a week, it must be a hole-in-the-wall place.
1) Good to hear, thanks Doc. When I saw it, I was just stunned. I was wondering if there was some ulterior motive, it's so egregiously wrong. It's comforting to hear it's common. Sometimes I get to cash in the purple, but I'm never betting them.
2) I have no idea if my bank is concerned. I just never deposited that much cash before. Seems like you're saying don't worry. I won't. Thanks again.
Quote: SonuvabishEl Cortez--Three sessions. 5-75. With camo. +$350. No backoff. Got the glare on the second, very short session. No camo used anywhere else.
Alamo-- -$100. Six (or 4?) deck poor rules. Suspected of being a counter before the first hand was dealt. Don't bother with this place.
Eldorado--+$100. 3-80. Counter-catcher came out to presumably let me know that if I didn't leave in short order, I'd no longer have the choice.
Four Queens--+1100.
The D--+900.
Boulder Station-- -500
Gold Coast-- -600
Longhorn--+200. 2-50. Dealer plus pit boss watching one table. Fortunately, some drunk was averaging $25 occassionally betting the max. Best house edge in vegas, blackjack survey got this one wrong. Not a nice place or a real casino. They needed to verify my huge cashout at the "cage".
Bighorn--+50. "Pitboss" watched game like a hawk, while smoking a cigarette. Unless you speak fluent Spanish and have a murder rap, avoid this place.
Suncoast--+350. Pit got on the phone and I booked.
Palace Station--+50. Pit seemed to describe me on the phone and I booked.
MLife Property--10-200. 3 sessions. Played rated twice. No tap, despite being flagged at another Mlife. +$900.
2 Rinky Dink places--+150. Backed off blackjack.
Joker's Wild--3-50 on 6D. $0. Discard rack counted down. This place is a joke. Avoid.
Aliante--+450
Cannery-- -50.
Red Rock--+50
Railroad Pass--+$150
Santa Fe Station--+$100
Texas Station--+250
Orleans--+$300
Lucky Club--+50
About +4450. Trip expenses $1250. Couple unrelated questions:
1. Viewed a win/loss statement from a casino I can't play blackjack at. The total is about 3 times higher than what I actually won; in other words, grossly inaccurate. Is it at all likely the casino did this on purpose and conspiratorily had abusive SARs filed on me (my transactions never came close to nearing $10,000, or $5000 for that matter; on occassion close to $3,000, but never reaching that mark either.) Could an audit stem from this?
2. For the trip, I withdrew just short of 3K. On return over a week later, I deposited just short of 5K. I told both tellers about Vegas. In the past, cash transactions of 1K were not uncommon. Am I in SAR territory with my bank?
Edit: Except for the totals, these numbers aren't 100% accurate. However, my first gambling night set an all-time high win record for one day. And so did total wins for one week. It was an excellent trip.
If you're taking out 3k for the trip and depositing back 5k on your return, you'll need an answer as to where the 2k came from if you're audited. Have you considered not depositing the extra 2k?
I withdraw and redeposit 7, 8 or 9k in cash all the time. I just assumed if you're under 10k there's no issue. Can anyone respond to this?
Were you spreading 5-75 in the El Cortez SD game? 3-80 at Eldorado? Do you care about longevity?
Quote: GreasyjohnIf you're taking out 3k for the trip and depositing back 5k on your return, you'll need an answer as to where the 2k came from if you're audited. Have you considered not depositing the extra 2k?
I withdraw and redeposit 7, 8 or 9k in cash all the time. I just assumed if you're under 10k there's no issue. Can anyone respond to this?
Were you spreading 5-75 in the El Cortez SD game? 3-80 at Eldorado? Do you care about longevity?
Well, I already deposited the extra 2K, so not depositing it is a nul issue. That was this year, Im more worried about 2014 audit right now (which is unlikely, just cuz it's tax season). Do you mean I need to worry IF I'm audited, or I'm sending a flag that may cause an audit? I can explain it if audited; I want to avoid audits and SARs.
I was spreading 5-75 at Cortez. But my big bets didn't usually hit 75, they were usually 50-60. And sometimes I played 2 hands and reduced the bet sizes, sometimes i played one. And I didn't start off at 5. I dropped to 5 if the count went below zero. I never started at the slip at 5. I care about longevity at Cortez. I didn't use any camo at Eldorado. Doubt it woulda mattered much, since the place was vacant. That's not a gem like Cortez, I play it like everywhere else...hit it as hard as I can, try not to raise an eyebrow (fails sometimes), and leave.
Quote: SonuvabishWell, I already deposited the extra 2K, so not depositing it is a nul issue. That was this year, Im more worried about 2014 audit right now (which is unlikely, just cuz it's tax season). Do you mean I need to worry IF I'm audited, or I'm sending a flag that may cause an audit? I can explain it if audited; I want to avoid audits and SARs.
I was spreading 5-75 at Cortez. But my big bets didn't usually hit 75, they were usually 50-60. And sometimes I played 2 hands and reduced the bet sizes, sometimes i played one. And I didn't start off at 5. I dropped to 5 if the count went below zero. I never started at the slip at 5. I care about longevity at Cortez. I didn't use any camo at Eldorado. Doubt it woulda mattered much, since the place was vacant. That's not a gem like Cortez, I play it like everywhere else...hit it as hard as I can, try not to raise an eyebrow (fails sometimes), and leave.
Yes, I meant that the 2k would need to be accounted for if you were audited. I don't think the deposit itself is an issue. And you didn't mention, was it SD at El Cortez? And when you say "I never started at the slip at 5." I've never heard the slang "slip". What does it mean?
Quote: GreasyjohnYes, I meant that the 2k would need to be accounted for if you were audited. I don't think the deposit itself is an issue. And you didn't mention, was it SD at El Cortez? And when you say "I never started at the slip at 5." I've never heard the slang "slip". What does it mean?
I played a little DD at Cortez when it was the only empty table, but mostly SD. Some dealers call a pitch game a slip (the cards dealt until shuffled), to differentiate it from a shoe. I don't know if it's called anything else, or how common the term 'slip' is. That's what I call it.
LOL I don't get to that many different places in 3 months. WTF is Bighorn?Quote: SonuvabishEl Cortez--Three sessions. 5-75. With camo. +$350. No backoff. Got the glare on the second, very short session. No camo used anywhere else.
Alamo-- -$100. Six (or 4?) deck poor rules. Suspected of being a counter before the first hand was dealt. Don't bother with this place.
Eldorado--+$100. 3-80. Counter-catcher came out to presumably let me know that if I didn't leave in short order, I'd no longer have the choice.
Four Queens--+1100.
The D--+900.
Boulder Station-- -500
Gold Coast-- -600
Longhorn--+200. 2-50. Dealer plus pit boss watching one table. Fortunately, some drunk was averaging $25 occassionally betting the max. Best house edge in vegas, blackjack survey got this one wrong. Not a nice place or a real casino. They needed to verify my huge cashout at the "cage".
Bighorn--+50. "Pitboss" watched game like a hawk, while smoking a cigarette. Unless you speak fluent Spanish and have a murder rap, avoid this place.
Suncoast--+350. Pit got on the phone and I booked.
Palace Station--+50. Pit seemed to describe me on the phone and I booked.
MLife Property--10-200. 3 sessions. Played rated twice. No tap, despite being flagged at another Mlife. +$900.
2 Rinky Dink places--+150. Backed off blackjack.
Joker's Wild--3-50 on 6D. $0. Discard rack counted down. This place is a joke. Avoid.
Aliante--+450
Cannery-- -50.
Red Rock--+50
Railroad Pass--+$150
Santa Fe Station--+$100
Texas Station--+250
Orleans--+$300
Lucky Club--+50
About +4450. Trip expenses $1250. Couple unrelated questions:
1. Viewed a win/loss statement from a casino I can't play blackjack at. The total is about 3 times higher than what I actually won; in other words, grossly inaccurate. Is it at all likely the casino did this on purpose and conspiratorily had abusive SARs filed on me (my transactions never came close to nearing $10,000, or $5000 for that matter; on occassion close to $3,000, but never reaching that mark either.) Could an audit stem from this?
2. For the trip, I withdrew just short of 3K. On return over a week later, I deposited just short of 5K. I told both tellers about Vegas. In the past, cash transactions of 1K were not uncommon. Am I in SAR territory with my bank?
Edit: Except for the totals, these numbers aren't 100% accurate. However, my first gambling night set an all-time high win record for one day. And so did total wins for one week. It was an excellent trip.
Quote: AxelWolfLOL I don't get to that many different places in 3 months. WTF is Bighorn?
I wanted to spread my action around to avoid getting flyered and booted as soon as I walked in the door. You seriously don't get to that many places? Bighorn is a sister property to longhorn. It's a ghetto bar with a blackjack table. Not a good area. Wear body armor if you decide to go there. Any comments on not getting canned from MLife? Fluke? Before the trip, I was told it was 99% likely I would be tapped if I played rated.
Quote: teddysDang, you got a lot of heat.
Yeah, if you seen me play, u'd know why. A counter around here heard about me. He saw me at a table, and instantly recognized me. I gotta change that up a bit.
I don't know if you can look online to verify your tier credits (or whatever they are at MGMs).....but if you can, does it show any records of play this trip?
I don't know how the comments/red-flagging a card thing works, but it might be just thay they enter comments "at the top", and when your card is scanned, only the top few comments are displayed on the screen, while comments that were further in the past, are no longer visible (without scrolling down).
Quote: RSMGM/MLife casinos won't rate players who are betting under $25 average per hand. I'd think a supervisor (or who ever you gave your card to) pretended to put you in the system, to "make you happy" and to not have to deal with the "we only rate $25+ action players" ordeal.
I don't know if you can look online to verify your tier credits (or whatever they are at MGMs).....but if you can, does it show any records of play this trip?
I don't know how the comments/red-flagging a card thing works, but it might be just thay they enter comments "at the top", and when your card is scanned, only the top few comments are displayed on the screen, while comments that were further in the past, are no longer visible (without scrolling down).
That's patently false, except the part where you don't know how it works. It doesn't even make sense, since completely ignoring me wouldn't give them a very good idea as to my average bet.
Quote: SonuvabishI wanted to spread my action around to avoid getting flyered and booted as soon as I walked in the door. You seriously don't get to that many places? Bighorn is a sister property to longhorn. It's a ghetto bar with a blackjack table. Not a good area. Wear body armor if you decide to go there. Any comments on not getting canned from MLife? Fluke? Before the trip, I was told it was 99% likely I would be tapped if I played rated.
Who gave you that info about MLife? If you were truly spreading $10-$200, I wouldn't expect any MLife casino to bat an eye at you, rated or not. In my limited experience, they are tolerant of low level card counters (up to about $300 max bet). Unless you are talking about DD.
Quote: Sonuvabish
1. Viewed a win/loss statement from a casino I can't play blackjack at. The total is about 3 times higher than what I actually won; in other words, grossly inaccurate. Is it at all likely the casino did this on purpose and conspiratorily had abusive SARs filed on me (my transactions never came close to nearing $10,000, or $5000 for that matter; on occassion close to $3,000, but never reaching that mark either.) Could an audit stem from this?
2. For the trip, I withdrew just short of 3K. On return over a week later, I deposited just short of 5K. I told both tellers about Vegas. In the past, cash transactions of 1K were not uncommon. Am I in SAR territory with my bank?
It's possible the casino did exactly what you think. So I can only offer my own experience about ratings. On Hi Card Flush and UTH at Harrah's, the PB was giving me 4x my average bet credit, which he said was standard practice (but he has to make the manual correction), in order to give me proper rating ATD in the computer. On PGP, my rating includes credit for both hands lumped as one and including the full value of the sidebet, so where I'm playing 30/hand minimum, I'm getting credit for 70/hand (sometimes more because some PB's see I raise my bet on a win), even on a very low HE game. Both practices have got to be at least part of why I get such good (IMO) comps.
So it's possible that there was good intention behind them giving you a high average bet and indicating a higher win than you had. Perhaps they want the computer to boost your value to their system and give you better comps to try and bring you back. Or at least that was what the PB was doing before you apparently got backed off there.
They all, even the hosts, are very responsible to what the computer tells them they can do. But the computer isn't responsible for the initial input of data, just for crunching your relative value from there.
As to the bank, I don't believe you're in SAR territory with those amounts, even if you should get audited for other reasons. Too many ways to have that amount on you for other reasons, too small an amount.
All JMHO. YMMV.
Quote: SonuvabishThat's patently false, except the part where you don't know how it works. It doesn't even make sense, since completely ignoring me wouldn't give them a very good idea as to my average bet.
So now they rate players under $25 average bet? Which part is false?
Quote: SonuvabishEl Cortez--Three sessions. 5-75. With camo. +$350. No backoff. Got the glare on the second, very short session. No camo used anywhere else.
Alamo-- -$100. Six (or 4?) deck poor rules. Suspected of being a counter before the first hand was dealt. Don't bother with this place.
Eldorado--+$100. 3-80. Counter-catcher came out to presumably let me know that if I didn't leave in short order, I'd no longer have the choice.
Four Queens--+1100.
The D--+900.
Boulder Station-- -500
Gold Coast-- -600
Longhorn--+200. 2-50. Dealer plus pit boss watching one table. Fortunately, some drunk was averaging $25 occassionally betting the max. Best house edge in vegas, blackjack survey got this one wrong. Not a nice place or a real casino. They needed to verify my huge cashout at the "cage".
Bighorn--+50. "Pitboss" watched game like a hawk, while smoking a cigarette. Unless you speak fluent Spanish and have a murder rap, avoid this place.
Suncoast--+350. Pit got on the phone and I booked.
Palace Station--+50. Pit seemed to describe me on the phone and I booked.
MLife Property--10-200. 3 sessions. Played rated twice. No tap, despite being flagged at another Mlife. +$900.
2 Rinky Dink places--+150. Backed off blackjack.
Joker's Wild--3-50 on 6D. $0. Discard rack counted down. This place is a joke. Avoid.
Aliante--+450
Cannery-- -50.
Red Rock--+50
Railroad Pass--+$150
Santa Fe Station--+$100
Texas Station--+250
Orleans--+$300
Lucky Club--+50
About +4450. Trip expenses $1250. Couple unrelated questions:
1. Viewed a win/loss statement from a casino I can't play blackjack at. The total is about 3 times higher than what I actually won; in other words, grossly inaccurate. Is it at all likely the casino did this on purpose and conspiratorily had abusive SARs filed on me (my transactions never came close to nearing $10,000, or $5000 for that matter; on occassion close to $3,000, but never reaching that mark either.) Could an audit stem from this?
2. For the trip, I withdrew just short of 3K. On return over a week later, I deposited just short of 5K. I told both tellers about Vegas. In the past, cash transactions of 1K were not uncommon. Am I in SAR territory with my bank?
Edit: Except for the totals, these numbers aren't 100% accurate. However, my first gambling night set an all-time high win record for one day. And so did total wins for one week. It was an excellent trip.
Sounds like you had a blast. I love how you hit many of the small off the beaten path properties like Lucky Club, railroad Pass, Joker's Wild, Eldorado, ect. No Club Fortune? Sounds like you drove right by it on the way to Railroad Pass. I think you would have enjoyed it. Low limit place ($2 or $3 minimums), decent Blackjack with sometimes very good promotions, good machine play opportunities, with outstanding bounce back mailers. Pretty good little diner like café.
A comment about your win/loss statement. I know from a pit friend that if you have been observed 'ratholing chips', casinos will often credit any unaccounted for chips to you which could greatly inflate what they are recording as your win totals.
Quote: kewlj
A comment about your win/loss statement. I know from a pit friend that if you have been observed 'ratholing chips', casinos will often credit any unaccounted for chips to you which could greatly inflate what they are recording as your win totals.
That must only apply to BJ. In roulette
players constantly rathole greens and
blacks and nobody even notices.
Quote: AcesAndEightsWho gave you that info about MLife? If you were truly spreading $10-$200, I wouldn't expect any MLife casino to bat an eye at you, rated or not. In my limited experience, they are tolerant of low level card counters (up to about $300 max bet). Unless you are talking about DD.
I had already been flagged at an MLife property and flat bet. Before I went to Vegas, I started a thread and they said it was 99% likely I would be tapped if I tried to play rated at a different MLife property. Is this accurate?
Quote: beachbumbabsIt's possible the casino did exactly what you think. So I can only offer my own experience about ratings. On Hi Card Flush and UTH at Harrah's, the PB was giving me 4x my average bet credit, which he said was standard practice (but he has to make the manual correction), in order to give me proper rating ATD in the computer. On PGP, my rating includes credit for both hands lumped as one and including the full value of the sidebet, so where I'm playing 30/hand minimum, I'm getting credit for 70/hand (sometimes more because some PB's see I raise my bet on a win), even on a very low HE game. Both practices have got to be at least part of why I get such good (IMO) comps.
So it's possible that there was good intention behind them giving you a high average bet and indicating a higher win than you had. Perhaps they want the computer to boost your value to their system and give you better comps to try and bring you back. Or at least that was what the PB was doing before you apparently got backed off there.
They all, even the hosts, are very responsible to what the computer tells them they can do. But the computer isn't responsible for the initial input of data, just for crunching your relative value from there.
As to the bank, I don't believe you're in SAR territory with those amounts, even if you should get audited for other reasons. Too many ways to have that amount on you for other reasons, too small an amount.
All JMHO. YMMV.
It's good to hear now two people think that an SAR is nothing to worry about from the bank.
Now when you say you were overrated at the casino, and there could have been good intentions in my case before the backoff, do you think SARs are any worry there? Thanks Babs for the info.
Quote: RSSo now they rate players under $25 average bet? Which part is false?
Yes, that part is false. It's not an educated guess, it's knowledge. Kinda wonder if you ever played at an Mlife property.
Quote: kewljSounds like you had a blast. I love how you hit many of the small off the beaten path properties like Lucky Club, railroad Pass, Joker's Wild, Eldorado, ect. No Club Fortune? Sounds like you drove right by it on the way to Railroad Pass. I think you would have enjoyed it. Low limit place ($2 or $3 minimums), decent Blackjack with sometimes very good promotions, good machine play opportunities, with outstanding bounce back mailers. Pretty good little diner like café.
A comment about your win/loss statement. I know from a pit friend that if you have been observed 'ratholing chips', casinos will often credit any unaccounted for chips to you which could greatly inflate what they are recording as your win totals.
Thanks! Yeah it was great winning, but I considered it a business trip. No sight seeing, no shows. Just tables, and meals. And yeah, some of the small props wondered why I was there. I look very young, and was IDed about 80% of the time. Why is the tourist by himself and not on the strip? Railroad Pass was WAY out there. I made a list of places to hit. Never heard of Club Fortune, have to keep it mind for next time. I love $3 minimums. The pit doesn't like when I start betting $100 and taking insurance on those games for some odd reason.
I don't rathole chips, it's not something that has much utiity for me at this point. But on one occassion at another place that was allowing me to count, I was straightly asked if I had put blacks in my pocket. Apparantly, they couldn't account for some and I was automatically suspected of hiding them. So I guess it makes sense that they may have attributed all their poor accounting to me hiding chips.
Funny thing to say at the table if you're a red chipper---I hate blacks. You win $100 u want green and red, sometimes they want to give u black. Can't bet those. Lot of times I bet 95-99 on two hands to avoid checks play. Dealers hate when u get blackjack on $97.
Quote: SonuvabishIt's good to hear now two people think that an SAR is nothing to worry about from the bank.
Now when you say you were overrated at the casino, and there could have been good intentions in my case before the backoff, do you think SARs are any worry there? Thanks Babs for the info.
SAR's can be a concern based on your reported income. Anyone saying they are not a concern are wrong. What they should be saying is they are not a concern if you can justify them. If you can't and may have multiple questionable transactions over the course of a year, you have reason to be concerned.
Bottom line is if you keep good records and are a good citizen and report all income, sleep well tonight. If you don't, try to avoid them.
Quote: AxelWolfLOL I don't get to that many different places in 3 months. WTF is Bighorn?
Bighorn is one of those hole-in-the-wall casinos; it's a few blocks east of Jerry's Nugget, IIRC.
As for "how many places can you hit in one day," you should check out my TR from 2014:
Quote: ThatDonGuyOn Monday, I, er, well, I, um, rented a car to get to the hotels left on my "list". I rented a Focus, which was a little small for me; I should have paid the extra $4/day for a Camry or Fusion. Anyway, here's what I managed to reach between 8:30 AM and about 3 PM, from The D (which is where the rental car office was); M, Green Valley, Fiesta Henderson, El Dorado, Railroad Pass, Club Fortune, Jokers Wild, Longhorn (after lunch at Original Tommy's next door - I don't see why everyone loves the chili; it's bland and congeals quickly), Bighorn, Jerry's Nugget, Silver Nugget, Opera House, Lucky Club, Fiesta Rancho, Rampart, Suncoast, and Red Rock
Okay, to be fair, I didn't actually gamble in any of them - in most cases, it was, park the car, go inside, get a player's club card if I didn't have one, get a $5 chip (I didn't realize until I got there that some of these places - for example, Opera House - didn't have chips), see if they have dice (M didn't have their own dice, but they did have Planet Hollywood and Cosmopolitan dice, which I thought was strange as neither of those casinos carried their own dice), and leave.
Quote: BozSAR's can be a concern based on your reported income. Anyone saying they are not a concern are wrong. What they should be saying is they are not a concern if you can justify them. If you can't and may have multiple questionable transactions over the course of a year, you have reason to be concerned.
Bottom line is if you keep good records and are a good citizen and report all income, sleep well tonight. If you don't, try to avoid them.
Obviously you didn't read the thread. I posed the question as to the probability of SARs being generated in the first place based on the described transactions.
Quote: ThatDonGuyBighorn is one of those hole-in-the-wall casinos; it's a few blocks east of Jerry's Nugget, IIRC.
As for "how many places can you hit in one day," you should check out my TR from 2014:Quote: ThatDonGuyOn Monday, I, er, well, I, um, rented a car to get to the hotels left on my "list". I rented a Focus, which was a little small for me; I should have paid the extra $4/day for a Camry or Fusion. Anyway, here's what I managed to reach between 8:30 AM and about 3 PM, from The D (which is where the rental car office was); M, Green Valley, Fiesta Henderson, El Dorado, Railroad Pass, Club Fortune, Jokers Wild, Longhorn (after lunch at Original Tommy's next door - I don't see why everyone loves the chili; it's bland and congeals quickly), Bighorn, Jerry's Nugget, Silver Nugget, Opera House, Lucky Club, Fiesta Rancho, Rampart, Suncoast, and Red Rock
Okay, to be fair, I didn't actually gamble in any of them - in most cases, it was, park the car, go inside, get a player's club card if I didn't have one, get a $5 chip (I didn't realize until I got there that some of these places - for example, Opera House - didn't have chips), see if they have dice (M didn't have their own dice, but they did have Planet Hollywood and Cosmopolitan dice, which I thought was strange as neither of those casinos carried their own dice), and leave.
I tried to go to the Silver Nugget on my last day, but I couldn't find it. GPS couldn't locate it. Google gave me the wrong address (same thing happened with Alamo, but I eventually got the right address). So where is it?
Quote: SonuvabishObviously you didn't read the thread. I posed the question as to the probability of SARs being generated in the first place based on the described transactions.
Man, you're being a dick to a lot of people in this thread.
Quote: SonuvabishIt's good to hear now two people think that an SAR is nothing to worry about from the bank.
Now when you say you were overrated at the casino, and there could have been good intentions in my case before the backoff, do you think SARs are any worry there? Thanks Babs for the info.
Sorry, what part of "it's good to hear that two people....." Did I miss when I didn't read the thread?
Quote: BozAnd as you were advised above, SAR's CAN be an issue based on how you reported the extra 2K. Try telling the IRS you told the teller you went to Vegas as you explained above. See I did read the thread. Advise as posted was good, you just didn't want to hear it.
So you're saying, in disagreement with two others, that the deposit likely generated a SAR?
Quote: SonuvabishSo you're saying, in disagreement with two others, that the deposit likely generated a SAR?
Yes, I am saying that the possibility is there. Ignoring it IF you have something to hide is unwise. But also as I posted, IF you don't, why even be worried? SAR's are part of many of our daily business transactions at banks. Only if we have something to hide and can't justify them should we be concerned. I am sure you have nothing to hide, so no worries.
The concerns come in at casinos where some don't want their actions recorded, not to screw the IRS, but instead to keep off casino radar. But again, with your play, I'm sure you already know that.
Quote: BozYes, I am saying that the possibility is there. Ignoring it IF you have something to hide is unwise. But also as I posted, IF you don't, why even be worried? SAR's are part of many of our daily business transactions at banks. Only if we have something to hide and can't justify them should we be concerned. I am sure you have nothing to hide, so no worries.
The concerns come in at casinos where some don't want their actions recorded, not to screw the IRS, but instead to keep off casino radar. But again, with your play, I'm sure you already know that.
You're disagreeing with them, or you're saying that anything's possible? I made this deposit several days ago and 2015 taxes are due in April of 2016...why do you keep insinuating I am hiding something, it's not only insulting, it's chronologically impossible.
Nobody's trolling. Nobody's making personal insults. So far. People are having a discussion that includes some disagreement. Assume positive intent, guys, and we'll all enjoy each other more and learn from each other.
You may now return to your regularly scheduled program. Thank you for your kind attention! :)
Quote: beachbumbabsOk, I'm going to step in for a second. It's obvious to me over the past couple days that Son is working hard at being a member in good standing and being decent to other members in this and other threads. He's also very quick to challenge anything that gets said to him, says things very directly and bluntly. So how about if everybody, including Son, takes a step back from any sarcasm or characterization of other folks in discussions and we might get to keep him around for a while?
Nobody's trolling. Nobody's making personal insults. So far. People are having a discussion that includes some disagreement. Assume positive intent, guys, and we'll all enjoy each other more and learn from each other.
You may now return to your regularly scheduled program. Thank you for your kind attention! :)
Thank you for the kind words.
Quote: SonuvabishYes, that part is false. It's not an educated guess, it's knowledge. Kinda wonder if you ever played at an Mlife property.
Did some looking around, looks like many of them are now rating players under $25 a hand. Used to be different.
Haven't played (blackjack) at an MGM casino for several months...although trying to get rated was never an issue -- playing unrated was the issue.
I don't think Boz is insinuating anything. He's simply saying if you aren't hiding anything it's nothing to worry about, and if you are (or are going to be) hiding something, then it might pose an issue down the road.
Quote: RSDid some looking around, looks like many of them are now rating players under $25 a hand. Used to be different.
Haven't played (blackjack) at an MGM casino for several months...although trying to get rated was never an issue -- playing unrated was the issue.
I don't think Boz is insinuating anything. He's simply saying if you aren't hiding anything it's nothing to worry about, and if you are (or are going to be) hiding something, then it might pose an issue down the road.
Curious as to where you found this information. Doesn't seem like it's something you could google. I can't claim any experience, but I doubt it was ever their policy t ignore people, rather than to rate them poorly. Like I said, they'd have no idea what anyone's average bet was unless the table minimum was at least $25.
Boz is definitely insinuating. He won't straight disagree with the others or comment as to the probability of a SAR; no one can debate that anything is possible, especially in the realm of SARs since they are shrouded in vaguery. He knows I'd like to avoid SARs. Maybe I'm wrong, but they seem to increase the audit risk. He was harassing me in another thread. Don't worry, IF you're not hiding anything...I'm sure your not..with your level of play, I'm sure you already know people don't avoid SARs to screw the IRS. Yeah, definitely another legitimate post.
Quote: Sonuvabish
Boz is definitely insinuating. He won't straight disagree with the others or comment as to the probability of a SAR; no one can debate that anything is possible, especially in the realm of SARs since they are shrouded in vaguery. He knows I'd like to avoid SARs. Maybe I'm wrong, but they seem to increase the audit risk. He was harassing me in another thread. Don't worry, IF you're not hiding anything...I'm sure your not..with your level of play, I'm sure you already know people don't avoid SARs to screw the IRS. Yeah, definitely another legitimate post.
Let me say I am not insinuating anything. I don't know or care about your finances or tax records. I just stated that they can or can't be something to worry about but the rules on them are what they are. Telling a bank teller that you went to Vegas isn't going to make the difference if they file one or not, at least in my experience. As for increasing audit risk, I have no clue, but I do know nobody wants an audit, even if you are 100% accurate in all your records. So in that case, yes you are best to do anything and everything possible to avoid one. If that means making smaller deposits over time, it's probably a good idea.
No different than what most do in a casino trying t avoid them, even if it is for ID and not tax reasons.
Sorry you feel I am attacking you, I'm not. In keeping with the wise words of BBB above, lets disagree and keep it civil.
Quote: SonuvabishCurious as to where you found this information. Doesn't seem like it's something you could google. I can't claim any experience, but I doubt it was ever their policy t ignore people, rather than to rate them poorly. Like I said, they'd have no idea what anyone's average bet was unless the table minimum was at least $25.
I believe it was common knowledge -- I'd seen it posted about on forums. I think I saw a sign in or near a pit in MGM Grand stating they wouldn't rate players below $25 average bet (I know I saw it somewhere, not sure if it was MGM Grand or elsewhere).
http://www.vegastripping.com/news/blog/4685/shut-up-and-take-my-m-life-card/
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gaming-business/mgm-mirage/17222-mlife-sucks/
Quote: AxiomOfChoice...
Mlife does appear to be geared towards higher bettors though. At most casinos they will not even rate you if you are under $25/hand, and I did not get a host until I was around $100/hand.
https://www.blackjackinfo.com/knowledge-base/las-vegas/comps-for-blackjack/
Quote: 1BBA sign in the pit essentially saying that your business is not wanted? Strange.
I agree, but it's the same on VP machines that either don't have a card reader (see NYNY) or state $50 for 1 Tier Credit.
Quote: SonuvabishI had already been flagged at an MLife property and flat bet. Before I went to Vegas, I started a thread and they said it was 99% likely I would be tapped if I tried to play rated at a different MLife property. Is this accurate?
Ah I see. I have never been flat bet at an MLife property before, so I don't have any advice for that point forward. I'm curious how big you were playing when you got flat bet? I have heard of a guy getting flat bet at Mirage, but he was spreading $100-$2000! In any case, if you don't hand over your card, your previous incident shouldn't affect your current play, especially at a different property.
Quote: RSI believe it was common knowledge -- I'd seen it posted about on forums. I think I saw a sign in or near a pit in MGM Grand stating they wouldn't rate players below $25 average bet (I know I saw it somewhere, not sure if it was MGM Grand or elsewhere).
http://www.vegastripping.com/news/blog/4685/shut-up-and-take-my-m-life-card/
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gaming-business/mgm-mirage/17222-mlife-sucks/
https://www.blackjackinfo.com/knowledge-base/las-vegas/comps-for-blackjack/
I have heard this from a pit boss at the Bellagio craps pit. I think it varies by the property. You really think Luxor or Excalibur is going to refuse to rate someone betting red chips? That's pretty much their whole customer base...
Quote: RSI believe it was common knowledge -- I'd seen it posted about on forums. I think I saw a sign in or near a pit in MGM Grand stating they wouldn't rate players below $25 average bet (I know I saw it somewhere, not sure if it was MGM Grand or elsewhere).
http://www.vegastripping.com/news/blog/4685/shut-up-and-take-my-m-life-card/
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gaming-business/mgm-mirage/17222-mlife-sucks/
https://www.blackjackinfo.com/knowledge-base/las-vegas/comps-for-blackjack/
I see. Agree with 1BB. I find this very strange. But I stand corrected.
Quote: AcesAndEightsAh I see. I have never been flat bet at an MLife property before, so I don't have any advice for that point forward. I'm curious how big you were playing when you got flat bet? I have heard of a guy getting flat bet at Mirage, but he was spreading $100-$2000! In any case, if you don't hand over your card, your previous incident shouldn't affect your current play, especially at a different property.
I have heard this from a pit boss at the Bellagio craps pit. I think it varies by the property. You really think Luxor or Excalibur is going to refuse to rate someone betting red chips? That's pretty much their whole customer base...
I was flat bet red/green chipping with an unremarkable spread. I put in a lot of hours and camped at the same joint, and did not vary my schedule, patterns, or mannerisms. I assume they decided to no longer tolerate it and it was due more to accumulation than to any particular bet size.
As to your second point, that's kinda what I was thinking. Obviously, if a property has no tables under $25, the players who want to bet under $25 won't be rated. If a place has only 1 $25 table out of 10, it makes no sense why they would ignore 9 full tables, and only pay attention to one empty one.
Quote: Sonuvabish...If a place has only 1 $25 table out of 10, it makes no sense why they would ignore 9 full tables, and only pay attention to one empty one.
You think casinos want to make sense? =P
Looks like you had an awesome trip, congrats and hope it was fun.
Did the supervisor break the rules and put me in at $25 even though I was betting $15? Maybe.
Quote: Sonuvabish
Loved reading your trip. But perhaps your spread (although great) was a little toooo great? But anyways it was a great read and very true and useful. But to be honest I'd keep that 2K away from the bank. Sure it's under the 10K mark where you don't have to report it...but check this out:
A widow kept depositing 2K to 9K once a month to her bank (her husband died of cancer and on his deathbed told her he had around 180K hidden away from his casino winnings.) and then got hit by the I.R.S. who literally told her that unless she forfeited the money she was looking at the minimum of a 250K fine and 2 to 5 years in Federal Prison.
So if you must...fly under the radar and stash elsewhere while keeping it hush-hush. I'm not advising on breaking the law...but what seperates "Big Brother/I.R.S./GOV" from the Mob and Cartels?!
All others will rate any bet amount.
A pit boss at the Bellagio specifically told me that they had recently changed the rule. I have been rated there many times just betting $10-$15 a hand.
What we (I) don't like about CTR's is the inconvenience. They slow your transaction, whether at bank or casino down. Also, at the casino, there is the issue of ID, which of course many of us, don't want to share with the casino.
What I don't like about SAR's, is that often you aren't even aware of them. Again, they are easily explained, and a generating a few is no big deal. Even many are easily explained. But you don't want to HAVE to explain them. That is time and money. So it is better to keep both these report to a minimum.
When dealing with my banks, I make sure they are aware of whom I am and what I do for a living, so that transactions below the CTR levels but large enough for SAR levels won't be so 'suspicious'. It is my understanding that banks actually have a pretty good amount of leeway in this area, so if you take the 'suspicion' element away you will generate much fewer of these reports.
Even as a recreational, lower limit player, I would think a little communication with your bank can eliminate that 'suspicion' element that is part of SAR's. If you withdrawn or deposit 3 or 4 grand, don't be afraid to mention to the teller that you are heading to Vegas or just returning from Vegas, or even to and from your local casino.
Now as far as casinos, they over issue SAR's in my opinion. Larger cash transactions are part of their business and very common. The only time they should be issuing SAR's is if they suspect the player is breaking up transactions to avoid a CTR which they are required to do by law. Even that should be done sparingly, IMO.
Quote: kewljAs a professional player, some SAR's and CTR's are no big deal. As a matter of fact, CTR's can help document your claim of being a professional player.
What we (I) don't like about CTR's is the inconvenience. They slow your transaction, whether at bank or casino down. Also, at the casino, there is the issue of ID, which of course many of us, don't want to share with the casino.
What I don't like about SAR's, is that often you aren't even aware of them. Again, they are easily explained, and a generating a few is no big deal. Even many are easily explained. But you don't want to HAVE to explain them. That is time and money. So it is better to keep both these report to a minimum.
When dealing with my banks, I make sure they are aware of whom I am and what I do for a living, so that transactions below the CTR levels but large enough for SAR levels won't be so 'suspicious'. It is my understanding that banks actually have a pretty good amount of leeway in this area, so if you take the 'suspicion' element away you will generate much fewer of these reports.
Even as a recreational, lower limit player, I would think a little communication with your bank can eliminate that 'suspicion' element that is part of SAR's. If you withdrawn or deposit 3 or 4 grand, don't be afraid to mention to the teller that you are heading to Vegas or just returning from Vegas, or even to and from your local casino.
Now as far as casinos, they over issue SAR's in my opinion. Larger cash transactions are part of their business and very common. The only time they should be issuing SAR's is if they suspect the player is breaking up transactions to avoid a CTR which they are required to do by law. Even that should be done sparingly, IMO.
Well based on that, I shouldn't have any SARs. Told my bank about Vegas both times. Unfortunately, they don't know I am an AP.
Quote: Edge21Quote: Sonuvabish
Loved reading your trip. But perhaps your spread (although great) was a little toooo great? But anyways it was a great read and very true and useful. But to be honest I'd keep that 2K away from the bank. Sure it's under the 10K mark where you don't have to report it...but check this out:
A widow kept depositing 2K to 9K once a month to her bank (her husband died of cancer and on his deathbed told her he had around 180K hidden away from his casino winnings.) and then got hit by the I.R.S. who literally told her that unless she forfeited the money she was looking at the minimum of a 250K fine and 2 to 5 years in Federal Prison.
So if you must...fly under the radar and stash elsewhere while keeping it hush-hush. I'm not advising on breaking the law...but what seperates "Big Brother/I.R.S./GOV" from the Mob and Cartels?!
Ty for the compliment. My bet spread relates to my BR. I can't afford to play higher limit games. On the other hand, playing lower limit games isn't worth enough if I don't bet big when the count is high; my BR isn't that low. I could just set a max bet at +1, but it's more profitable and less risky to do what I do. Result is sometimes an intoerable spread. I'll adapt to a better way in time, if I'm not 86ed across the board first.
I've never deposited anywhere close to 9K. Had an almost 5K deposit just this once, but other than that, as far as cash, my deposits are always under 2K per week. Never 4 weeks of 2K...just a few hundred per week usually. Those smaller, semi-regular deposits are a bit worrisome from a SAR standpoint, but I don't think it's enough to worry about yet. I honestly have been thinking about emptying my account and stashing it. Reading about civil forfeiture and people losing all their money for absolutely no reason, then being unable to get it back because they can't prove they are innocent. The way the system is set up, APing is not a well respected enterprise, nor is it fairly treated.
