Question about DD with another player playing two hands.

I'm new to AP. I'm looking through 'Professional Blackjack' by Standford Wong about when to play multiple hands and I'm trying to wrap my head around what he's saying. I was playing double deck the other day with only one other player who was sitting at first base and playing two hands. I don't know if there's an exception to a double deck game since the count can change so quickly with each new hand dealt (face down except for hit cards BTW). Quoting Standford Wong where he summarizes the section on playing multiple hands "Generally, if you are alone with the dealer you are better off playing one hand, and if there are other players you are better off playing two hands when you have an edge." Quoting from the sections before the concluding remarks by Wong "With two or more other hands played besides your own, you definitely have a larger expected win rate playing two hands yourself when you have an edge." "If there are other players at the table with you, your adding an extra hand adds a smaller proportion to the total cards used on one round. You would bet 50% more with two optimally-sized bets instead of one, but with one other player you would use only 33% more cards per round. This means you are better off playing two hands if there is another customer at your table and you have an edge. Do not go to three hands of your own...etc." Do you know how many decks of a game Wong is referring to with these percentages of cards used? Thanks!

So if the count goes high enough, should I play two hands with the other person at my table is already playing two hands as well? What are your opinion/experiences with this?

Quote: Wino

So if the count goes high enough, should I play two hands with the other person at my table is already playing two hands as well? What are your opinion/experiences with this?

I read through your posts several times and fail to appreciate Wong's conclusions. Obviously, playing 2 hands in + counts will have a higher return than playing 1. But you would be betting 2 hands in negative counts as well which negates the advantage. No casino I'm aware of is going to let you spread to 2 hands later in the decks when you start after a new shuffle with 1.

Even if there is some advantage to always playing 2 hands instead of 1 hand depending on how many players are at the table, I would think it would be exceptionally small compared to just playing 1 hand with double the wager. Counting, wagering and making index plays correctly and staying off the radar is way more important to concentrate on than gaining a tiny edge.

Quote: Wino

So if the count goes high enough, should I play two hands with the other person at my table is already playing two hands as well? What are your opinion/experiences with this?

If the cards are good, you want more of them. Spreading to 2 hands can be a good idea.

Different casinos and different tables will have different rules about mid-shoe entry. I believe a lot of places are more flexible on the shoe games (6d & 8d, typically) than on the handheld (SD/DD) games.

Quote: Dieter

If the cards are good, you want more of them. Spreading to 2 hands can be a good idea.

Different casinos and different tables will have different rules about mid-shoe entry. I believe a lot of places are more flexible on the shoe games (6d & 8d, typically) than on the handheld (SD/DD) games.

Yes, very few casinos dis-allow spreading to multiple hands on shoe games. Maybe in AC where NMSE is much more common.

Quote: Greasyjohn

No casino I'm aware of is going to let you spread to 2 hands later in the decks when you start after a new shuffle with 1.
.

What? Of course they will.

Spreading to 2 hands in DD is 'allowed' in most place, but not tolerated well at DD (in Vegas).

Most Vegas DD games are either severely hawked and protected or down right 'counter traps'. If you are going to spread horizontally on top of that, you won't last long at most properties.

You would be better off saving spreading from single hand to multiple hands to the shoe games. If you feel you must vary hands in DD, I would recommend reverse spreading, playing 2 hands off the top and dropping to one in negative counts.

Quote: Wino

So if the count goes high enough, should I play two hands with the other person at my table is already playing two hands as well? What are your opinion/experiences with this?

There's other good advice about the practicality of spreading to multiple hands on a Vegas DD game. To try to supplement this (good) advice to answer what I perceive your questions are I'll submit the following:

1) Another player spreading to 2 hands doesn't affect you in the long run. It's the same as 2 other players playing 1 hand. We could get in to the finer details about the number of players at a table, but to keep it at a high level you needn't be concerned with other players at the table when you're playing. Your only decisions are "Can I spread to 2 hands?" and "Should I spread to 2 hands?" i.e. will you get heat/backed off?

2) My opinion, is if you can say yes to the 2 questions in #1, then you should. Playing more than one hand (in positive scenarios) will absolutely raise your expected win. This is something that some people have debated over though... If you play more hands you'll get less rounds! Well, my opinion is I'd rather play more hands now while I have a KNOWN count/advantage, than gamble that the later rounds will also yield a positive edge. When you have a TC, and you place a bet, that puts EV (or really CE) in your pocket. Here's an example of why I'd rather play more hands now than get more 'rounds' in:

A few rounds to go you have a TC +3 at a double deck game (RC +3, 1 deck left). You decide to play 1 hand to try to get an extra round (fearing 2 hands might pull the cut card)... You place 1 bet for $100 dollars and your advantage, let's say from a typical -.5% game, is 1%. You just made $1, in the long run... before the cards are even dealt. So let's say it comes out 20 v 20... -4 to RC, and push on that particular hand. Now what's your next bet, for that extra round you saved? Table min... because it's -1. What I'm proposing is this: The TC is +3, bet 2 hands of $75, each with that known 1% advantage. Now you just made $1.50, in the long run. The same thing could happen, and the count could tank, but you just made more money in a KNOWN good count instead of guessing/hoping/etc that the count will still be good on later rounds. Summed up, to me it's about getting the money in while you know it's good instead of preserving more round where you don't know if it will be good or not.

3) If you play another hand off the top you're exposing it to all of the frequencies such as your original hand. This, in essence, becomes just another hand that your bankroll is playing (unrelated to your original bet other than the co-variance of playing it at the same table). The "math" best way to do this is to only spread to more hands when the count is really good, but as kewlj pointed out, this will often bring the heat/hammer. Thus, the "practical" best way to do this would be to negative spread the hands as kewlj suggested. This way you're taking that 2nd hang out from being exposed to all of the negative counts the first hand will see, but at the same time you're starting the shoe off w/ 2 hands so if/when the count rises you can play it with less heat. This is basically a cover play in which the cost is exposing that 2nd hand to the non positive count at the beginning of each shoe.

4) I'll double check my copy later tonight, but I also believe Wong discusses that you shouldn't spread past 3 hands as well. Something else to keep in mind when spreading (since you might agree with my #2 and say okay spread max hands while I have the known advantage).

A big thanks to everyone's advice. Thanks Romes for going into detail.

Sincerely,

Quote: AxelWolf

What? Of course they will.

What percentage of stores would you say allow this? Are you talking about 6 & 8 deck shoes. I was talking about DD. And it's so common to not allow spreading to 2 hands when you started with 1 that I don't even try. If they don't have a nmde sign, then that implies that you can spread to 2 hands when starting with 1?

I'll sometimes start with 2 hands and drop to 1 in negative counts. But I never start with 1 and spread to 2.

(Edit: I just noticed there are some posts above that answer some of my questions. Thanks, all.)