Bankroll required for $100 BJ

Question for the black chip players: what is your usual buy-in at the table in order to 'stay afloat'? Do you always have the same buy-in regardless of your total bankroll?

For a card counter or for a sucker?

For a card counter: At least 100 max bets, preferably 200 max bets.

For a sucker: Doesn't matter, whatever you're willing to lose. A sucker will not "stay afloat," they will eventually lose all their money. Overall variance expectations can be calculated if there's a session length in mind.

Quote: sc15

For a card counter or for a sucker?

For a card counter: At least 100 max bets, preferably 200 max bets.

For a sucker: Doesn't matter, whatever you're willing to lose. A sucker will not "stay afloat," they will eventually lose all their money. Overall variance expectations can be calculated if there's a session length in mind.

Thanks - that answers my thread title. What about when you rock up to the table? Do you normally start with $1k? $5k? more?

Quote: Uranium235

Thanks - that answers my thread title. What about when you rock up to the table? Do you normally start with $1k? $5k? more?

depends on how unlucky you are getting and how long you plan on playing for. you could buy in for 5k and have it be gone in 10 minutes or buy in for 500 and have it last all night. Do you plan on rebuying if you lose? 2k should last you awhile if you aren't getting too unlucky.

Quote: Uranium235

Thanks - that answers my thread title. What about when you rock up to the table? Do you normally start with $1k? $5k? more?

Doesn't matter.

All that matters is how much you got in your pocket. You're allowed to buy in for more at any time.

For practical purposes, if you're going to play $100 / hand, I would say buy in for $500 or $1000, so you got a few units to work with.

If you want to be a jackass and try to show off (and people DO do this in the casino), buy in for $5K or $10K. There's really very little reason to buy in for more than like 10 units, unless you're a counter who plans on ramping up the bets and don't want to buy in more just to ramp up your bets.

Quote: sc15

For a card counter or for a sucker?

For a card counter: At least 100 max bets, preferably 200 max bets.

For a sucker: Doesn't matter, whatever you're willing to lose. A sucker will not "stay afloat," they will eventually lose all their money. Overall variance expectations can be calculated if there's a session length in mind.

Interesting first line. I never even considered he was talking anything other than counter. I guess just me and what I do (plus several bottles of cheap champagne that Eastside cannery gave out today in lui of the wallet with cash they were supposed to give away...now I remember why I gave up drinking...lol)

Anyway, I like your 200 max bet answer better, sc15. All those great books from the 80' and 90's, use that 100 max bet rules, but it's not the 80's and 90's any longer. Games are much worse, meaning IHA are bigger, translates into bigger spreads needed, as well as bigger swings. I think anyone still playing to that 100 max bet rule is now playing dangerously high RoR. You know this sc15....I can tell from your posts...just saying it for the benefit of OP (and others).

Now buy-ins. At $5 & $10 games, people usually buy in for $100 (that's 10-20 minimum bets). At $25 tables which is mostly what I play, most people buy in for $300-500 (that's 12-20 minimum bets). $100 tables are above my current level, but using these same numbers, I would guess $1000 to be a very common buy in.

As a counter, it's a good idea to do what most people do. However, I don't. I actually don't buy in very often these days, having gone to the chip inventory method of entering games, especially for my regular rotation of games, BUT, when I do buy in, I buy in for 4 minimum wagers. $100 at a $25 table.

Benefits of this: 1.) first impression, which is that you don't have much money and are no threat. 2.) easy get-away, whether it be when count tanks and you want to change tables or if you should do something later on that draws heat. The fewer chips you have the better. 3.) and this is the big one. You are likely to lose this first small buy in. Even during winning sessions, you may very well lose this first buy in. This means you get to re-buy in. Maybe several times. This is huge. It looks like you are chasing losses. Even if the count goes good and you start betting bigger, that only makes it look like you are chasing losses even more. Small buy ins are a great opportunity for you to define yourself, or more precisely, what you want the casino to think you are. Unlike cover plays which always have a cost, this is cover with no cost. It's buying you time and time is money. :)

Thanks both; the logic of around 10x the std wager seems to make sense.

Sc15 make an interesting point about looking like a jackass turning up with $5k or more. Does this at least have the benefit of comp likelihood?

Quote: Uranium235

Thanks both; the logic of around 10x the std wager seems to make sense.

Sc15 make an interesting point about looking like a jackass turning up with $5k or more. Does this at least have the benefit of comp likelihood?

Large buy-ins used to have a benefit as far as comps. Those days are gone. In part, thanks to Max Rubin's "Comp City", which revealed this strategy.

I would actually disagree with sc15 on this one. If you big in for a bigger than 'normal' amount, it is almost a red flag or tip off that you may be betting bigger later, which of course is something counter's do. It's almost a warning to the pit, to keep an eye on this guy.

There is also the issue of CTR's. Buy-ins of $10k in a 24 hour period require the casino to acquire all your personal information. You don't want to do this until you HAVE to do this.

Quote: Uranium235

Thanks both; the logic of around 10x the std wager seems to make sense.

Sc15 make an interesting point about looking like a jackass turning up with $5k or more. Does this at least have the benefit of comp likelihood?

I was going to mention that but decided to skip it, because if you're counting, comps are the last thing you should be concerned about.

Nowadays buying in big isn't that helpful anyway. A few places it might help.

Quote: Uranium235

Thanks both; the logic of around 10x the std wager seems to make sense.

Sc15 make an interesting point about looking like a jackass turning up with $5k or more. Does this at least have the benefit of comp likelihood?

Nah, that's a very old myth.

Casino isn't that stupid. It used to work in the old days (for SLOT machines, not tables) before electronic rating systems. You could buy in for a bunch of tokens, unwrap em all and bring em back to the cage (preferably some of them separately w/o a card so it looks like you lost money), and get comped as a big slot player. But you could buy in for a $100K at the table (and you really can, the dealer will stand there and count out all 100K), but if you play $10 a hand you get rated as a $10 / hand player. And they'll probably file a SAR on you because it looks like you're doing some kind of money laundering.

Reminds of me that movie though, where the guy buys in for $300 to look like a big shot and finds out it's a $100 table LOL.

HOWEVER, if you get like a 50K line of credit and speak to a host, you may find that they'll extend you a room comp up front (and maybe even dinner, this will vary widely from place to place depending on their policies). When they find out you don't play up to that line of credit you won't get anything ever again, but it'll work once.

Quote: sc15

Nah, that's a very old myth.

Casino isn't that stupid. It used to work in the old days (for SLOT machines, not tables) before electronic rating systems. You could buy in for a bunch of tokens, unwrap em all and bring em back to the cage (preferably some of them separately w/o a card so it looks like you lost money), and get comped as a big slot player. But you could buy in for a $100K at the table (and you really can, the dealer will stand there and count out all 100K), but if you play $10 a hand you get rated as a $10 / hand player. And they'll probably file a SAR on you because it looks like you're doing some kind of money laundering.

Reminds of me that movie though, where the guy buys in for $300 to look like a big shot and finds out it's a $100 table LOL.

HOWEVER, if you get like a 50K line of credit and speak to a host, you may find that they'll extend you a room comp up front (and maybe even dinner, this will vary widely from place to place depending on their policies). When they find out you don't play up to that line of credit you won't get anything ever again, but it'll work once.

Speaking of that how did this all work out for you? You have learned a lot since september. You went from doubting to knowing.

sc15
Member since: Sep 28, 2014
Threads: 4
Posts: 271
Just wondering how marketing/hosts handle a new player coming in for the first time.

I anticipate ~ 8 hours of 1-5K / hand action on table games for the trip and want to get a comped room for 4 - 5 nights. I have history of this play at several vegas casinos, and am planning a trip to a non-vegas casino.

If I get a credit line (let's say 20K) approved, would I be able to get an up front comp for the room? What if I can't get the credit line? I find it kind of doubtful that a host would just take someone's word for it that they're going to play X amount and extend them a room.

Quote: AxelWolf

I was going to mention that but decided to skip it, because if you're counting, comps are the last thing you should be concerned about.

Nowadays buying in big isn't that helpful anyway. A few places it might help.

I'm gonna disagree with not being concerned about comps if you're not a local.

4 or 5 nights in a high end hotel + 3 meals a day can add up to a couple thousand in expenses every trip easily.

Sure, you can stay in a fleabag motel and stop by the grocery store and get a few days worth of canned food for < $100, but is that really how you want to live?

APing might not offer health insurance or a 401k as a benefit, but it offers free gourmet meals if you play your cards right.

Quote: AxelWolf

Speaking of that how did this all work out for you? You have learned a lot since september. You went from doubting to knowing.

sc15
Member since: Sep 28, 2014
Threads: 4
Posts: 271
Just wondering how marketing/hosts handle a new player coming in for the first time.

I anticipate ~ 8 hours of 1-5K / hand action on table games for the trip and want to get a comped room for 4 - 5 nights. I have history of this play at several vegas casinos, and am planning a trip to a non-vegas casino.

If I get a credit line (let's say 20K) approved, would I be able to get an up front comp for the room? What if I can't get the credit line? I find it kind of doubtful that a host would just take someone's word for it that they're going to play X amount and extend them a room.

Worked out great at one place I tried. Host didn't ask me any questions at all, they saw the credit line and I guess their policy allowed them to give me a room no questions asked. Another place kind of gave me the run around so I just hung up.

I haven't tried this in vegas casinos as I have a place I get RFB from, but I might try it in vegas after I get backed off from that place.

Quote: sc15

I'm gonna disagree with not being concerned about comps if you're not a local.

4 or 5 nights in a high end hotel + 3 meals a day can add up to a couple thousand in expenses every trip easily.

Sure, you can stay in a fleabag motel and stop by the grocery store and get a few days worth of canned food for < $100, but is that really how you want to live?

APing might not offer health insurance or a 401k as a benefit, but it offers free gourmet meals if you play your cards right.

There's far better ways to get that stuff without gaining attention or having to worry about it. If you get outed as a counter comps won't do you any good.

Sometimes big buyins do help, there's also a rat hole opportunity when you buy in big if one wishes to use that option. Losses and big buy in's can go a long way with a host. It all depends on many factors.

Recently a situation came up host blatantly said your not losing enough.

Quote: sc15

Worked out great at one place I tried. Host didn't ask me any questions at all, they saw the credit line and I guess their policy allowed them to give me a room no questions asked. Another place kind of gave me the run around so I just hung up.

I haven't tried this in vegas casinos as I have a place I get RFB from, but I might try it in vegas after I get backed off from that place.

The Hilton(or whatever you want to call it) will give you $500 in FP and a room with 10k approved CL. you have to play 100 a hand for 2 hrs or something like that.

Full table, slow playing and BR breaks will probably help if you want less risk.

I'm sure a host will add more to that.

Quote: AxelWolf

There's far better ways to get that stuff without gaining attention or having to worry about it. If you get outed as a counter comps won't do you any good.

Sometimes big buyins do help, there's also a rat hole opportunity when you buy in big if one wishes to use that option. Losses and big buy in's can go a long way with a host. It all depends on many factors.

Recently a situation came up host blatantly said your not losing enough.

Well, if you're playing at a place w/ a good game frequently you might want to play that unrated, but going with the "never play rated" strategy is unnecessarily paranoid and giving up value.

Also, depending on your stakes, playing rated is sometimes a necessity. Like if you're playing 2x5000 or 2x10000 on a game, you're going to CTR on your first hand, and even if you somehow avoid that by having a stockpile of chips, playing that kind of action without a card is going to cause you a problem. I don't know what the threshold is for that though.

Quote: sc15

Well, if you're playing at a place w/ a good game frequently you might want to play that unrated, but going with the "never play rated" strategy is unnecessarily paranoid and giving up value.

Also, depending on your stakes, playing rated is sometimes a necessity. Like if you're playing 2x5000 or 2x10000 on a game, you're going to CTR on your first hand, and even if you somehow avoid that by having a stockpile of chips, playing that kind of action without a card is going to cause you a problem. I don't know what the threshold is for that though.

I almost NEVER tell anyone to play unrated. The only time I like to say NEVER. Is when people ask if there's a winning fool proof betting system.

The main discussion was what should you buy in for.

Pros and cons to both big and small buys.

PS I don't play enough BJ anymore to worry about it.

If counting was the last AP available, I would probably do something else and occasionally mess around with it.

Quote: AxelWolf

I almost NEVER tell anyone to play unrated. The only time I like to say NEVER. Is when people ask if there's a winning fool proof betting system.

The main discussion was what should you buy in for.

Pros and cons to both big and small buys.

PS I don't play enough BJ anymore to worry about it.

If counting was the last AP available, I would probably do something else and occasionally mess around with it.

Actually, the irony is, if you plan on increasing your bet, buying in big will actually result in you getting LESS comps sometimes.

Ok folks I'm going to change tack for a moment.

I've always wondered how you literally bring significant cash (I.e. five digits +) to a casino. What is the modus operandi for big punters? Based on the forum threads, it sounds like a line of credit: how does one organise that? I presume it's quite rare for people nowadays to bring a bag full of cash (dangerous and cumbersome). Are you able to wire cash to their account?

Cheers

Quote: Uranium235

Ok folks I'm going to change tack for a moment.

I've always wondered how you literally bring significant cash (I.e. five digits +) to a casino. What is the modus operandi for big punters? Based on the forum threads, it sounds like a line of credit: how does one organise that? I presume it's quite rare for people nowadays to bring a bag full of cash (dangerous and cumbersome). Are you able to wire cash to their account?

Cheers

What do you consider large? Are you driving or flying?

20k... I wouldn't worry about it. $50k That's a different story. 100K forget about it.

PS. do you own any prescription pill bottles

Quote: AxelWolf

What do you consider large? Are you driving or flying?

20k... I wouldn't worry about it. $50k That's a different story. 100K forget about it.

PS. do you own any prescription pill bottles

Let's assume flying.

I've flown with $20K a few times, never had any trouble with security, other than a quick thumb-through of the money to make sure it was all money (and not something illegal or hidden in the money).

Carrying $20K cash isn't too difficult, as you can generally fit about $15K per pocket and $5K in a wallet.

Quote: Uranium235

Ok folks I'm going to change tack for a moment.

I've always wondered how you literally bring significant cash (I.e. five digits +) to a casino. What is the modus operandi for big punters? Based on the forum threads, it sounds like a line of credit: how does one organise that? I presume it's quite rare for people nowadays to bring a bag full of cash (dangerous and cumbersome). Are you able to wire cash to their account?

Cheers

You can call and set up a front money account.

And actually, for big players (I'm talking huge players, like 100K+), they rate you not just on your actual avg bet / hours at the table, but your bankroll (credit limit or front money deposit) as well. And you have to have some minimum of both to qualify for certain perks (like airfare reimbursement, or if you want to stay in like a 2 bedroom suite or a villa).

Quote: sc15

You can call and set up a front money account.

And actually, for big players (I'm talking huge players, like 100K+), they rate you not just on your actual avg bet / hours at the table, but your bankroll (credit limit or front money deposit) as well. And you have to have some minimum of both to qualify for certain perks (like airfare reimbursement, or if you want to stay in like a 2 bedroom suite or a villa).

How many times have you been to vegas?

I think your overestimating the amount needed to get special perks.

Quote: kewlj

Now buy-ins. At $5 & $10 games, people usually buy in for $100 (that's 10-20 minimum bets). At $25 tables which is mostly what I play, most people buy in for $300-500 (that's 12-20 minimum bets). $100 tables are above my current level, but using these same numbers, I would guess $1000 to be a very common buy in.

As a counter, it's a good idea to do what most people do. However, I don't. I actually don't buy in very often these days, having gone to the chip inventory method of entering games, especially for my regular rotation of games, BUT, when I do buy in, I buy in for 4 minimum wagers. $100 at a $25 table.

Benefits of this: 1.) first impression, which is that you don't have much money and are no threat. 2.) easy get-away, whether it be when count tanks and you want to change tables or if you should do something later on that draws heat. The fewer chips you have the better. 3.) and this is the big one. You are likely to lose this first small buy in. Even during winning sessions, you may very well lose this first buy in. This means you get to re-buy in. Maybe several times. This is huge. It looks like you are chasing losses. Even if the count goes good and you start betting bigger, that only makes it look like you are chasing losses even more. Small buy ins are a great opportunity for you to define yourself, or more precisely, what you want the casino to think you are. Unlike cover plays which always have a cost, this is cover with no cost. It's buying you time and time is money. :)

Benefits #1, #2, #3. I hope people appreciate how great this post is.

My laptop has an secondary drive bay where the 'blank' is a screwed in tray. I pack valuables in there when traveling. Also doesn't hurt that it's an out-dated looking monster of a unit that nobody would want to steal.

Quote: kewlj

Interesting first line. I never even considered he was talking anything other than counter. I guess just me and what I do (plus several bottles of cheap champagne that Eastside cannery gave out today in lui of the wallet with cash they were supposed to give away...now I remember why I gave up drinking...lol)

Anyway, I like your 200 max bet answer better, sc15. All those great books from the 80' and 90's, use that 100 max bet rules, but it's not the 80's and 90's any longer. Games are much worse, meaning IHA are bigger, translates into bigger spreads needed, as well as bigger swings. I think anyone still playing to that 100 max bet rule is now playing dangerously high RoR. You know this sc15....I can tell from your posts...just saying it for the benefit of OP (and others).

Now buy-ins. At $5 & $10 games, people usually buy in for $100 (that's 10-20 minimum bets). At $25 tables which is mostly what I play, most people buy in for $300-500 (that's 12-20 minimum bets). $100 tables are above my current level, but using these same numbers, I would guess $1000 to be a very common buy in.

As a counter, it's a good idea to do what most people do. However, I don't. I actually don't buy in very often these days, having gone to the chip inventory method of entering games, especially for my regular rotation of games, BUT, when I do buy in, I buy in for 4 minimum wagers. $100 at a $25 table.

Benefits of this: 1.) first impression, which is that you don't have much money and are no threat. 2.) easy get-away, whether it be when count tanks and you want to change tables or if you should do something later on that draws heat. The fewer chips you have the better. 3.) and this is the big one. You are likely to lose this first small buy in. Even during winning sessions, you may very well lose this first buy in. This means you get to re-buy in. Maybe several times. This is huge. It looks like you are chasing losses. Even if the count goes good and you start betting bigger, that only makes it look like you are chasing losses even more. Small buy ins are a great opportunity for you to define yourself, or more precisely, what you want the casino to think you are. Unlike cover plays which always have a cost, this is cover with no cost. It's buying you time and time is money. :)

Great, great Post.

Quote: AxelWolf

PS. do you own any prescription pill bottles

Lol

For stashing money in the room, the safe isn't always the best idea. I usually put 5K in the safe, then stash the rest in a couch cushion or something (You can just cut it open on the bottom side, they don't inspect that). Any upholstery that has a non-visible side that you can cut works.

Quote: sc15

For stashing money in the room, the safe isn't always the best idea. I usually put 5K in the safe, then stash the rest in a couch cushion or something (You can just cut it open on the bottom side, they don't inspect that). Any upholstery that has a non-visible side that you can cut works.

Have you ever considered that maintainence might replace the couch while you are out of the room? I know it's a bit paranoid, but I don't think it's far fetched.

How often do hotels replace furniture?
If the hotel plans to replace old couches with new ones, will they wait for the guest to check out first?

Quote: Avincow

Have you ever considered that maintainence might replace the couch while you are out of the room? I know it's a bit paranoid, but I don't think it's far fetched.

How often do hotels replace furniture?
If the hotel plans to replace old couches with new ones, will they wait for the guest to check out first?

I think that's very far fetched.

Replacing a couch is hardly considered something that's urgent, and would require that maintenance go into an occupied room to do it. If the toilet's leaking and flooding the floor below that's a different story. Guests are staying for like a week at most, they can wait to do it.

And the odds of maintenance replacing the couch is probably much lower than the in room safe being stolen from.

Seriously? Cut the cushion of the couch to store your $$$? Perhaps casinos aren't the most honorable bunches, but at least have some respect.

Quote: AxelWolf

I almost NEVER tell anyone to play unrated. The only time I like to say NEVER. Is when people ask if there's a winning fool proof betting system.

The main discussion was what should you buy in for.

Pros and cons to both big and small buys.

PS I don't play enough BJ anymore to worry about it.

If counting was the last AP available, I would probably do something else and occasionally mess around with it.

I played completely unrated since last year because I had too many 86s due to counting. I understand that card-counting is the worst game that an AP can choose. The edge from counting is razor-thin and brings up tons of heat. I am nowhere close to a professional but I just enjoy taking some money from the casinos. You have been APing for so many years. I am just wondering how you can keep your name clear from OSN and Griffin? (If you don't want to answer it, please just ignore the question)

Quote: Kickass

I played completely unrated since last year because I had too many 86s due to counting. I understand that card-counting is the worst game that an AP can choose. The edge from counting is razor-thin and brings up tons of heat. I am nowhere close to a professional but I just enjoy taking some money from the casinos. You have been APing for so many years. I am just wondering how you can keep your name clear from OSN and Griffin? (If you don't want to answer it, please just ignore the question)

Simply start talking about your Roulette system end with baccarat and DI.

There's casino's I don't go into.

I Avoid BJ unless it's something really good or im just messing around.