doubling on blackjack with 6:5 payout
Every time I've seen this question come up all the experts say don't do it. But at some point it has to be profitable. I will guess that with a +14 TC vs dealer 4,5 or 6 up-card it becomes profitable. But of course the dealer will probably call out the play and the suits will definitely take notice. If they review the tape or look at the discards the super-high count will be apparent. I can't think of a move that would bring more scrutiny upon yourself than this one--especially if it is successful. (Except plays like hitting your 19 because the dealer has been exposng his hole card and you know he has 20.)Quote: mcallister3200Is anyone aware if basic strategy changes in 6:5 blackjack shoe game if you are allowed to double on blackjack(thinking against 4-6 possibly). Or guidance on how to work out the math myself? I did find a thread on an old forum with a similar question but all the responses were the typical narrow minded, tunnel vision "never play 6:5 blackjack under any circumstances"
Of course, basic strategy would not change if you're allowed to double on blackjack. You would never do it, but I think you are asking about when you might do it.
Quote: GreasyjohnNo, because you wouldn't double on a blackjack in either game. And since the 6:5 vs 3:2 game only affects blackjacks--again, no.
You would be more apt to double a BJ on a 6:5 game than a 3:2 game. Hell, even if it paid 1:1, I think doubling a BJ will still have to have a super high index. The automatic win is very strong (100% EV...or in this case, 120% EV).
MC, think of it this way. A $100 wager would pay $120 (thus your EV is $120 for standing). The EV for doubling-down would have to exceed $120 in order for it to be the proper play. If you look at the charts n sh*t in the back of Don's BJA, you'll see the EV for doubling 11v4-6 is nowhere near 120% (same as $120 for $100 wager).
Quote:Why do you play 6:5? Do you have 3:2 available?
I think he's planning on using the martingale on a game with $1 to $100,000 limits.
Quote: odiousgambitis there even any BS chart anywhere for 6:5?
No need -- it's the same as 3:2 BJ. The only difference would be the index for doubling down a blackjack (a natural dealt snapper). But those numbers are so high, and quite suspicious if you do them, at least if you're even remotely getting heat.
Quote: RSNo need -- it's the same as 3:2 BJ. The only difference would be the index for doubling down a blackjack (a natural dealt snapper). But those numbers are so high, and quite suspicious if you do them, at least if you're even remotely getting heat.
That would be my concern as a player. One.. the TC would so rarely be high enough to justify this play, that this is all most an academic argument not a real world situation. Two..if you did double a BJ you will draw so much attention to yourself that you'll quickly be looking for another place to play. It's just not worth it in real life.
Quote: vendman1Quote: RSNo need -- it's the same as 3:2 BJ. The only difference would be the index for doubling down a blackjack (a natural dealt snapper). But those numbers are so high, and quite suspicious if you do them, at least if you're even remotely getting heat.
That would be my concern as a player. One.. the TC would so rarely be high enough to justify this play, that this is all most an academic argument not a real world situation. Two..if you did double a BJ you will draw so much attention to yourself that you'll quickly be looking for another place to play. It's just not worth it in real life.
Never double down a blackjack on this game. It's not even close. What's also not close is taking even money. Do it! Some casinos may not allow it but if they do, by all means take it.
Quote: 1BBQuote: vendman1Quote: RSNo need -- it's the same as 3:2 BJ. The only difference would be the index for doubling down a blackjack (a natural dealt snapper). But those numbers are so high, and quite suspicious if you do them, at least if you're even remotely getting heat.
That would be my concern as a player. One.. the TC would so rarely be high enough to justify this play, that this is all most an academic argument not a real world situation. Two..if you did double a BJ you will draw so much attention to yourself that you'll quickly be looking for another place to play. It's just not worth it in real life.
Never double down a blackjack on this game. It's not even close. What's also not close is taking even money. Do it! Some casinos may not allow it but if they do, by all means take it.
No casino allows you to take even money in a 6:5 game. (If a dealer allows it, it is against house policy.)
I don't understand why a casino won't allow you to take even money in a 6:5 game. The chances of having a BJ are the same as in a 3:2 game. If the dealer doesn't have it, they would pay you less in 6:5. ???
Quote: DnalorailedNo casino allows you to take even money in a 6:5 game. (If a dealer allows it, it is against house policy.)
Quote: DnalorailedI don't understand why a casino won't allow you to take even money in a 6:5 game. The chances of having a BJ are the same as in a 3:2 game. If the dealer doesn't have it, they would pay you less in 6:5. ???
Because if you make a $10 bet, and you insure a blackjack, and the dealer doesn't have a 10 in the hole, you lose your $5 insurance bet but are paid only $12 for your blackjack. You're net profit is $7 not the $10 you would have been paid in a 3:2 game. Even money only works if the dealer has a blackjack in a 6:5 game.
Quote: GreasyjohnBecause if you make a $10 bet, and you insure a blackjack, and the dealer doesn't have a 10 in the hole, you lose your $5 insurance bet but are paid only $12 for your blackjack. You're net profit is $7 not the $10 you would have been paid in a 3:2 game. Even money only works if the dealer has a blackjack in a 6:5 game.
Thanks. So if I understand correctly, with the same $10 bet, in a 3:2 game, you can either push, win $10 or win $15 depending on whether or not you buy insurance and whether or not dealer has BJ.
In the 6:5 game, your only options are to push or win $12. Why not give you the option to win $7 over just pushing. Granted it would not then be "even money", but it would be better than pushing. It could still be called "insurance" just not "even money".
I already know that mathematically, insurance is a bad bet and 6:5 BJ is a bad bet. Seems even worse without giving the player the option to "cut losses" if you will...
Quote: DnalorailedThanks. So if I understand correctly, with the same $10 bet, in a 3:2 game, you can either push, win $10 or win $15 depending on whether or not you buy insurance and whether or not dealer has BJ.
In the 6:5 game, your only options are to push or win $12. Why not give you the option to win $7 over just pushing. Granted it would not then be "even money", but it would be better than pushing. It could still be called "insurance" just not "even money".
I already know that mathematically, insurance is a bad bet and 6:5 BJ is a bad bet. Seems even worse without giving the player the option to "cut losses" if you will...
You can take insurance on a BJ in 6:5 games you just don't get paid even money for it. You pay 5 if dealer has blackjack you get 10 dollars on insurance bet and push normal bet if dealer doesn't have blackjack you lose insurance and get paid 12 for a net win of 7. It is not called even money because as you can see its not even money you just make a standard insurance wager.
Quote: DnalorailedThanks. So if I understand correctly, with the same $10 bet, in a 3:2 game, you can either push, win $10 or win $15 depending on whether or not you buy insurance and whether or not dealer has BJ.
In the 6:5 game, your only options are to push or win $12. Why not give you the option to win $7 over just pushing. Granted it would not then be "even money", but it would be better than pushing. It could still be called "insurance" just not "even money".
I already know that mathematically, insurance is a bad bet and 6:5 BJ is a bad bet. Seems even worse without giving the player the option to "cut losses" if you will...
The reason why the casino doesn't give you the option of paying you $7 (on a $10 bet in a 6:5 game) over just pushing? This is an erroneous question, because sometimes you don't push. You would win $10 if the dealer has a blackjack and you took insurance. Allowing the player to always win $7 would be terrible for the player.
BTW, in a SD 3:2 game with a $25 initial bet, you win $26 on average not taking even money.
Quote: DnalorailedWell my local casino only offers 6:5 BJ in the "party pit" during party pit hours with no insurance option. Only a stupid "High Tide" side bet. I've looked at it again and with no insurance option on a $10 bet, the player loses out on being able to push, win $7, win $10 or win $12. Your only options are to push or win $12. Sort of like an all or nothing proposition.
Insurance has an approx 7.4% negative EV on a 6D game, and a approx 5.8 negative EV on a SD game. So you should never take insurance unless you were card counting and the count warranted it.
Are the dealers any good at shielding their cards. Any opportunities for hole carding in these pits?
Quote: DnalorailedSo back to the OP's question: I think there would not be as much heat as one would think at a 6:5 BJ table. No one would suspect a professional card counter or AP to be playing there in the first place. Those tables are for beginners and folks looking to have a good time. Why not count unsuspectingly and double down on a BJ if the count merited it. They probably don't have restrictions on mid-shoe entry...hang back, count the cards, and get in when it's good. Maybe even do it while the dealers are up there dancing...lots of distractions.
Are the dealers any good at shielding their cards. Any opportunities for hole carding in these pits?
If you are card counting there are many good plays you would make long before the count warranted doubling on blackjack (in fact just about all of them). And by playing 6:5 you are giving up about 1.4% in EV over 3:2 Blackjack. Play 3:2 whenever possible. (I wouldn't play the game if 3:2 wasn't offered.)
Quote: GreasyjohnIf you are card counting there are many good plays you would make long before the count warranted doubling on blackjack (in fact just about all of them). And by playing 6:5 you are giving up about 1.4% in EV over 3:2 Blackjack. Play 3:2 whenever possible. (I wouldn't play the game if 3:2 wasn't offered.)
No disrespect. But seems like you are approaching this from a strictly math perspective. Is 6:5 blackjack an automatic negative EV game. Are there no opportunities to make money at 6:5 blackjack? You don't see any opportunities for going in for a few hands and making a few big plays? Are there any merits to my theories of less real world heat in these pits?
Being an advantage player also involves taking "advantage" of good situations. Beyond the textbooks, I think 6:5 blackjack could be advantageous.
Quote: DnalorailedNo disrespect. But seems like you are approaching this from a strictly math perspective. Is 6:5 blackjack an automatic negative EV game. Are there no opportunities to make money at 6:5 blackjack? You don't see any opportunities for going in for a few hands and making a few big plays? Are there any merits to my theories of less real world heat in these pits?
Being an advantage player also involves taking "advantage" of good situations. Beyond the textbooks, I think 6:5 blackjack could be advantageous.
6:5 blackjack can not be beat by card counting. With 3:2 blackjack card counting only provides about a 1% advantage, and that edge is destroyed with the -1.4% of the 6:5 rule. Less heat in a 6:5 game? Generally yes. Can you backcount and Wong in? Maybe. But you can do this in a 3:2 game. I don't think many APs play the 6:5 games because the 3:2 games are more advantageous. Why start out with such an uphill battle?
Quote: Greasyjohn6:5 blackjack can not be beat by card counting. With 3:2 blackjack card counting only provides about a 1% advantage, and that edge is destroyed with the -1.4% of the 6:5 rule. Less heat in a 6:5 game? Generally yes. Can you backcount and Wong in? Maybe. But you can do this in a 3:2 game. I don't think many APs play the 6:5 games because the 3:2 games are more advantageous. Why start out with such an uphill battle?
If the rest of the rules are good, I believe it could be beaten. It would require deep penetration and a very large spread among other things. Getting away with that spread may be a problem, 6/5 or no 6/5. Anyone care to sim it? Didn't somebody here just buy the software?
If I read Dnalorailed correctly I believe he was referring to other AP plays.
