When card counting how to run your max bet?

Is it better to run 1/2 your max bet on 2 hands = 1 max bet or to run 1 hand of your max bet? Just wondering how it effects variance and EV at higher TC?

Quote: avenged43

Is it better to run 1/2 your max bet on 2 hands = 1 max bet or to run 1 hand of your max bet? Just wondering how it effects variance and EV at higher TC?

There are some factors to be considered when spreading to two hands but I'll stick to your question. Because of covariance, it is recommended to bet 73% of your hand on the two spots. It's obviously not practical to make messy bets like that so everyone rounds up to 75%. One hand at $400 would be two hands at $300. If you like, it's 150% of the bet. Same thing.

There are some good threads on this if you care to search the forum.

not exactly sure what your saying, lets say my max bet was... 100$ per hand? how would you run it? 75 on 2 hands?

Yes, to keep the risk the same. It's because of the covariance of both hands being played against the same dealer's hand. If you could play two different tables at once or if you pooled your bankroll with a partner playing a different table, you could then bet $100 on each hand.

Quote: 1BB

Yes, to keep the risk the same. It's because of the covariance of both hands being played against the same dealer's hand. If you could play two different tables at once or if you pooled your bankroll with a partner playing a different table, you could then bet $100 on each hand.

So for the sake of me playing solo, should I be running 1 hand anyway? I can go daily to a local casino and I don't want a huge RoR because I want to start slow and work my way up. If I was trying to slowly work up some cash for full time card counting locally with lets say a 2k bankroll for now, if I want a super low RoR and was running ~5 or 10$ hands should I run 1 $10 hand at TC 2 or 2 $5? Yes I know the EV blows and it not "adequate" or w/e but gotta work with what God gives yea right? this is 8 deck 75% pen S17 if that matters. I have had a few days running high RoR and 1 night made 1.2k in 3 hands.... (idk what I was thinking but I got noticed IMMEDIATLY and quickly left.... it was hard rock... and they are tight asses...) I know my indices quite well and use I18 always.

1 at $12 or two at $9 each

What is your betting spread? Minimum and max bet?

Well since I'm being conservative, my spread right now is wong in at TC 2 10$ 3 15$ 4 20$, and I know the EV is low but I have 1k to invest in card counting for now and don't want a huge RoR.... I was playing hella agressive and with super high RoR and it payed off but I dont want the risk to be high anymore, me and friend started with 200$ and made $1,500 each in about 2 weeks wonging in on TC 8+ with good variance, but I have heard more then enough of people get the bad swing once and its gameover...

Quote: avenged43

I have 1k to invest in card counting for now and don't want a huge RoR

Please define what you consider to be an acceptably low risk of ruin.

FWIW, there's a guy I see playing 2 days a week in the hinterlands on about that bankroll; he's betting $5-$15 (supermax $25), and he's making money. Slowly, but he's making money.

I should be clear, a typical big bet for him is in the $7-8 range. It's rare to see him playing $15.

Quote: Dieter

Please define what you consider to be an acceptably low risk of ruin.

FWIW, there's a guy I see playing 2 days a week in the hinterlands on about that bankroll; he's betting $5-$15 (supermax $25), and he's making money. Slowly, but he's making money.

I should be clear, a typical big bet for him is in the $7-8 range. It's rare to see him playing $15.

Honestly I run more like tc 2 $5 tc 4 $10 tc 6 $15, but dont want to get flamed to all hell... as I have in previous posts... but I dont know if thats beneficial or not on a 1k bank roll? Maybe somone can give me insight as to what would be "Ideal" for a 1k bank roll wong in at TC2. Havent had anyone offer to run me the sim yet and dont have the software myself, everyone just blows me up with "Get a bigger bank roll" Which in my current situation is less then helpful....

Quote: avenged43

Honestly I run more like tc 2 $5 tc 4 $10 tc 6 $15

Since you're wonging out on low counts, that seems entirely reasonable. (I'm not doing math to back this up, however.) The fact that you're not playing-all helps significantly. (My acquaintance plays all.)

You haven't told us what you want for a low RoR, however... some people consider 5% high, some people consider 10% low.

Quote: Dieter

Since you're wonging out on low counts, that seems entirely reasonable. (I'm not doing math to back this up, however.) The fact that you're not playing-all helps significantly. (My acquaintance plays all.)

You haven't told us what you want for a low RoR, however... some people consider 5% high, some people consider 10% low.

10% is reasonable, I understand at 1k 1% is hard as shit... so 10% would be fine. Honestly my goal is to make it to where my bankroll is high enough that I can play 1% and make good EV as full time counter, right now I work a dead end part time job and I'm in medical school but doctor is not the job for me honestly =/

Quote: Dieter

Since you're wonging out on low counts, that seems entirely reasonable. (I'm not doing math to back this up, however.) The fact that you're not playing-all helps significantly. (My acquaintance plays all.)

You haven't told us what you want for a low RoR, however... some people consider 5% high, some people consider 10% low.

This doesn't seem very reasonable to me. So you're not worried about EV, but are you trying to play a break even game for experience, or actually make a little something at least? I've been running EV's in another thread the past few days or so and just from that your 5-15 spread (even if you're only wonging in at TC+2) is going to make gaaaaaaaaaaarbage. I would guess a few bucks an hour.

So yeah, just ran 6D S17 and LS, wonging in only at TC+2 or better... TC +2 & +3 = $5, TC +4 & +5 = 10, TC >= +6 = 15... Hourly EV = $1.89609. Again, this is 6D so the frequencies would be even less with 8D, meaning the EV would be lower.

You're more than likely playing a losing game with playing mistakes factored in. No one's perfect...

Without doing alllllll of the work (this is why I put that A-Z Card Counting thread out a while back, to show everyone how to do this themselves)... I'd take a guess that with a $1k bankroll you're going to have to play with some risk, plain and simple. My advice, if you want to get play to actually make some money, would be to keep practicing and reading while you save up more of a bankroll. I don't think anyone should even attempt playing in a casino without knowing their hourly EV, average bet, gain per hand, win rate, etc... Which again, is all broken down and shown in my other thread.

If you're going to play with higher risk... and you're willing to wong, I'd just wong in at TC +2 with your max bet ($50). You also need to look up your game more I think. Most S17 games have a positive player edge at TC +1, albeit small. Even betting $20 in a TC +1 gets you on the table sooner, keeps you there longer, and has positive expectations (even if it's less than a dollar per hour). Doing all of this would get you an hourly EV = $10.6646, so about 5x your previous, and up to double digits (assuming flawless play). As you can see why my first advice was to not play and save more, you'd make more with a minimum wage job.

Quote: Romes

This doesn't seem very reasonable to me. So you're not worried about EV, but are you trying to play a break even game for experience, or actually make a little something at least? I've been running EV's in another thread the past few days or so and just from that your 5-15 spread (even if you're only wonging in at TC+2) is going to make gaaaaaaaaaaarbage. I would guess a few bucks an hour.

So yeah, just ran 6D S17 and LS, wonging in only at TC+2 or better... TC +2 & +3 = $5, TC +4 & +5 = 10, TC >= +6 = 15... Hourly EV = $1.89609. Again, this is 6D so the frequencies would be even less with 8D, meaning the EV would be lower.

You're more than likely playing a losing game with playing mistakes factored in. No one's perfect...

Without doing alllllll of the work (this is why I put that A-Z Card Counting thread out a while back, to show everyone how to do this themselves)... I'd take a guess that with a $1k bankroll you're going to have to play with some risk, plain and simple. My advice, if you want to get play to actually make some money, would be to keep practicing and reading while you save up more of a bankroll. I don't think anyone should even attempt playing in a casino without knowing their hourly EV, average bet, gain per hand, win rate, etc... Which again, is all broken down and shown in my other thread.

If you're going to play with higher risk... and you're willing to wong, I'd just wong in at TC +2 with your max bet ($50). You also need to look up your game more I think. Most S17 games have a positive player edge at TC +1, albeit small. Even betting $20 in a TC +1 gets you on the table sooner, keeps you there longer, and has positive expectations (even if it's less than a dollar per hour). Doing all of this would get you an hourly EV = $10.6646, so about 5x your previous, and up to double digits (assuming flawless play). As you can see why my first advice was to not play and save more, you'd make more with a minimum wage job.

So to make 10$ per hour can you tell me RoR and a reasonable TC / bet spread for a 1k bankroll... would apprecaite it alot, taking into account wong in and wong out. 8 deck s 17 75% pen

Thanks ahead of time btw!

Quote: avenged43

Quote: Romes

This doesn't seem very reasonable to me. So you're not worried about EV, but are you trying to play a break even game for experience, or actually make a little something at least? I've been running EV's in another thread the past few days or so and just from that your 5-15 spread (even if you're only wonging in at TC+2) is going to make gaaaaaaaaaaarbage. I would guess a few bucks an hour.

So yeah, just ran 6D S17 and LS, wonging in only at TC+2 or better... TC +2 & +3 = $5, TC +4 & +5 = 10, TC >= +6 = 15... Hourly EV = $1.89609. Again, this is 6D so the frequencies would be even less with 8D, meaning the EV would be lower.

You're more than likely playing a losing game with playing mistakes factored in. No one's perfect...

Without doing alllllll of the work (this is why I put that A-Z Card Counting thread out a while back, to show everyone how to do this themselves)... I'd take a guess that with a $1k bankroll you're going to have to play with some risk, plain and simple. My advice, if you want to get play to actually make some money, would be to keep practicing and reading while you save up more of a bankroll. I don't think anyone should even attempt playing in a casino without knowing their hourly EV, average bet, gain per hand, win rate, etc... Which again, is all broken down and shown in my other thread.

If you're going to play with higher risk... and you're willing to wong, I'd just wong in at TC +2 with your max bet ($50). You also need to look up your game more I think. Most S17 games have a positive player edge at TC +1, albeit small. Even betting $20 in a TC +1 gets you on the table sooner, keeps you there longer, and has positive expectations (even if it's less than a dollar per hour). Doing all of this would get you an hourly EV = $10.6646, so about 5x your previous, and up to double digits (assuming flawless play). As you can see why my first advice was to not play and save more, you'd make more with a minimum wage job.

So to make 10$ per hour can you tell me RoR and a reasonable TC / bet spread for a 1k bankroll... would apprecaite it alot, taking into account wong in and wong out. 8 deck s 17 75% pen

You are interested in a lot of detail. That's okay. You're inquisitive and on a journey. But it will take hundreds of hours of play to have results that get close to your theoretically advantage. You're learning right now. $5 to $25 a hand is about the best you can do with your BR. If you're having fun, and you're running strong, you can occasionally, very occasionally, make a $50 wager. If you get a few hundred down, play smaller. If you win a few hundred, play the same. A percent here or there different strategy is negligible. Just put some time in. Keep notes. Track your wins and losses. And Have fun.

Quote: Greasyjohn

Quote: avenged43

Quote: Romes

This doesn't seem very reasonable to me. So you're not worried about EV, but are you trying to play a break even game for experience, or actually make a little something at least? I've been running EV's in another thread the past few days or so and just from that your 5-15 spread (even if you're only wonging in at TC+2) is going to make gaaaaaaaaaaarbage. I would guess a few bucks an hour.

So yeah, just ran 6D S17 and LS, wonging in only at TC+2 or better... TC +2 & +3 = $5, TC +4 & +5 = 10, TC >= +6 = 15... Hourly EV = $1.89609. Again, this is 6D so the frequencies would be even less with 8D, meaning the EV would be lower.

You're more than likely playing a losing game with playing mistakes factored in. No one's perfect...

Without doing alllllll of the work (this is why I put that A-Z Card Counting thread out a while back, to show everyone how to do this themselves)... I'd take a guess that with a $1k bankroll you're going to have to play with some risk, plain and simple. My advice, if you want to get play to actually make some money, would be to keep practicing and reading while you save up more of a bankroll. I don't think anyone should even attempt playing in a casino without knowing their hourly EV, average bet, gain per hand, win rate, etc... Which again, is all broken down and shown in my other thread.

If you're going to play with higher risk... and you're willing to wong, I'd just wong in at TC +2 with your max bet ($50). You also need to look up your game more I think. Most S17 games have a positive player edge at TC +1, albeit small. Even betting $20 in a TC +1 gets you on the table sooner, keeps you there longer, and has positive expectations (even if it's less than a dollar per hour). Doing all of this would get you an hourly EV = $10.6646, so about 5x your previous, and up to double digits (assuming flawless play). As you can see why my first advice was to not play and save more, you'd make more with a minimum wage job.

So to make 10$ per hour can you tell me RoR and a reasonable TC / bet spread for a 1k bankroll... would apprecaite it alot, taking into account wong in and wong out. 8 deck s 17 75% pen

You are interested in a lot of detail. That's okay. You're inquisitive and on a journey. But it will take hundreds of hours of play to have results that get close to your theoretically advantage. You're learning right now. $5 to $25 a hand is about the best you can do with your BR. If you're having fun, and you're running strong, you can occasionally, very occasionally, make a $50 wager. If you get a few hundred down, play smaller. If you win a few hundred, play the same. A percent here or there different strategy is negligible. Just put some time in. Keep notes. Track your wins and losses. And Have fun.

Now there's one optimistic mother %*$#$% !!! That is the go-getter attitude that I like! If I lost $1000 I assure you I wont be having fun by hey to hell with it that's life ! I did play highly recklessly along with my friend who counts with me and we turned 200 each (so 400) into 1.2k each (2400) in 3 hands, TC 8 martingale betting just for shits and giggles lol... That was highly reckless but worked out I suppose. I just don't know what to do with such a small bank roll.... If I had investors what would be a good bankroll to start making a living at blackjack? I have the laid back personality to not let swings effect me but I need to know mathmatically what would be a good bankroll to make a decent EV with low RoR... lets say 15$ an hour with little heat if I'm a regular? I'm finally giving in since everyone says to get a higher bank roll... where should I start ya'll?

You say you turned $200 into $1,200 in three hands, and you want a detailed strategy to make $15 an hour? With these two sides of your personality at play it's very likely that you'll crash and burn. But if you can laugh while you extricate yourself from the mangled wreck, then what the heck, it's only money. Winning at blackjack is all about playing smart, making plays that give you a few percent lower loss or greater win. Dicipline, being a tortoise, not a hare. Do you want to be a swashbuckler or a card counter?

Quote: Greasyjohn

You say you turned $200 into $1,200 in three hands, and you want a detailed strategy to make $15 an hour? With these two sides of your personality at play it's very likely that you'll crash and burn. But if you can laugh while you extricate yourself from the mangled wreck, then what the heck, it's only money. Winning at blackjack is all about playing smart, making plays that give you a few percent lower loss or greater win. Dicipline, being a tortoise, not a hare. Do you want to be a swashbuckler or a card counter?

Like I said it was a reckless play, I want to be an actual card counter though is why im asking for slow and steady and a decent bankroll if I get investors... and I have a nearby casino but costs me about $30 in gas to get there and back so need to make some decent EV with low RoR. What owuld be a good bankroll?

You're looking for investors, and yet you play recklessly at times? People might love you for your wild dreams, not losing their money. Instead of investors why don't you find a few friends you can carpool with?

Quote: Greasyjohn

You're looking for investors, and yet you play recklessly at times? People might love you for your wild dreams, not losing their money. Instead of investors why don't you find a few friends you can carpool with?

overzealous as f%#^. The first time we ever card counted we did it just for shits and giggles, one time ever, other then that been sticking with TC 4+ 10$ per hand and making out just fine due to good variation. Please keep your high horse comments shoved up your ass where they belong. When you have something half helpful to say hmu till then I am ignoring 100% of the comments you make for your rude and arrogant ego is unnecessary from someone just asking for some nice friendly advice. If you can tell me one time in your entire card counting expierence you havent dont anything at all slightly from the book I'd tell you lieing is a sin and your going to hell, even Colin before being a professional card counter ran 3 $200 hands with a $600 bank roll go pestor him about making a mistake once in life.

Quote: avenged43

overzealous as f%#^...

I'm going to go ahead and say you're being a bit overzealous even right now. You clearly don't know your numbers well enough to even be playing a winning game (as you're not playing a winning game right now). The thought that you'd actually take on investors is scary as hell for both them, and yourself. With all do respect, I believe you're the type of "counter" casino's love. You think you're counting and going to take tons from the casino's, but really you're playing a losing game, just like every ploppy there. The thing that makes it more dangerous is that you 'think' you're playing a winning game, and when you start losing (and you will) you'll think you're just getting bad variance...

I'm going to go ahead and again recommend that you visit my A-Z card counting thread. When you understand EVERYTHING in there, you'll be able to calculate all of your own information, as well as your RoR. Perhaps you'll purchase the casino veritas software that's also plugged in there, so you can run your own sims and figure out your RoR exactly for your specific game/spread/ramp/pen/etc.

Unfortunately, I'm not going to do too much more in the way of numbers, and I'm going to do this to hopefully help you. You shouldn't even step foot in a casino with money as in my opinion you are no where near ready. Until you can post what game you're playing, what the HE is, how you plan to attack it, your hourly EV, your standard deviations, your ROR, etc, you are not ready to play and CERTAINLY not ready to take on investors, especially if these 'investors' are friends whom trust you and think you've done your homework, which you have not.

I tell you this to help you, as a friend. I once thought I was playing a winning game when I started and didn't realize I was shorting my bankroll so bad ruin was inevitable. Once I went back and looked at just why exactly I went bust, read books, ran sims, researched the Wizards Odds site, I was able to correctly determine what I was doing wrong, and all of the other numbers I've mentioned above. That is your homework. I'm just trying to help and get you to do it now before inevitably blowing your bankroll.